01-17-18 11:00 AM
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  1. DonHB's Avatar
    unfortunately the tcl products are so poor (read: pricepoint) that i've moved on from considering them. however, a bb10 version would entice me back. if the phones came down to a more reasonable $400cdn, i would tack on $100 for bb10. but something would have to be done about the browser.

    Posted via CBX
    I would pay the same, if they would fix the browser and would address the Krack question. I may even pay more if they would publicly state only devices have reached EoL and are going to wait wait to see actual interest AFTER delivering an autoloader.
    12-28-17 02:15 PM
  2. DonHB's Avatar
    Dude, this has been debated ENDLESSLY on these forums. Chen was hired to turn BB around, to profitability, AFTER THE BOARD HAD MADE THE DECISION TO ABANDON BB10. So, how would he suggest a course correction?

    You also mention a BB10 autoloader for TCL products - WHO IS GOING TO PAY THE DEVELOPMENT COSTS FOR THIS?

    Not going to happen!
    Hearsay regarding board decision? CEO couldn't address the question putting numbers to the course correction?

    The hardware already exists. So, this is within their purview as a software company and developer of Neutrino. I was asking people to put dollars behind their desires to make things somewhat less hypothetical. For no charge, to chance at all.
    12-28-17 02:35 PM
  3. glwerry's Avatar
    Hearsay regarding board decision? CEO couldn't address the question putting numbers to the course correction?

    The hardware already exists. So, this is within their purview as a software company and developer of Neutrino. I was asking people to put dollars behind their desires to make things somewhat less hypothetical. For no charge, to chance at all.
    I suppose the board decision would come under the category of hearsay, however it has been stated repeatedly, by people who follow things like that very closely, that Chen was brought in, as I said, to wind down BB10 and bring the corporation back to profitability.

    The reason I was so emphatic on the idea of a BB10 autoloader is that there have been numerous posts about this sort of idea already - calculating approximate development costs to do that sort of thing. The costs are huge - the fact that the hardware already exists is TRIVIAL - the cost comes when you have to assemble a team of people to develop NEW drivers for BB10 to talk to the new hardware. Remember, the BB10 development team has been laid off and is scattered far and wide.
    This is NOT something that could be done as open-source, either - there's just too much development.
    12-28-17 03:09 PM
  4. Invictus0's Avatar
    again, i have never seen a symbian phone. thousands of bbos, hundreds of bb10, not one symbian or windoze for that matter. perspective, yes.

    Posted via CBX
    So the data is lying then? The world is a big place.
    12-28-17 03:09 PM
  5. glwerry's Avatar
    I may even pay more if they would publicly state only devices have reached EoL and are going to wait wait to see actual interest AFTER delivering an autoloader.
    I'm sorry, but that sentence just makes no sense to me.
    It sounds to me like you are saying "if BB were to build an autoloader for BB10 for end-of-life devices (which ones?) I would pay more than $100 for that".

    That's just not even close to the cash that would be required: even if EVERY remaining BB10 owner committed to $200, I doubt you would have enough money to entice BB to go back into the phone business.

    Remember, BB as a corporation has ENTIRELY EXITED THE PHONE BUSINESS. They are only licensing the brand to 3rd parties (currently TCL) and hardening Android to install on TCL phones.
    12-28-17 03:15 PM
  6. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Hearsay regarding board decision? CEO couldn't address the question putting numbers to the course correction?

    The hardware already exists. So, this is within their purview as a software company and developer of Neutrino. I was asking people to put dollars behind their desires to make things somewhat less hypothetical. For no charge, to chance at all.
    You'd have a better chance of success for BB10 if the Red Cross ran the fundraiser. BlackBerry's responsibility is to it's shareholders. The Red Cross is a charity for causes that are not about profit. Of course, priority wise, BB10 does belong at the bottom of the list.
    glwerry likes this.
    12-28-17 04:02 PM
  7. markmall's Avatar
    That doesn't sound normal. Are you running any Android apps on your device?
    Agree. I've never had this issue. Also, Supertube app on BB10 destroys the YouTube app on Android.

    Posted via CB10
    12-29-17 01:23 AM
  8. DonHB's Avatar
    I'm sorry, but that sentence just makes no sense to me.
    It sounds to me like you are saying "if BB were to build an autoloader for BB10 for end-of-life devices (which ones?) I would pay more than $100 for that".

    That's just not even close to the cash that would be required: even if EVERY remaining BB10 owner committed to $200, I doubt you would have enough money to entice BB to go back into the phone business.

    Remember, BB as a corporation has ENTIRELY EXITED THE PHONE BUSINESS. They are only licensing the brand to 3rd parties (currently TCL) and hardening Android to install on TCL phones.
    No. I am saying if they state there is a chance (based on customer interest) that this is not a one off event I would pay more.

    Also, it appears that Qualcomm makes the source code to their drivers available for platforms they support. I suspect that QNX has experience taking Linux drivers and porting them to Neutrino. And you seem to suggest that BlackBerry has no role in assisting their licensees with getting their Android OS to run on actual hardware? Do licensees integrate drivers into the hardened Linux or is it BlackBerry and how often is BlackBerry's version of Linux updated making this frequent occurrence?

    Just wanted to add that I would chose the autoloader above any trade-in offer for a BlackBerry Mobile device. It will be interesting to see what alternatives to Apple and Google exist in 2020.
    Last edited by DonHB; 12-29-17 at 10:13 PM.
    12-29-17 09:49 PM
  9. conite's Avatar
    It will be interesting to see what alternatives to Apple and Google exist in 2020.
    Spoiler alert: none.
    12-30-17 12:03 AM
  10. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Spoiler alert: none.
    In terms of a mobile OS on small handheld phones for consumers , you're right. But in terms of mobile work, Microsoft will still be a critical player, as they are today.

    Most enterprise employees could be adequately supported with a portable Windows 10 PC (tablet, 2-in1, or laptop) with LTE running an Enterprise VOIP solution for voice and text. This would give them a single device (and phone number) for all of their work at any location, saving the organization money in hardware, cellular costs, security costs, training, and support.

    Road warrior types might still need a separate phone, but commuters and folks who work from home would not.

    Your assumption that convergence only moves from PC towards mobile is a consumer-oriented perspective. There are other plausible scenarios, and one size does not fit all organizations.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-30-17 11:34 AM
  11. Emaderton3's Avatar
    In terms of a mobile OS on small handheld phones for consumers , you're right. But in terms of mobile work, Microsoft will still be a critical player, as they are today.

    Most enterprise employees could be adequately supported with a portable Windows 10 PC (tablet, 2-in1, or laptop) with LTE running an Enterprise VOIP solution for voice and text. This would give them a single device (and phone number) for all of their work at any location, saving the organization money in hardware, cellular costs, security costs, training, and support.

    Road warrior types might still need a separate phone, but commuters and folks who work from home would not.

    Your assumption that convergence only moves from PC towards mobile is a consumer-oriented perspective. There are other plausible scenarios, and one size does not fit all organizations.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    Especially those of us who do a lot of calculations with large data sets.
    12-30-17 12:12 PM
  12. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Most enterprise employees could be adequately supported with a portable Windows 10 PC (tablet, 2-in1, or laptop) with LTE running an Enterprise VOIP solution for voice and text. This would give them a single device (and phone number) for all of their work at any location, saving the organization money in hardware, cellular costs, security costs, training, and support.

    Road warrior types might still need a separate phone, but commuters and folks who work from home would not.
    You keep posting this, and, sure, you and a handful of people might prefer it, but the vast majority of people don't want to carry a tablet or laptop around with them everywhere - that's what their smartphone is for.

    Though chip and battery technology will make what you want POSSIBLE, it isn't ever going to make it popular (or even tolerable) for the vast majority of people - and thus device manufacturers will always treat it as a niche product - if they keep making them at all.

    I think we'll see those devices for a couple of years, with limited adoption, and then they'll largely disappear, with maybe a couple of manufacturers making a mid-range device for the niche demand.

    Smartphones are here to stay for the foreseeable future.
    12-31-17 12:29 AM
  13. markmall's Avatar
    Dude, this has been debated ENDLESSLY on these forums. Chen was hired to turn BB around, to profitability, AFTER THE BOARD HAD MADE THE DECISION TO ABANDON BB10. So, how would he suggest a course correction?

    You also mention a BB10 autoloader for TCL products - WHO IS GOING TO PAY THE DEVELOPMENT COSTS FOR THIS?

    Not going to happen!
    Did the Board really vote (or decide) on dropping BB10 or is this just another pronouncement that bounces around the echo chamber.

    I don't think this would be a Board decision. I think the Board is passive and does whatever Chen and Prem want.

    I would bet that the board didn't know much more than we did about the fate of BB10 as it unfolded.

    Posted via CB10
    elfabio80 and DonHB like this.
    12-31-17 02:40 AM
  14. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    You keep posting this, and, sure, you and a handful of people might prefer it, but the vast majority of people don't want to carry a tablet or laptop around with them everywhere - that's what their smartphone is for.

    Though chip and battery technology will make what you want POSSIBLE, it isn't ever going to make it popular (or even tolerable) for the vast majority of people - and thus device manufacturers will always treat it as a niche product - if they keep making them at all.

    I think we'll see those devices for a couple of years, with limited adoption, and then they'll largely disappear, with maybe a couple of manufacturers making a mid-range device for the niche demand.

    Smartphones are here to stay for the foreseeable future.
    I have no doubt that smartphones are here to stay for the mass market. Heck the vast majority of people don't know how to do much more than email, surf the Web and play games on a PC, so why would they want anything more than a smart phone, anyway!

    But for those of us who can't do any MORE meaningful work with an Android or iOS smart phone in 2017 than we could we a BlackBerry circa 2007, a tablet, 2-in-1, or laptop with all day, always on, always connected capability would be a game-changer.

    We ALREADY have to carry a Windows or Mac PC almost everywhere we go, and would ditch the smartphone much of the time if it didn't take so long to boot and connect to LTE on a Surface-type PC.

    I'm pretty sure this is going to be a very profitable niche for the companies investing in it, which currently includes Microsoft, Qualcomm, Intel, HP, Lenovo, and Asus.

    I already spend 7x what I spend on smartphones on PCS, buying a $3-4K laptop every other year. The "mobile workstation" laptop business (Dell, HE, Lenovo, etc.) . This may not be a market you're familiar with, and it's oriented ton professionals rather than consumers, but it's real, nonetheless.

    I may never completely give up my smartphone, but it would quickly become my third or fourth-string device, as there is so little actual work that I can do on it.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    Last edited by bb10adopter111; 12-31-17 at 04:01 AM.
    12-31-17 03:48 AM
  15. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    12-31-17 03:59 AM
  16. conite's Avatar
    Did the Board really vote (or decide) on dropping BB10 or is this just another pronouncement that bounces around the echo chamber.

    I don't think this would be a Board decision. I think the Board is passive and does whatever Chen and Prem want.

    I would bet that the board didn't know much more than we did about the fate of BB10 as it unfolded.

    Posted via CB10
    BB10 was a hail Mary to save the dying device business. It was clear as day that it was an unmitigated disaster by the summer of 2013 - massive losses and no developer buy-in.

    The BoD voted to turf Thorsten, and put the company up for sale.

    With no buyers, Prem came along with the money to keep BlackBerry alive, and it was decided to hire Chen - a software specialist as CEO.

    Although BlackBerry still had massive component commitments to run through, there was little doubt as to the ultimate fate of BB10.
    glwerry likes this.
    12-31-17 07:45 AM
  17. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    BB10 was a hail Mary to save the dying device business. It was clear as day that it was an unmitigated disaster by the summer of 2013 - massive losses and no developer buy-in.

    The BoD voted to turf Thorsten, and put the company up for sale.

    With no buyers, Prem came along with the money to keep BlackBerry alive, and it was decided to hire Chen - a software specialist as CEO.

    Although BlackBerry still had massive component commitments to run through, there was little doubt as to the ultimate fate of BB10.
    ^ This is all factual history, watched closely in real time by many of us. For users the component commitments were kind of fortuitous, because they led to the Passport!

    But, whatever your thought about the quality, value and potential of BB10, please don't dispute the facts unless you present actual evidence to support your alternate theory.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    rayporsche likes this.
    12-31-17 07:51 AM
  18. joeldf's Avatar

    But, whatever your thought about the quality, value and potential of BB10, please don't dispute the facts unless you present actual evidence to support your alternate theory.
    Impossible on this forum... Feelings are more important than facts
    12-31-17 12:53 PM
  19. markmall's Avatar
    ^ This is all factual history, watched closely in real time by many of us. For users the component commitments were kind of fortuitous, because they led to the Passport!

    But, whatever your thought about the quality, value and potential of BB10, please don't dispute the facts unless you present actual evidence to support your alternate theory.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    I was watching closely as well and don't agree with all of these alleged facts. Does this mean I can't post on Crackberry because I'm a heretic?

    Posted via CB10
    DonHB likes this.
    12-31-17 02:19 PM
  20. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I was watching closely as well and don't agree with all of these alleged facts. Does this mean I can't post on Crackberry because I'm a heretic?

    Posted via CB10
    Of course not. Please post whatever you like! Just don't expect to be taken very seriously unless you support your "heretical" ideas with some objective facts.



    Posted with my trusty Z10
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    12-31-17 02:31 PM
  21. glwerry's Avatar
    Did the Board really vote (or decide) on dropping BB10 or is this just another pronouncement that bounces around the echo chamber.

    I don't think this would be a Board decision. I think the Board is passive and does whatever Chen and Prem want.

    I would bet that the board didn't know much more than we did about the fate of BB10 as it unfolded.

    Posted via CB10
    Well, at the end of the day, it's really a pointless argument : someone in authority at BlackBerry made the decision to abandon BB10 and shift the focus of the company to software.
    ppeters914 likes this.
    01-01-18 10:23 AM
  22. eshropshire's Avatar
    Did the Board really vote (or decide) on dropping BB10 or is this just another pronouncement that bounces around the echo chamber.

    I don't think this would be a Board decision. I think the Board is passive and does whatever Chen and Prem want.

    I would bet that the board didn't know much more than we did about the fate of BB10 as it unfolded.

    Posted via CB10
    If that was the case then the whole Board should have been fired and a massive investor lawsuit taken place for fraud and negligence.

    Not the case the Board is professional and made good and wise decisions based on BlackBerry's financial condition in the second half of 2013. I get completely lost trying to understand how you draw your conclusions. By the end of 2013 the Board had two options left breakup the company or transform the company. The decision of the Board of directors was clear they hired a CEO with great enterprise software experience and zero hardware experience. The BOARD hired Chen, not one man. Members of corporate boards have a fiduciary duty and are legally required to fulfill their duty.
    01-01-18 05:08 PM
  23. markmall's Avatar
    If that was the case then the whole Board should have been fired and a massive investor lawsuit taken place for fraud and negligence.

    Not the case the Board is professional and made good and wise decisions based on BlackBerry's financial condition in the second half of 2013. I get completely lost trying to understand how you draw your conclusions. By the end of 2013 the Board had two options left breakup the company or transform the company. The decision of the Board of directors was clear they hired a CEO with great enterprise software experience and zero hardware experience. The BOARD hired Chen, not one man. Members of corporate boards have a fiduciary duty and are legally required to fulfill their duty.
    I don't understand your point. The decision to drop an OS wouldn't be voted by the board. Have you been brainwashed that BB10 was dropped as part of hiring Chen and taking on the Watsa debt?

    Posted via CB10
    01-02-18 01:46 AM
  24. curves2000's Avatar
    With regards to the board and their decision to hire John Chen and the outcome of BlackBerry 10, here is how I see it.

    The board saw in the summer of 2013 that BlackBerry 10 was not gaining the traction a lot of people thought it would. The billions that had been spent and the fact that billions and billions more would have been needed to attempt to try and get the handset and BlackBerry 10 business to gain additional marketshare. It was a fight that would have cost a ton of money with very little chance of success.

    John Chen was brought in as a software and services guy who had experience in turnarounds. He had a plan to try and have BlackBerry return to its roots of security and use some of its talents in that area in different business applications.

    I don't think "killing BB10" was a condition of his hire or that he had made the decision to kill it when he was hired. BlackBerry 10 wasn't very successful but at the time in 2013 BlackBerry might have had an installed base of 60+ million users.

    Looking back on it I do think that John Chen tried to deal with the hardware business as best as possible given the financial straights with the company. How much marketing dollars can you throw at the problem when your BlackBerry? How much development could occur? How much can you pay for Instagram, Netflix or other big name important apps? A million? Ten million? I am sure they would have developed those apps if somebody paid $100 million

    They were losing I believe at one point, $500 million a quarter. The upper levels of the Canadian government were involved with assisting a fast tracking of a tax refund to help give them a lifeline while real estate and other asset sales were being completed. This was in conjunction to the $1 billion debt issue that BlackBerry did to stabilize the company.

    Looking back on how serious the financial situation got and how many people lost their jobs it's become a pretty resilient success story so far. I hope in can continue because as a shareholder from 2011, I need it to turn around and see some growth!

    Posted via CB10
    01-02-18 03:43 AM
  25. markmall's Avatar

    I don't think "killing BB10" was a condition of his hire or that he had made the decision to kill it when he was hired. BlackBerry 10 wasn't very successful but at the time in 2013 BlackBerry might have had an installed base of 60+ million users.

    ... I hope in can continue because as a shareholder from 2011, I need it to turn around and see some growth!

    Posted via CB10
    You obviously were watching closely and I agree as another shareholder during this time that Chen did not know the fate of BB10. This is considered heretical by many posters. Chen does nothing by accident according to them.

    I only disagree that BB10 was as hopeless a case as I think you do at the time Chen came into the picture. It was still very new.

    I would sell the next bounce the stock gets. There is no light at the end of the tunnel so far as I can see.

    Posted via CB10
    01-02-18 05:39 AM
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