01-17-18 12:00 PM
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  1. Invictus0's Avatar
    No, I'm not waiting for the issues to fix themselves. I have been on with "Tech" support, 3x BBOS10.3.3.2205 reinstalls. It is only the native OS browser that does that. @blackberryhelp can't help. Just states that they cannot release any software updates in public. I have loaded Google Play + androids since, using Cobalt232 process. I can use the Android Browser, AlphaBrowser ok. Just NOT the BlackBerry Browser.
    That's probably why, some Android apps on BB10 can degrade system performance. Try opening your Android apps and then close them through Device monitor and see if that helps? If so one of your apps is likely using a lot of resources that is causing stability issues.
    stlabrat likes this.
    12-27-17 12:30 PM
  2. app_Developer's Avatar
    SDR was an afterthought. I was thinking more of DSP. People have been using GPUs as DSPs on the desktop for a while and figured it could be time to start doing similar things in mobile. With Neutrino it may be possible to have a single OS (and perhaps a single instance of it) running on the device making it possible to more efficiently determine the use of the GPU at any time. Conceptually, but overly simplified, a Tegra like SoC (and some Tesla inside) with radios added, software defined or not that adopts a mesh architecture like Intel is beginning to do. Taking some of the fast sleep/wake aspects from current CPUs into the GPU would make it more battery friendly.
    But why? You talk about all the problems that would have to be overcome to use the GPU for these tasks.

    But why bother? Why use the GPU for these tasks at all?
    12-27-17 01:22 PM
  3. bergmannap's Avatar
    Problem was there way before Android installs...3x clean OS reinstalls prior to droid...no change in behavoiur. All other apps work fantastic...just Native Web Browser that just minimizes and immediately shuts down leaving only the square icon of a newly opened app. Incidentally, I've done same on Q10 with BBOS10.3.3.2205, and the problem isn't there unlike my "Classic".
    12-27-17 02:53 PM
  4. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Problem was there way before Android installs...3x clean OS reinstalls prior to droid...no change in behavoiur. All other apps work fantastic...just Native Web Browser that just minimizes and immediately shuts down leaving only the square icon of a newly opened app. Incidentally, I've done same on Q10 with BBOS10.3.3.2205, and the problem isn't there unlike my "Classic".
    Probably time for you to prepare for the move to Android/IOS. Here, you're just going to vent but not accomplish much since BlackBerry doesn't really support BB10 regarding your issues. If clean reinstall doesn't fix your problem, what's left?
    12-27-17 02:59 PM
  5. DonHB's Avatar
    But why? You talk about all the problems that would have to be overcome to use the GPU for these tasks.

    But why bother? Why use the GPU for these tasks at all?
    Homogeneous resources make for more flexibility in their allocation and allow the reduction in the number of hardware and software components. The GPU is becoming more general purpose as more and more applications have found use for them like AI, AR, DSP, etc. How many transistors are tied up in special purpose DSPs? Why not reallocate them from the DSPs to make a more powerful and flexible GPU in the SoC? The ADCs and DACs would of course remain in the newly architected SoC.
    12-27-17 04:05 PM
  6. app_Developer's Avatar
    Homogeneous resources make for more flexibility in their allocation and allow the reduction in the number of hardware and software components. The GPU is becoming more general purpose as more and more applications have found use for them like AI, AR, DSP, etc. How many transistors are tied up in special purpose DSPs? Why not reallocate them from the DSPs to make a more powerful and flexible GPU in the SoC? The ADCs and DACs would of course remain in the newly architected SoC.
    What you just said is the opposite of what engineers at Qualcomm and Apple seem to think. Why?

    I would offer it’s because they are optimizing for user experience. You seem to be fishing for any idea that might save neutrino on phones.

    Totally different design objectives.
    12-27-17 04:10 PM
  7. DonHB's Avatar
    What you just said is the opposite of what engineers at Qualcomm and Apple seem to think. Why?

    I would offer it’s because they are optimizing for user experience. You seem to be fishing for any idea that might save neutrino on phones.

    Totally different design objectives.
    I would guess they are optimizing for Android/Linux not user experience. I am suggesting that the GPU can be put to more purposes and in turn simplify the software stack.
    12-27-17 04:39 PM
  8. EFats's Avatar
    I have plenty of iOS devices sitting around. Nothing wrong with them, personal choice.
    12-27-17 07:02 PM
  9. EFats's Avatar
    The facts speak for themselves. BB10 had a horribly small market share even at its peak. You or I have tried BB10 but something like 95%+ of the users have NEVER touched a BB10 devices.

    The bulk of the devices that have ever been offered do NOT run BB10. That implies users were not given a true choice.

    Not saying it is Android's "fault" but you can't say the users have tried it and declared a winner. No, the people have been given Android and declared it was good enough.

    That's just the way tech has worked, before smartphones there was the PC, the browser, office suites, etc the list goes on. The thing that people get bundled with wins every time. Most people do not care enough to seek out alternatives.
    12-27-17 07:09 PM
  10. Soulstream's Avatar
    The facts speak for themselves. BB10 had a horribly small market share even at its peak. You or I have tried BB10 but something like 95%+ of the users have NEVER touched a BB10 devices.

    The bulk of the devices that have ever been offered do NOT run BB10. That implies users were not given a true choice.

    Not saying it is Android's "fault" but you can't say the users have tried it and declared a winner. No, the people have been given Android and declared it was good enough.

    That's just the way tech has worked, before smartphones there was the PC, the browser, office suites, etc the list goes on. The thing that people get bundled with wins every time. Most people do not care enough to seek out alternatives.
    That last sentence is the most important part. A product must be really bad for a consumer to really look for alternatives. If a product is good, 95% of people will not actively look for a better replacement.

    Nokia might not have been popular in the US, but here in Europe, most carriers actively advertised Nokia phones running Windows Phone. Even with how powerful the Nokia brand was in Europe, combined with some actual carrier marketing push, they still failed.

    Both Nokia and BB missed the first wave of transition to modern smartphones. People started using smartphones and other people wanted what those first people did and that created a snowball effect. The BB and Nokia phones of the time were no match for iOS and Android.
    12-28-17 07:47 AM
  11. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    That last sentence is the most important part. A product must be really bad for a consumer to really look for alternatives. If a product is good, 95% of people will not actively look for a better replacement.

    Nokia might not have been popular in the US, but here in Europe, most carriers actively advertised Nokia phones running Windows Phone. Even with how powerful the Nokia brand was in Europe, combined with some actual carrier marketing push, they still failed.

    Both Nokia and BB missed the first wave of transition to modern smartphones. People started using smartphones and other people wanted what those first people did and that created a snowball effect. The BB and Nokia phones of the time were no match for iOS and Android.
    It's hard to understand how both Microsoft and BlackBerry missed that transition. Especially Microsoft, they understood what it meant to be king of a market very early. Yet they stuck with their plan of trying to pigeonhole Windows into a Mobile Device.... which sounds like Windows 10 finally managed to do. Only problem is it was seven or eight years too late. And it's not like they were doing all that great back in 2005, by 2007 they should have been in panic mode and came out with something competitive by 2009.

    Two companies that were out of touch with the direction the market was going, and were too slow to react once they figured it out. Both just assumed they couldn't fail.
    12-28-17 10:14 AM
  12. wingnut666's Avatar
    windows never stood a chance, they were pretty much the opposite of bb. waste o time. was there really ever a need for a cludgey ever-crashing virus laden mobile OS from the "anti-trust" company?

    blackberry dominated the market and assumed people would use their brains and actually take their communication privacy seriously. avoiding third-party apps like the plague was a good policy.

    humanity fail.


    Posted via CBX
    12-28-17 10:26 AM
  13. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    It's hard to understand how both Microsoft and BlackBerry missed that transition. Especially Microsoft, they understood what it meant to be king of a market very early. Yet they stuck with their plan of trying to pigeonhole Windows into a Mobile Device.... which sounds like Windows 10 finally managed to do. Only problem is it was seven or eight years too late. And it's not like they were doing all that great back in 2005, by 2007 they should have been in panic mode and came out with something competitive by 2009.

    Two companies that were out of touch with the direction the market was going, and were too slow to react once they figured it out. Both just assumed they couldn't fail.
    Microsoft and Google have been attacking the problem from opposite sides. Each wants to be the other computer OS to Apple, both mobile and non-mobile. They didn't miss transition as much as miss the mobile OS uptake of people that never owned computers before and first devices were smartphone or mobile OS tablet.

    BlackBerry was just disincentivized to ever leave BBOS and it's monthly revenue stream behind. The founders never cared for BB10 to succeed as they'd dumped most to all of their holdings before it's almost year delayed release. BlackBerry never had a serious viable business plan to replace BIS/BES revenue.
    12-28-17 10:32 AM
  14. wingnut666's Avatar
    and yet sh!tty Chinese phone makers are popping up left and right (albeit powered by Amerika, so there's no complaint...in fact slave labour is still the engine that powers capitalism). theres more to the story here. bb was shunned out of the US market because they were not under nsa control. with the way american companies get unfair trade advantages around the world, there was no way to compete.

    Posted via CBX
    12-28-17 10:38 AM
  15. DonHB's Avatar
    It is interesting that using the Android SDK to develop Flow apps was actually considered instead of Cascades during the planning for BB10 at BlackBerry. It is also interesting that the person that suggested the above approach left in 2012.

    It would make sense to make the Android SDK and runtime less platform dependent and once you have sufficient numbers of developers you could then approach those developers regarding their preference for a native SDK. It is a shame that when John Chen came on board he didn't make that course correction and adopted Alan Brenner's suggestion. This could have occurred within the first year that B10 entered the market.

    Returning to BlackBerry rewarding customer loyalty (and "assuming there are personnel to do it"), would anyone be interested in buying a BB10 autoloader from BlackBerry for either the Motion, Keyone or next gen product from TCL? How much would you be willing to pay? If this would be be offered toward the end of the product cycle to clear inventory would you still be interested and what would you pay in that case?
    12-28-17 10:50 AM
  16. wingnut666's Avatar
    unfortunately the tcl products are so poor (read: pricepoint) that i've moved on from considering them. however, a bb10 version would entice me back. if the phones came down to a more reasonable $400cdn, i would tack on $100 for bb10. but something would have to be done about the browser.

    Posted via CBX
    12-28-17 10:56 AM
  17. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    and yet sh!tty Chinese phone makers are popping up left and right (albeit powered by Amerika, so there's no complaint...in fact slave labour is still the engine that powers capitalism). theres more to the story here. bb was shunned out of the US market because they were not under nsa control. with the way american companies get unfair trade advantages around the world, there was no way to compete.

    Posted via CBX
    Sure, but in their country, the government helps them show profits sometimes real and sometimes nonexistent. Companies and more importantly, economies in Communist nations have very predictable revenues and profits, mysteriously sometimes.

    When many of these companies have come to West to compete, they're not always competitive from profits standpoint.
    12-28-17 10:59 AM
  18. Invictus0's Avatar
    windows never stood a chance, they were pretty much the opposite of bb. waste o time. was there really ever a need for a cludgey ever-crashing virus laden mobile OS from the "anti-trust" company?
    Excluding the fact that this hasn't really been true since XP, Windows Mobile (and later Windows Phone) were stable and quite secure (especially Windows Phone, I think fewer vulnerabilities were found on that platform than BB10).

    blackberry dominated the market and assumed people would use their brains and actually take their communication privacy seriously. avoiding third-party apps like the plague was a good policy.
    Not really, Symbian was the dominant OS before Android tookover, BBOS was a distant second. It was essentially the "Android vs iOS" of its day.

    https://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/1306513
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    12-28-17 11:02 AM
  19. wingnut666's Avatar
    again, i have never seen a symbian phone. thousands of bbos, hundreds of bb10, not one symbian or windoze for that matter. perspective, yes.

    Posted via CBX
    12-28-17 11:04 AM
  20. wingnut666's Avatar
    Sure, but in their country, the government helps them show profits sometimes real and sometimes nonexistent. Companies and more importantly, economies in Communist nations have very predictable revenues and profits, mysteriously sometimes.

    When many of these companies have come to West to compete, they're not always competitive from profits standpoint.
    does not the same thing go in a country with a made-up economy and a license to print cash without recourse? with no checks and balances, capitalism is a fail.

    more importantly i would argue that capitalism is dragging the whole world down with it, while communism is not. there are other issues at play in some communist countries like china and north korea, but they are not a direct result of a communist system. while also flawed, it is a better system for humanity. however, human corruption Trumps all.

    Posted via CBX
    Last edited by wingnut666; 12-28-17 at 11:22 AM.
    12-28-17 11:07 AM
  21. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    unfortunately the tcl products are so poor (read: pricepoint) that i've moved on from considering them. however, a bb10 version would entice me back. if the phones came down to a more reasonable $400cdn, i would tack on $100 for bb10. but something would have to be done about the browser.

    Posted via CBX
    There's not enough demand and never will be for BB10 or another OS to develop at this point. Just ask Microsoft. Old BlackBerry never had the economic resources to ever compete with the Big 3 and that's before pulling it's BIS revenue "oxygen" source required to live.

    As far as device prices go, there's no money for OEMs to make cheap devices when people are still willing to overpay for planned obsolescence and cheap devices aren't really cheap if they aren't upgradeable to same level as more expensive devices.
    12-28-17 11:37 AM
  22. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Returning to BlackBerry rewarding customer loyalty (and "assuming there are personnel to do it"), would anyone be interested in buying a BB10 autoloader from BlackBerry for either the Motion, Keyone or next gen product from TCL? How much would you be willing to pay? If this would be be offered toward the end of the product cycle to clear inventory would you still be interested and what would you pay in that case?
    I hope you realize that BlackBerry could not do this without securing resource commitments from every supplier of hardware components to create the necessary BB10 drivers. Without a commitment to purchase 10s of millions of units, this could cost 100's of millions of dollars!

    Assuming they could sell 1,000,000 units the cost for the OS alone would almost certainly be over $1,000 and would probably be more than 5x that.

    And there would be no Android compatibility, so no apps other than existing BB10 apps. And without updated development tools and a source of income for maintaining BlackBerry World, no ecosystem for new apps.

    It's fine to wish for these things, but I can think of no practical way to make it actually happen.
    12-28-17 11:51 AM
  23. wingnut666's Avatar
    we know. just saying i'd pay $100 premium for bb10.

    Posted via CBX
    12-28-17 11:56 AM
  24. glwerry's Avatar
    It would make sense to make the Android SDK and runtime less platform dependent and once you have sufficient numbers of developers you could then approach those developers regarding their preference for a native SDK. It is a shame that when John Chen came on board he didn't make that course correction and adopted Alan Brenner's suggestion. This could have occurred within the first year that B10 entered the market.

    Returning to BlackBerry rewarding customer loyalty (and "assuming there are personnel to do it"), would anyone be interested in buying a BB10 autoloader from BlackBerry for either the Motion, Keyone or next gen product from TCL? How much would you be willing to pay? If this would be be offered toward the end of the product cycle to clear inventory would you still be interested and what would you pay in that case?
    Dude, this has been debated ENDLESSLY on these forums. Chen was hired to turn BB around, to profitability, AFTER THE BOARD HAD MADE THE DECISION TO ABANDON BB10. So, how would he suggest a course correction?

    You also mention a BB10 autoloader for TCL products - WHO IS GOING TO PAY THE DEVELOPMENT COSTS FOR THIS?

    Not going to happen!
    12-28-17 12:02 PM
  25. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I'd happily pay $500-$1,000 a year for BB10 with just the bundled apps maintained (including Browser, Maps, Remember with MS Exchange synch, etc.) No Android compatibility required!

    But I don't think there are enough of me to make that a viable business!
    12-28-17 12:03 PM
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