01-17-18 11:00 AM
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  1. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    You obviously were watching closely and I agree as another shareholder during this time that Chen did not know the fate of BB10. This is considered heretical by many posters. Chen does nothing by accident according to them.

    I only disagree that BB10 was as hopeless a case as I think you do at the time Chen came into the picture. It was still very new.

    I would sell the next bounce the stock gets. There is no light at the end of the tunnel so far as I can see.

    Posted via CB10
    Except they have growing revenue and market share in their profitable businesses. Analysts who follow the stock and are bullish don't have any meaningful profits from Android phones in their projections. For BlackBerry now, the licensing deals have moderate upside and almost zero risk on the downside.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    01-02-18 07:59 AM
  2. glwerry's Avatar
    I don't understand your point. The decision to drop an OS wouldn't be voted by the board. Have you been brainwashed that BB10 was dropped as part of hiring Chen and taking on the Watsa debt?

    Posted via CB10
    With the understanding that I don't sit on Blackberry's board and wasn't watching the news very closely while all this was taking place.

    I am completely baffled by the statement "The decision to drop an OS wouldn't be voted by the board." Why not?
    Remember, there was more to the decision than just dropping an OS: they dropped ALL of the phone-related business - hardware design, manufacturing, etc.

    This is a HUGE, SEISMIC change in the business' direction which would be very likely to be a board-level decision.

    But, like I've said previously, it's really a pointless argument, isn't it. The boat has sailed ...
    01-02-18 09:04 AM
  3. conite's Avatar

    But, like I've said previously, it's really a pointless argument, isn't it. The boat has sailed ...
    There are people who are desperate to blame Chen for something (not necessarily @markmall) - which is becoming increasingly hard to do in light of what now appears to be a successful turnaround.

    Chen is seen by many as the face of the demise of BB10, where it was clearly the previous management/ownership.
    glwerry likes this.
    01-02-18 09:13 AM
  4. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    You obviously were watching closely and I agree as another shareholder during this time that Chen did not know the fate of BB10. This is considered heretical by many posters. Chen does nothing by accident according to them.

    I only disagree that BB10 was as hopeless a case as I think you do at the time Chen came into the picture. It was still very new.

    I would sell the next bounce the stock gets. There is no light at the end of the tunnel so far as I can see.

    Posted via CB10
    Since I do this for a living, managing client portfolios, I'm telling you Chen was hired for turning around software and dumping hardware. There was plenty of industry commentary at time, explaining the choice of Chen by Watsa and his probable strategy with the existing board if BlackBerry the company was to be saved. I didn't want to see abandonment of hardware by the company as fan, but in hindsight, it's obvious. Licensing was one aspect mentioned back then around BB10 however that morphed into BBAndroid since no one wanted to license BB10.
    glwerry likes this.
    01-02-18 09:15 AM
  5. kvndoom's Avatar
    There are people who are desperate to blame Chen for something (not necessarily @markmall) - which is becoming increasingly hard to do in light of what now appears to be a successful turnaround.

    Chen is seen by many as the face of the demise of BB10, where it was clearly the previous management/ownership.
    There's a certain scorched earth mentality on this forum. They want so badly for Blackberry to fail just because it killed off their beloved OS in order to survive.
    glwerry and anon(9803228) like this.
    01-02-18 09:19 AM
  6. stlabrat's Avatar
    if my memory serve me right, there were two bids to take BB private, (1) Chen's boss- vision to make it software company like most of analysts thought it is easy money to be made without hardware (oh, boy they are wrong... just look at the software only chaps all want to come back to do hardware, including google... but how many times analysts got long correct view?). (2) Mike L with another VC - very late to submit the bid... It forced hand of party of (1) to show hands it can raise 4B... within the Monday deadline... and force the party of (2) to complete the complete the financial assessment... end both were short... party of (1) didn;t have enough $, and party of (2) didn't have enough time meet the dead line of Monday...so party of (1) pull a rabbit of 1B debt financing and BOD happily accepted instead of extended deadline that possibly will goes to the other way (the lady prefer to get out of the mud rather than deal with another fight...of course, with one of tha party bid on the proposal got conflict interests, even it recuse himself... still got vast influence on the board, the way it end up was not surprise). The board want to keep analysts happy, take party of (2) proposal would possibly impact their future career IMHO. the game of chicken was better than any movie. with benefit of some players were well documented now: (1) TH got his 10 million (2) lady BOD got favor rating by analysts (3) Chen's boss got 6% interests paid every year until later (changed to lower % after few years) - at 2013 housing down turn still in effect, 6% was not bad). the glory goes to the rabbit... (very smart move to win the take over game). At the time BB got no debt prior to 2013... (funny, the current analysts - some of the same analysts if they have not yet retired, thought the hardware are necessary and software really didn't have that much value to play - easy to copy by chinese for example... like baidu, weibo, wechat...etc.etc.). As for me, can't wait to see what my loyety worth after 2 years... will glad to exchange for a 5G handset... with good design and hardware/software integration...
    01-02-18 09:37 AM
  7. glwerry's Avatar
    There's a certain scorched earth mentality on this forum. They want so badly for Blackberry to fail just because it killed off their beloved OS in order to survive.
    That's an astute observation. In a way it's a bit like the very disturbing trend in North American politics, where we have largely abandoned middle grounds and moderate positions and taken the attitude that the opposition can have NO wisdom in their arguments/positions.

    It's actually quite concerning to me in the political sense, as we increasingly cluster at the extremes and lose the middle ground, which is where much of the really good work happens.

    So, regardless of how much (if any) of a role Mr. Chen has played in the death of BB10, I rejoice because BB is still around and I can still get a phone with a PHYSICAL keyboard with BB's name on it.
    john_v likes this.
    01-02-18 09:41 AM
  8. conite's Avatar
    if my memory serve me right, there were two bids to take BB private, (1) Chen's boss- vision to make it software company like most of analysts thought it is easy money to be made without hardware (oh, boy they are wrong... just look at the software only chaps all want to come back to do hardware, including google... but how many times analysts got long correct view?). (2) Mike L with another VC - very late to submit the bid... It forced hand of party of (1) to show hands it can raise 4B... within the Monday deadline... and force the party of (2) to complete the complete the financial assessment... end both were short... party of (1) didn;t have enough $, and party of (2) didn't have enough time meet the dead line of Monday...so party of (1) pull a rabbit of 1B debt financing and BOD happily accepted instead of extended deadline that possibly will goes to the other way (the lady prefer to get out of the mud rather than deal with another fight...of course, with one of tha party bid on the proposal got conflict interests, even it recuse himself... still got vast influence on the board, the way it end up was not surprise). The board want to keep analysts happy, take party of (2) proposal would possibly impact their future career IMHO. the game of chicken was better than any movie. with benefit of some players were well documented now: (1) TH got his 10 million (2) lady BOD got favor rating by analysts (3) Chen's boss got 6% interests paid every year until later (changed to lower % after few years) - at 2013 housing down turn still in effect, 6% was not bad). the glory goes to the rabbit... (very smart move to win the take over game). At the time BB got no debt prior to 2013... (funny, the current analysts - some of the same analysts if they have not yet retired, thought the hardware are necessary and software really didn't have that much value to play - easy to copy by chinese for example... like baidu, weibo, wechat...etc.etc.). As for me, can't wait to see what my loyety worth after 2 years... will glad to exchange for a 5G handset... with good design and hardware/software integration...
    Please, please..... paragraphs!
    zephyr613 likes this.
    01-02-18 09:43 AM
  9. glwerry's Avatar
    if my memory serve me right, there were two bids to take BB private, (1) Chen's boss- vision to make it software company like most of analysts thought it is easy money to be made without hardware (oh, boy they are wrong... just look at the software only chaps all want to come back to do hardware, including google... but how many times analysts got long correct view?). (2) Mike L with another VC - very late to submit the bid... It forced hand of party of (1) to show hands it can raise 4B... within the Monday deadline... and force the party of (2) to complete the complete the financial assessment... end both were short... party of (1) didn;t have enough $, and party of (2) didn't have enough time meet the dead line of Monday...so party of (1) pull a rabbit of 1B debt financing and BOD happily accepted instead of extended deadline that possibly will goes to the other way (the lady prefer to get out of the mud rather than deal with another fight...of course, with one of tha party bid on the proposal got conflict interests, even it recuse himself... still got vast influence on the board, the way it end up was not surprise). The board want to keep analysts happy, take party of (2) proposal would possibly impact their future career IMHO. the game of chicken was better than any movie. with benefit of some players were well documented now: (1) TH got his 10 million (2) lady BOD got favor rating by analysts (3) Chen's boss got 6% interests paid every year until later (changed to lower % after few years) - at 2013 housing down turn still in effect, 6% was not bad). the glory goes to the rabbit... (very smart move to win the take over game). At the time BB got no debt prior to 2013... (funny, the current analysts - some of the same analysts if they have not yet retired, thought the hardware are necessary and software really didn't have that much value to play - easy to copy by chinese for example... like baidu, weibo, wechat...etc.etc.). As for me, can't wait to see what my loyety worth after 2 years... will glad to exchange for a 5G handset... with good design and hardware/software integration...
    Dude!
    I got LOST trying to read your post.

    If you break things into paragraphs it would be MUCH easier to read, and maybe go a bit easier on the acronyms. "TH" is who???
    "lady BOD" is what??
    01-02-18 09:44 AM
  10. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    There's a certain scorched earth mentality on this forum. They want so badly for Blackberry to fail just because it killed off their beloved OS in order to survive.
    There is a tremendous amount of passion that I've never really understood, because, while I have been a huge fan of BB's innovations surrounding professional communications, I never felt an emotional attachment to either the brand or the hardware.

    It doesn't take a conspiracy to explain BlackBerry's decline in handsets! Just because some of us prefer BB10 to Android doesn't mean it was positioned to defeat Android or iOS, or carve out a sustainable niche that neither Amazon or Microsoft, with many more resources, could have managed.

    My passion is for my work, not my tools. I like technology that makes me effective. And since I still have an old-fashioned work flow built around my PC, supplemented by near continuous use of a handheld replacement for MS Outlook, which I dislike running on the PC for resource, stability and security reasons, BB10 is my preferred technology, for the time being.

    But I appreciate that many people like their mobile devices to do other things, such as being a digital wallet, entertainment device, etc. I prefer to use secondary devices for those functions and keep my work device running with as few distractions as possible.

    My assumption is that most people end up with tools they can live with comfortably, though not all end up with the optimal tools for their needs because people's attention spans and interests are limited.

    The marketplace rewards great business plans, well executed, much more than it rewards technical innovation or superiority. Even if we grant that BlackBerry had the better OS (which is obviously debatable, depending on one's definition of "better"), there is no reason to conclude that it should have outlasted weaker competitors. That's just not how the business of technology works.

    BB10 failed to gain traction for a number of key reasons, and BlackBerry was losing money at a breakneck pace by mid 2013, when the board ousted the CEO who had overseen the BB10 launch and brought in John Chen to save the company, which he did rather brilliantly, showing calmness and flexibility, combined with a clear vision of how to utilize the company's assets in profitable markets where they still could gain a competitive advantage.

    One has to really suspend objectivity to make John Chen the bad guy in the BlackBerry story.


    Posted with my trusty Z10
    01-02-18 09:46 AM
  11. conite's Avatar

    One has to really suspend objectivity to make John Chen the bad guy in the BlackBerry story.
    So much this.
    01-02-18 09:50 AM
  12. eshropshire's Avatar
    I don't understand your point. The decision to drop an OS wouldn't be voted by the board. Have you been brainwashed that BB10 was dropped as part of hiring Chen and taking on the Watsa debt?

    Posted via CB10
    A major strategy shift from a phone company to an enterprise software company would definitely be voted on by the Board. The purpose and responsibility of a Board is to watch over the share holders interest. I don't know why you keep going on about the debt. The people responsible for running BlackBerry is the Board. When there is disunity on a Board you have public fights. You get shareholder proxy battles. None of th is has been happening at BlackBerry.

    If everything you have been alleging about the one debt holder controlling the company vs the Board was happening, the institutional investors would have filed lawsuits long ago.
    01-02-18 10:41 AM
  13. stlabrat's Avatar
    Dude!
    I got LOST trying to read your post.

    If you break things into paragraphs it would be MUCH easier to read, and maybe go a bit easier on the acronyms. "TH" is who???
    "lady BOD" is what??
    TH- CEO of BB at 2013. Lady BOD - BS she is still on board.. (since 2007..she call the shot after Chen's boss recuse himself due to conflict interest). and BB still a public traded company, far from the investor was told to take it private at the time (like Dell). BlackBerry Ltd Board of Directors
    break things? BB was break into pieces... not easy to piece together... not even after two books and many MBA studies... not by me for sure... (corp take over case study is missing strangely amont them all.. waiting to be discovered possibly after 10 years?).
    01-02-18 11:41 AM
  14. joeldf's Avatar
    TH- CEO of BB at 2013. Lady BOD - BS she is still on board.. (since 2007..she call the shot after Chen's boss recuse himself due to conflict interest). and BB still a public traded company, far from the investor was told to take it private at the time (like Dell). BlackBerry Ltd Board of Directors
    break things? BB was break into pieces... not easy to piece together... not even after two books and many MBA studies... not by me for sure... (corp take over case study is missing strangely amont them all.. waiting to be discovered possibly after 10 years?).
    Good Lord man.

    Spell things out.

    Use proper punctuation.

    Thorsten Heins, I figured out. Still don't know what the frack "Lady BOD -BS" is supposed to be.
    glwerry and zephyr613 like this.
    01-02-18 12:00 PM
  15. brookie229's Avatar
    Thorsten Heins, I figured out. Still don't know what the frack "Lady BOD -BS" is supposed to be.
    I think he is referring to a woman on the board of directors.
    01-02-18 12:02 PM
  16. glwerry's Avatar
    Good Lord man.

    Spell things out.

    Use proper punctuation.

    Thorsten Heins, I figured out. Still don't know what the frack "Lady BOD -BS" is supposed to be.
    Thanks!

    I remember reading an account of one of Canada's foremost defense lawyers. In his first case he used a huge, fancy word in the courtroom. He could see the jury's eyes glaze over and I believe that he lost the case.
    He resolved to NEVER use language in the courtroom that an ordinary person couldn't understand.

    If @stlabrat continues to write in rambling single paragraph form I will just ignore his posts. Pretty simple.
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    01-02-18 12:05 PM
  17. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Thanks!

    I remember reading an account of one of Canada's foremost defense lawyers. In his first case he used a huge, fancy word in the courtroom. He could see the jury's eyes glaze over and I believe that he lost the case.
    He resolved to NEVER use language in the courtroom that an ordinary person couldn't understand.

    If @stlabrat continues to write in rambling single paragraph form I will just ignore his posts. Pretty simple.
    I'm pretty hard on people grammar wise and had difficulty following the comments. However, the issue may be geographic unfortunately.
    01-02-18 12:08 PM
  18. BriannaJL's Avatar
    Good Lord man.

    Spell things out.

    Use proper punctuation.

    Thorsten Heins, I figured out. Still don't know what the frack "Lady BOD -BS" is supposed to be.
    Lol .. my guess is that when he wrote "lady BOD" he meant Barbara Stymiest.
    01-02-18 12:09 PM
  19. glwerry's Avatar
    I'm pretty hard on people grammar wise and had difficulty following the comments. However, the issue may be geographic unfortunately.
    Very possibly.

    That's partly why I tried to offer constructive comments - like breaking into paragraphs.
    01-02-18 12:12 PM
  20. stlabrat's Avatar
    Lady of BOD - BS - https://www.cifar.ca/profiles/barbara-stymiest/
    chair of BOD at 2013...
    01-02-18 12:13 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    Very possibly.

    That's partly why I tried to offer constructive comments - like breaking into paragraphs.
    People with English as a second language need to take a deep breath, avoid shorthand, use short sentences, and space their thoughts.
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    01-02-18 12:15 PM
  22. stlabrat's Avatar
    thx. conite. i thought many claimed to follow the BB "closely" would know all the players front and behind scheme. (or read the annual report of BB around 2013). thx for your kindness.
    01-02-18 12:23 PM
  23. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    thx. conite. i thought many claimed to follow the BB "closely" would know all the players front and behind scheme. (or read the annual report of BB around 2013). thx for your kindness.
    I follow the business pretty closely, but, other than Prem Watsa, I couldn't name anyone behind the scenes. But I am happy to have posts from speakers of other languages!

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    01-02-18 12:29 PM
  24. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    thx. conite. i thought many claimed to follow the BB "closely" would know all the players front and behind scheme. (or read the annual report of BB around 2013). thx for your kindness.
    I understand your points in general from timeline and I'm son of non-native English native speaker. No disrespect intended on my earlier reply
    01-02-18 12:36 PM
  25. bb_geezer's Avatar
    Not sure what the huge fuss here is. This could be seen far, far away.

    In fact, the day Blackberry announced they were moving away from BB10 to Android, it made the company utterly meaningless. (The way this forum tried to talk up the Priv and KeyOne was hilarious).

    Seriously, what's the point of Blackberry if it's on Android? Whatever you think about Android is not the point. The point is, with Blackberry pumping Android, it's just another set of phones (in an already huge list of phones) running the Google OS.

    So, apart from discussion & support for older BBOS and BB10 software/hardware, I'm not even sure what's the point of this forum any more? Far better off discussing the new phones on an Android forum.
    Newfangled likes this.
    01-02-18 01:28 PM
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