12-27-17 06:25 PM
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  1. stlabrat's Avatar
    It's not painful for me at all. I use appstore on smartphones 2-3 times only after buying, loading a few needed apps... that's all! Why do people bother that hard about apps?! I need a good powerful device with smooth productive OS. Not apps!

    Still Sailfish OS reminds me BB10 almost at every aspect. And I hope, that we will see more and more such systems, since presented only iOS and Android on market is a disaster. The only possible choice for me at the moment is Windows 10.
    unfortunately, the app developer or BB10 or sailfish team can not live on someone that do not pay... either they have to do something else for a living, like QNX for auto or other IoT, or sailfish guys need to find another platform to earn the bread and butter and roof over their head... the pain we are talk about, is not lack of app.... is on the other side of the wall who try to do the great job and earn a living as well (who gave you the smooth productive handset and OS - I am not software... but equally painful... if not suffer more so).
    Oleg Afonin likes this.
    12-08-16 08:50 AM
  2. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Sailfish and BB10 both suffer from the lack of native app and support
    The situation on BB10 and Sailfish OS when it comes to apps isn't directly comparable. BB10 has tens of thousands of native apps, Sailfish OS has nearly none. Before BlackBerry started showing signs of withdrawing their committment to BB10 (almost 2 years ago), native BB10 apps were coming in hundreds a week. Whereas on Sailfish OS there are a few hundred apps in total after FOUR YEARS, i.e. less than what BB10 was getting WEEKLY when it was still loved by BlackBerry.... What we're seeing now on BB10 is the result of nearly two years of no care for the platform, things used to look much better back in 2014 or early 2015. Whereas on Sailfish OS things never looked any better, simply because Jolla never did anything to stimulate app development...

    As I wrote, the lack of any possibilities to monetize apps on Sailfish OS is the main cause of that only a handful of geeks develop for it. On BB10 one could at least normally sell his apps, while on the Jolla you can't do even just that.

    ====

    As for general causes of the "app gap" problem on such platforms, in my opinion it is their Android app compatibility. What everyone considers their savior, is actually their killer (in disguise and acting slowly). Maybe it is a good thing for users (in a short term) but it definitely isn't good for developers, and thus in a longer term also for users.

    If a platform like Sailfish OS or BB10 gets Android app compatibility, many companies never bother to make native versions of their apps because Android version can be (kind of) used instead. Such Android version usually works slower (and generally worse) than on Android itself, so users quickly get disappointed, blame the platform for it and start looking towards Android itself where that app works much better. Secondly, it is also a major problem for developers, because on such a young platform from its very first days they are forced to compete with millions of existing Android apps instantly flooding it. So developers quickly start wondering why would they compete with Android apps on such a young platform with tiny user base rather than on the giant Android itself, and many of them just leave for Android. And this is where the end begins.

    Windows Phone came out without Android compatibility and it got much more apps than BB10. For the very reasons listed above, i.e. because every company needed to make a native version of their app as an Android version couldn't be used instead, and because developers didn't have to instantly compete with millions of Android apps, which had a direct positive impact on their sales and profitability.

    Long story short: Android compatibility kills development of native software.
    12-08-16 12:00 PM
  3. Ment's Avatar
    In other, not surprising, news Turing which moved to Sailfish OS from Android appears now to be defunct. Not really Sailfish fault, Turing had a long history of mismanaged expectations but it probably precludes any major commercial partners for Sailfish. Maybe Russian government can rescue it.
    12-08-16 03:16 PM
  4. Avenzuno's Avatar
    Seems like Sailfish OS is a BB 10.4

    If without jokes, SailfishOS looks like what future of BlackBerry 10 should be.


    What do You think?
    At best, the OS can do Android 4.4.4. Think we're better off moving on to an Android device, whether it's BlackBerry-branded or not, within the next 6-12 months.

    Posted via CB10 from my 100-4 Classic with BB10 OS 10.3.3.2049 on at&t
    12-08-16 03:29 PM
  5. p1800nut's Avatar
    Just curious--why is Sailfish stuck on Android 4.4?
    12-08-16 10:29 PM
  6. Kot Prada's Avatar
    At best, the OS can do Android 4.4.4. Think we're better off moving on to an Android device, whether it's BlackBerry-branded or not, within the next 6-12 months.

    Posted via CB10 from my 100-4 Classic with BB10 OS 10.3.3.2049 on at&t
    Moving to Android? No, thanks... I will better switch to Nokia 1100 then
    12-09-16 06:44 AM
  7. Kot Prada's Avatar
    Long story short: Android compatibility kills development of native software.
    Exactly! If I would like Android apps, I would go with Android. But, if I want another OS, I wouldn't like any Android or Google footprint on my device.
    12-09-16 06:46 AM
  8. StephanieMaks's Avatar
    Long story short: Android compatibility kills development of native software.
    Well said, and I agree completely. Way back when, when I first heard that BB10 was going to include an android run-time, my first reaction was that it would be a crutch that BB10 would never be able to shake off.

    IMHO if there was to be any runtime at all, it should have been something to allow BBOS apps to be run on BB10. Either in an emulated environment or even with some limitations or whatever, just something to ease the transition for existing users and existing developers.
    12-09-16 12:59 PM
  9. pgg101's Avatar
    Waste of money. I wouldn't buy a BB10 or W10 phone, why spend a single penny on another OS?

    RedBerry Passport /10.3.3.2049 / Telus
    12-09-16 01:41 PM
  10. stlabrat's Avatar
    it is old data but very telling of the story who is making money on the driod - not google... https://www.androidpit.com/who-is-ma...y-from-android
    12-09-16 02:24 PM
  11. Trouveur's Avatar
    Waste of money. I wouldn't buy a BB10 or W10 phone, why spend a single penny on another OS?

    RedBerry Passport /10.3.3.2049 / Telus
    Because this OS is good ? Why refuse alternatives ?

    If it works for you, will it still be a waste of money ?


    Posted via CB10
    Kot Prada likes this.
    12-10-16 05:18 AM
  12. Kot Prada's Avatar
    Waste of money. I wouldn't buy a BB10 or W10 phone, why spend a single penny on another OS?

    RedBerry Passport /10.3.3.2049 / Telus
    The reason for me is that I can't see any reason to spend a penny for Android or iOS.
    Last edited by Kot Prada; 12-14-16 at 04:45 AM.
    12-10-16 06:26 AM
  13. pgg101's Avatar
    Because this OS is good ? Why refuse alternatives ?

    If it works for you, will it still be a waste of money ?


    Posted via CB10
    Because it seems like buying another OS that has no realistic chance of long term support is a waste of money to me.

    RedBerry Passport /10.3.3.2049 / Telus
    12-10-16 11:32 AM
  14. Kot Prada's Avatar
    Because it seems like buying another OS that has no realistic chance of long term support is a waste of money to me.

    RedBerry Passport /10.3.3.2049 / Telus
    That's' why You have BB10... now I see...
    12-11-16 06:28 AM
  15. pgg101's Avatar
    That's' why You have BB10... now I see...
    A device that is over 2 years old. If it breaks, I will replace it with Android. I wouldn't buy another Passport even though I like the form factor.

    RedBerry Passport /10.3.3.2049 / Telus
    12-11-16 11:39 AM
  16. ganipooja's Avatar
    Yes absolutely.....

    Posted via CB10
    12-11-16 09:04 PM
  17. stlabrat's Avatar
    A device that is over 2 years old. If it breaks, I will replace it with Android. I wouldn't buy another Passport even though I like the form factor.

    RedBerry Passport /10.3.3.2049 / Telus
    please let me know when it breaks (how old of device life). thx. (please do not drop or put into microwave).
    12-12-16 07:36 AM
  18. Drg84's Avatar
    Sailfish is a offshoot of Meego and Mer. Burningplatform (great name btw) is right, the os is a thing of beauty, well coded, very efficient aaaaaaand all but useless for the average user. It's not so much bb10.4 so much as the iphone if bb10 had come out first, or Android. It's kind of like being a mac user before the os had become bloated and buggy. Or being a webos user when that was still a thing. Great advanced os but with no developed apps, no interesting phones, no publicity and more to the point no incentive to develop new software their headed nowhere. It's ironic in a way because the N9 running Meego was a thing of beauty, but DOA

    Posted via CB10
    12-12-16 02:58 PM
  19. sonicpix's Avatar
    I posted earlier today that Sailfish will probably be my post-BB phone.

    Posted via CB10
    12-12-16 03:12 PM
  20. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Sailfish is a offshoot of Meego and Mer. Burningplatform (great name btw) is right, the os is a thing of beauty, well coded, very efficient aaaaaaand all but useless for the average user. It's not so much bb10.4 so much as the iphone if bb10 had come out first, or Android. It's kind of like being a mac user before the os had become bloated and buggy. Or being a webos user when that was still a thing. Great advanced os but with no developed apps, no interesting phones, no publicity and more to the point no incentive to develop new software their headed nowhere. It's ironic in a way because the N9 running Meego was a thing of beauty, but DOA
    What's the most strange about it is that it is so SOLELY because Jolla wants it so. As I wrote, it's probably the only smartphone OS on this planet which does not support paid apps in its app store. Users have been requesting it since ever, it's been the top 5th or 6th request on together.jolla.com site (out of tens of thousands) ever since I remember, but Jolla just keep completely ignoring it.

    See here: https://together.jolla.com/question/...-applications/
    It's probably the only request on that site that Jolla hasn't even bothered to respond to for several years. A request which - as I wrote - since ever has been in the top 10 of most voted for topics (out of 16255). Just stunning.

    You mentioned MeeGo (which was a direct ancestor of Sailfish OS). Yes, it was DOA (Elop announced that it would not be further developed even before the N9 started shipping, so it launched as a device with an already officially DISCONTINUED OS) yet still THOUSANDS of native apps were made for it within just one year (see e.g. here: My-MeeGo.com - MeeGo Software and News ). Why? Simply because it had a decent app store with full support for paid apps. Porting Qt apps from Symbian to MeeGo was extremely simple and quick, so lots of developers were doing it overnight. Why wouldn't they if it costed almost no work or time but allowed for some additional earnings...

    It quickly turned out that people didn't really mind that the device/OS was DOA, if it only had more and more apps coming. Whopping TWO MILLION N9's were sold in just 8 months (it's a reliable information, based on official info from Klomptek company who disclosed how many registrations of the built-in "Track&Protect" app they got from N9 users) even though the N9 wasn't at all promoted or subsidized, so it was quite expensive, unpopular and hard to find in some countries. It was the best example of how the existence of apps increases device sales and in turn how good device sales attract even more developers....

    Jolla could have EASILY benefited from exactly the same scenario. Back in late 2013 when the first Sailfish OS phone came out, there were still thousands of former Symbian and MeeGo developers with tens of thousands of existing apps ready to be ported, looking for a new platform for themselves to develop for. And just like previously Symbian-to-MeeGo, porting apps from Symbian and MeeGo to Sailfish OS was DEADLY SIMPLE and QUICK. A matter of just HOURS. So it was a natural choice for every Symbian and MeeGo developer. I mean, even if they planned eventually moving to Android, they would have also ported their apps to Sailfish OS, simply because it was so easy and quick. One evening, one app fully ported, released and bringing some earnings...

    But no. Jolla stubbornly refused to allow paid apps in their store. In 2013, a year later, two years later, and three years later as well. So all Symbian/MeeGo developers waited and waited, and eventually just gave up and moved elsewhere. Jolla CONSCIOUSLY scared them all away. Hence no apps whatsoever.

    Three years have passed and they still don't even talk about allowing paid apps. Generally, they've never shown ANY interest for stimulating development of native apps for their OS.

    This is something totally unprecedented and completely incomprehensible.

    ----
    Sorry for such a long rant but this is something that ANNOYS ME LIKE HELL every time I remind myself about it. I ordered my Jolla phone in the first batch. Paid 400+ Euros for such a low-end (even then) device only to be able to support this great OS since day one. I ported all my apps to Sailfish OS long before the phone came out - as early as in spring 2013 when the very first alpha of their SDK was released. One of my apps was demoed by Marc Dillon (former Jolla CEO) in his first Sailfish OS presentation in mid 2013, as it was one of just a few apps that existed at that time. I really did my best to support their OS. What I got in exchange? The phone has been catching dust in a drawer for 3 years as it's useless due to no developer possibilities. All the apps I ported have been sitting on my hard disk for almost 4 years as there's still no place to sell them and no hope that it'll ever change. All requests about if and when they are going to finally start supporting paid apps - unanswered.

    So if you're asking yourself why there are no apps for Sailfish OS then this is why. Because for 3 years they've been telling all developers to go **** themselves. I wouldn't care if the OS itself wasn't that good, but it simply hurts that such a great platform is being SUPRESSED so badly by its own maker. Like if they were only developing this OS for fun, with no intention of any commercial success ever, as it simply can't be successful without apps, and there won't be any apps as long as they cannot be monetized.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 12-12-16 at 04:39 PM.
    dmlis and stlabrat like this.
    12-12-16 04:15 PM
  21. Drg84's Avatar
    I feel for you on that one. I did some programming in qt when I was still a symbiote. I was attempting to convert tune in radio and facebook over to s60 and at the time Symbian Anna. When the n9 came out and I saw the support for qt, I figured it would be the next great os. Then Elop. Wow. Just wow. Windows phone 7 was incompatible with qt, with Java, even with windows mobile 6.5. Then when people started learning how to develop for it, windows 8 had its own set of apis. But microsoft was paying for app development at one point. But Jolla? they don't have the resources to support that, and they don't let people release paid apps on their own? I don't see a good end to this saga.

    Posted via CB10
    12-12-16 04:48 PM
  22. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    There must be some hidden plan behind their stubborn refusal to allow paid apps. It definitely isn't the cost or difficulty. Some 17 years ago when Internet was still young and so were online credit card payments, on a website I had at that time I launched a store with Symbian (Nokia Communicator) apps and credit card payments, and it took me (then a 26 years old individual) a week or so and no cost whatsoever. Basically, all it took was signing an agreement with a company processing card payments and then making a few PHP scripts to handle it automatically (forward the user and send required data to their server processing the payment, then getting transaction result: accepted or failed, and based on it allowing the download or not). If a single person could do it 17 years ago, Jolla could have done it too, if they only wanted. Why they - clearly - consciously avoid it is beyond me. Either they are so stupid that they really believe their ancient KitKat Android runtime is all their OS needs when it comes to apps, or they have some other hidden intentions.

    Relying solely on Android runtime is completely idiotic because for every sane person it is obvious that if such exotic OS only has Android apps then it is much better to buy an Android phone instead where all those apps will run faster, smoother and simply better. People go platforms like Jolla for their NATIVE experience and not for their (quite mediocre) Android emulation, which is maybe welcome as an ADDITION but definitely not as a BASE.

    As for Qt, there are still lots of active Qt developers who could keep Sailfish OS alive if only attracted to the platform and permitted by Jolla to take any advantage of it. BB10 is Qt-based, Android has a nice Qt port (allowed in Google Play) and many people develop in Qt for it, Ubuntu phone is Qt, lots of people develop in Qt for desktop... So there's still plenty of people who might start developing for Sailfish OS, but so far Jolla hasn't even just INVITED anyone to start doing it, let alone doing anything to make it worth anyone's time.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 12-12-16 at 06:19 PM.
    12-12-16 06:04 PM
  23. stlabrat's Avatar
    interesting discussion of other OS platform... my conclusion, the CEO matters - critical. Lesson learned from repeated history in different tech companies. (who ever has the ears of the CEO is the key influencer, the superiority of the technology matters less in both hardware and software... unless the CEO can see the value, you hit the wall one way or the other...developer included.. tell me if my perception is wrong. thx).
    12-13-16 08:05 AM
  24. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    CEO matters a lot. But in Jolla there are people who matter even more. Marc Dillon, one of the founders, who was one of those TRULY involved in MeeGo development in the past (Principal Engineer at Nokia/MeeGo so he really knew what an operating system is and what it needs to succeed) was Jolla CEO only between mid 2012 to October 2013 (and at that time it was going to be a normal platform with decent support for developers). He was replaced even before the device started shipping, and a year later he quit Jolla altogether. Clearly, others had different vision and goals.
    12-13-16 11:55 AM
  25. stlabrat's Avatar
    CEO matters a lot. But in Jolla there are people who matter even more. Marc Dillon, one of the founders, who was one of those TRULY involved in MeeGo development in the past (Principal Engineer at Nokia/MeeGo so he really knew what an operating system is and what it needs to succeed) was Jolla CEO only between mid 2012 to October 2013 (and at that time it was going to be a normal platform with decent support for developers). He was replaced even before the device started shipping, and a year later he quit Jolla altogether. Clearly, others had different vision and goals.
    my friend, Marc didn't matter... who matter the most was the one who has power to replace him... to get to your way of thinking, you need someone that can talk to THE GUY and convince him (not just talk to him... was sitting in a room with a consultant for 2 half day, specifically try to get my point view to across, so he can talk to the critical guy - one of Sr. Engineer told me the consultant opinion put 100X weight compare to whole engineering dept... even though his opinion formed based on our input - get pay big bucks for it too...story of long time ago and very humble experience).
    carloeh likes this.
    12-13-16 12:29 PM
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