09-16-13 04:39 PM
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  1. Alexey Prudkov's Avatar
    For EAS and IMAP Google treats Labels as Folders
    just_luc likes this.
    05-27-13 04:10 AM
  2. Omnitech's Avatar
    Google uses labels instead of folders - you can have several for each message. Inbox is also a label. Archiving a message means you just drop the Inbox label from a message. When you have server side search you don't need to sync all your messages - I'm syncing only a month of messages - the rest is server side searchable

    Yes, I know all about Google labels. But they still have to emulate folders to connect to the rest of the world, because the rest of the world (IMAP and EAS) uses folders in its communications protocols. And if they are syncing actual messages to the endpoint, they still have to copy those messages somewhere, and that's where the massive resource utilization comes into play when we start talking about attempting to sync folders with a million messages in them. (Ain't gonna happen)
    05-27-13 04:16 AM
  3. grover5's Avatar
    Honestly, I'm surprised you people syncing folders that large didn't have issues months ago.

    Can I ask you how you even physically manage, from a UI standpoint, folders with 100,000 conversations (presumably that means at least 200,000 messages and perhaps way higher) in a SINGLE FOLDER on a Z10/Q10?





    If you're on one of the recently-released 10.1 builds, several users have reported issues with CalDAV support.





    There is no "ticket to raise" with Microsoft since Google is not using Microsoft groupware products. EAS is a publicly documented protocol which Microsoft simply licenses the IP behind. They don't license or approve specific implementations of it.

    And you can rest assured that Google will add their own proprietary stuff into it somehow, that's what they always seem to do with "communication standards".

    Honestly, the way that they have increasingly started circling the wagons and hunkering-down more and more into their own walled-garden, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they sort-of accidentally on purpose made things break on non-Google/Android platforms from time-to-time. It's one of those dirty little secrets of how a lot of these big I.T. companies "compete" these days.
    In on 10.0.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 06:12 AM
  4. babydisco's Avatar
    Not sure why I didn't think of this myself... anyway I just switched it to 5 minute polling and sent myself a few test emails, it's certainly not instant, but the messages do come through within the 5 minutes.

    A five minute delay is not acceptable as a long term solution by any means, and another thing to keep in mind is switching from push to polling will negatively impact battery life, but for the time being I'll take it as a temporary fix, it's certainly better then the hour or more it's been taking for my messages to come in for the last 3 days.

    Somehow I doubt that a company like Google doesn't have 24/7 IT support... seems unlikely that a fix for a known issue would be out off to next business day.. but here's hoping.


    As for the "we don't support the z10" typical Google response. It supports all the protocols we use, buuuttt we don't support it because it's a blackberry.


    Posted via CB10

    Not sure why but mine is definitely instant with it turned off.

    Not true about battery life, battery life is improved as it is not consistently checking as push does. That's what the BlackBerry support guy told me. But who cars at this point anyway.

    This is insane!!!
    05-27-13 06:37 AM
  5. just_luc's Avatar

    I assume then that you're not using the new "forever" sync timeframe option for EAS, and instead are only seeing ~30 days of actual messages and using remote search when you want to see something older?
    Actually I am, and it gives me no problems whatsoever. Server side search from BB10 to Google apps is not supported at this time, a known issue according to Blackberry, so I sync all 14k emails to my device going back several years.. slows down the device for a few hours during the initial sync, but that quickly resolves itself and has given me no issues. I've had that many messages in my mailbox since before I got the z10.. no issues for several months... I've had the forever sync since my first 10.1 leak.. no issues for several weeks up until Friday night, so that's not a contributing factor. One of gmails claims to fame is that it was designed for unlimited email, it handles a large inbox very well, and they actually recommend never deleting an email. Also why their default action when you click delete is archive. In fact 14k messages is only about 1.5GB's of the 25GB they provide. That said, I of course did my due diligence when trouble shooting this issue, I confirmed that other users with less, and with more messages then me had the same issue, and I deleted my account and re-synced it with only 7 days to see if there was any difference in performance... There is not.



    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 07:25 AM
  6. just_luc's Avatar
    Not sure why but mine is definitely instant with it turned off.

    Not true about battery life, battery life is improved as it is not consistently checking as push does. That's what the BlackBerry support guy told me. But who cars at this point anyway.

    This is insane!!!
    That's not correct. With push.. the server is sending the messages to the device as soon as they come in, the device does not need to poll the server. With polling, the device sends a request to the server every 5 minutes to see if their are new messages. One thing I'm not 100% sure on, is whether a 5minute interval on EAS is still really push, just that the server is set to only push every 5 minutes, but the device doesn't actually poll, that is a possibility and then would not impact battery life, but in the case of pop or imap the device must poll, and that definitely does impact battery.. that's one of the reasons the minimum interval on pop or imap is 15 minutes and not 5.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 07:30 AM
  7. babydisco's Avatar
    [QUOTE=just_luc;8553025]That's not correct. With push.. the server is sending the messages to the device as soon as they come in, the device does not need to poll the server. With polling, the device sends a request to the server every 5 minutes to see if their are new messages. One thing I'm not 100% sure on, is whether a 5minute interval on EAS is still really push, just that the server is set to only push every 5 minutes, but the device doesn't actually poll, that is a possibility and then would not impact battery life, but in the case of pop or imap the device must poll, and that definitely does impact battery.. that's one of the reasons the minimum interval on pop or imap is 15 minutes and not 5.

    Posted




    Anyone else have any idea what this is?

    I tried push again to see if it works and nothing. Went back to push off and am getting a delay with emails every 5 minutes pretty much. Unreal. Before with push set to off it was working instantly for 24 hrs.

    Not sure what's going on but having push off for a day all emails were being sent instantly. Tried it today with push on nothing. Turned it back to off and it is doing the regular 5 minute sync interval. This is messed.
    Last edited by babydisco; 05-27-13 at 09:54 AM.
    05-27-13 08:55 AM
  8. babydisco's Avatar
    So strange but I think I'm on to something. Change your setting to PUSH OFF and sync interval to manual.

    My email is now being pushed to me.


    Let's see if yours is the same.
    05-27-13 09:02 AM
  9. grover5's Avatar
    So strange but I think I'm on to something. Change your setting to PUSH OFF and sync interval to manual.

    My email is now being pushed to me.


    Let's see if yours is the same.
    I'm glad to give your fix a shot. I really want my calendar back.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 09:59 AM
  10. babaroga's Avatar
    We are all on different networks in different countries on different OS builds and the sync suddenly stopped working for us on both Exchange and Google Apps - this makes diagnosing the cause of this problem more difficult.

    Posted via CB10

    I am on Q10 and same problem (sw 2342).
    05-27-13 10:30 AM
  11. global14u's Avatar
    Gmail suddenly decided to ask my password again today. First attempt to re add the info didn't work, but after changing the push interval from 30 mins to 5 mins, it seems to be working again (never knew how it got to 30 in the first place). Battery drain has been high all day even before the push change. And memory is lower at 300m instead of the usual 600+. No new apps loaded and no side loads either. Official 10.1.0.273 OS. Phone definitely is hotter. First bizarre experience in over 3 months with this phone.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 10:51 AM
  12. babydisco's Avatar
    I'm glad to give your fix a shot. I really want my calendar back.

    Posted via CB10
    Let me know if it worked for you as well?
    05-27-13 11:32 AM
  13. grover5's Avatar
    Let me know if it worked for you as well?
    Ok so I dropped my IMAP and added my account back as active exchange. At first I was getting my test emails within five minutes but now some are as late as ten minutes for arrival and one I sent with an attachment still hasn't arrived thirty minutes later. It didn't seem to matter if it was on push or five minute polling. The arrival rate was similar enough not to matter. Manual didn't work for me at all. This is all with my work google edu account mind you. My personal Gmail works fine.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 12:49 PM
  14. babydisco's Avatar
    Ok so I dropped my IMAP and added my account back as active exchange. At first I was getting my test emails within five minutes but now some are as late as ten minutes for arrival and one I sent with an attachment still hasn't arrived thirty minutes later. It didn't seem to matter if it was on push or five minute polling. The arrival rate was similar enough not to matter. Manual didn't work for me at all. This is all with my work google edu account mind you. My personal Gmail works fine.

    Posted via CB10

    So strange. This is all messed up.
    05-27-13 01:27 PM
  15. rdcanuck's Avatar
    Well you can add my name to the list having this problem today.
    UT is possible that it was happening on the weekend but u simply didn't notice but today my Z10 was too quiet compared to usual. Sure enough u just sent test messages to Gmail and they are not arriving yet but outlook.com is instant.

    I am on Rogers in Canada and updated to the latest leak on Saturday (2342). Prior to that on was on official 10.1 for over a week and have had no issues since mid February. I have always used goggle 2-factor authentication. If you look at my previous posts I February, this was a big issue that turned to be due to a Rogers LTE system mis configuration. The problem would go away on wifi so u do not think that this is the issue now.

    I will try to set the push interval to 5 minutes and see if that is better but that is not a permanent solution.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 02:31 PM
  16. Omnitech's Avatar
    I tried push again to see if it works and nothing. Went back to push off and am getting a delay with emails every 5 minutes pretty much. Unreal. Before with push set to off it was working instantly for 24 hrs.

    Not sure what's going on but having push off for a day all emails were being sent instantly. Tried it today with push on nothing. Turned it back to off and it is doing the regular 5 minute sync interval. This is messed.

    Other people have noted this counter-intuitive behaviour recently, I'm not sure it's limited to 10.1 builds but it seems it might be:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...issues-811237/
    05-27-13 03:55 PM
  17. Omnitech's Avatar
    Actually I am, and it gives me no problems whatsoever. Server side search from BB10 to Google apps is not supported at this time, a known issue according to Blackberry, so I sync all 14k emails to my device going back several years.. slows down the device for a few hours during the initial sync, but that quickly resolves itself and has given me no issues.

    Well that's an interesting datapoint, I think in general it's not recommended to try to sync folders that large, and I'd bet that a lot of MS Exchange servers would kick the device off it it tried to do something like that, because it uses a lot of resources. Well at least it's not "100,000 conversations".


    One of gmails claims to fame is that it was designed for unlimited email, it handles a large inbox very well, and they actually recommend never deleting an email. Also why their default action when you click delete is archive.

    Yes, because their business-model with their email products from the beginning has been to datamine users email store in order to target advertising and sell statistics to 3rd parties. The bigger the mail store, the better for them.



    In fact 14k messages is only about 1.5GB's of the 25GB they provide.

    Not if every one of those messages has a 5MB attachment.

    I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have thousands of emails in a mailbox, I just converted one user's email store from one desktop client to another and it had 320,000 messages in it. The issue when it comes to syncing is which folders are synced, how many messages are in a folder, and how large those messages are. If each one of those 14,000 messages had a 1MB file attachment, and the sync methodology in use was syncing the entire message to the endpoint, among other things the device simply doesn't have enough available storage space to do that, even if you didn't have any other data of any kind on it.


    That's not correct. With push.. the server is sending the messages to the device as soon as they come in, the device does not need to poll the server. With polling, the device sends a request to the server every 5 minutes to see if their are new messages. One thing I'm not 100% sure on, is whether a 5minute interval on EAS is still really push, just that the server is set to only push every 5 minutes, but the device doesn't actually poll, that is a possibility and then would not impact battery life, but in the case of pop or imap the device must poll, and that definitely does impact battery.. that's one of the reasons the minimum interval on pop or imap is 15 minutes and not 5.

    Both IMAP (using the IMAP IDLE extension) and EAS do "push" by opening a long-lived TCP socket which allows the server to send an update to the client without having to open a new connection. (Which of course is not generally possible anyway because most firewalls are going to block connections initiated from the outside. So keeping the connection open circumvents that problem.)

    Technically, both IMAP IDLE and EAS don't "poll" for new messages, but they open this connection for some length of time (which will stay up for as long as 59 minutes in the case of IMAP IDLE, up to 30 mins with EAS), and after a certain timeout period, tear it down and re-establish it again.

    The differences between IMAP and EAS begin with the fact that IMAP IDLE is only a mechanism for new message notification, it does not actually bidirectionally sync the mailbox during the proactive notification from the server. It still waits for its "sync period" to sync mailbox changes, deletions, moves, etc.

    Secondly, IMAP has to open a separate IDLE session for each folder it is monitoring. Needless to say, this becomes much more inefficient (and power-hungry) the more folders one is syncing.

    Also, IMAP is more "stupid" when it comes to maintaining this open TCP socket. If any network element in the path closes the session prior to the configured IDLE timeout (up to 59 minutes but often around 30 minutes), IMAP will no longer "push" notifications at that point, and will revert to the sync interval (initiated by the client) to update the client about new messages.

    EAS on the other hand has an elegant mechanism for figuring-out what sort of TCP timeout the link supports, and if it detects that its initial session is dropped prior to its scheduled timeout, it progressively backs-off its session length until it is within the timeout period supported by the current network path.

    I believe the "sync interval" with EAS is essentially a fallback if either push is not enabled on the server side (pretty rare), or push doesn't work at all under the current network conditions, ie as with some home network equipment which has extremely short TCP session timeout values, like 1-2 minutes.
    05-27-13 04:24 PM
  18. grover5's Avatar
    Ok as I know everyone is fascinated by my attempts to fix this issue...I decided to keep exchange active sync going as it is the only way to keep my calendar. My email is now being forwarded to another email account until a real fix is found. My new issue is the emails being forwarded are not being saved to the original email account inbox even though I have them set to do so. I'll be working on that next. I also would like my replies to appear to be coming from the original email address as well but will look into that after I fix the inbox.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 05:10 PM
  19. kartman_canada's Avatar
    OK... I missed this thread over the weekend but late last week... say Thursday or Friday... I started having issues with my google apps accounts and EAS via my Z10. Oddly, I have 2 accounts identically setup on my BB and only one is struggling (similar issues to other posters here). I've tried many things:

    1) Delete and readd
    2) downgrade 10.1 to earlier leak 1762 (before any issues were seen)
    3) stay with down grade but do factory reset and add ONLY my gmail account back

    I wasted a bunch of time on this and never found an answer. For the record, my delays are persisting today. I soooo miss my private BES setup that I had working seamlessly on my BB7.1 device. This Z10 thing has been such a mixed bag... gain so much and lose so much. That said, email is table stakes on BB... Very frustrating.

    Given all that I tried and the fact that one of my accounts continues to work just fine, I don't really understand what's going on. I'm not even sure the issue is with the Z10!
    05-27-13 05:19 PM
  20. babydisco's Avatar
    Well that's an interesting datapoint, I think in general it's not recommended to try to sync folders that large, and I'd bet that a lot of MS Exchange servers would kick the device off it it tried to do something like that, because it uses a lot of resources. Well at least it's not "100,000 conversations".





    Yes, because their business-model with their email products from the beginning has been to datamine users email store in order to target advertising and sell statistics to 3rd parties. The bigger the mail store, the better for them.






    Not if every one of those messages has a 5MB attachment.

    I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have thousands of emails in a mailbox, I just converted one user's email store from one desktop client to another and it had 320,000 messages in it. The issue when it comes to syncing is which folders are synced, how many messages are in a folder, and how large those messages are. If each one of those 14,000 messages had a 1MB file attachment, and the sync methodology in use was syncing the entire message to the endpoint, among other things the device simply doesn't have enough available storage space to do that, even if you didn't have any other data of any kind on it.





    Both IMAP (using the IMAP IDLE extension) and EAS do "push" by opening a long-lived TCP socket which allows the server to send an update to the client without having to open a new connection. (Which of course is not generally possible anyway because most firewalls are going to block connections initiated from the outside. So keeping the connection open circumvents that problem.)

    Technically, both IMAP IDLE and EAS don't "poll" for new messages, but they open this connection for some length of time (which will stay up for as long as 59 minutes in the case of IMAP IDLE, up to 30 mins with EAS), and after a certain timeout period, tear it down and re-establish it again.

    The differences between IMAP and EAS begin with the fact that IMAP IDLE is only a mechanism for new message notification, it does not actually bidirectionally sync the mailbox during the proactive notification from the server. It still waits for its "sync period" to sync mailbox changes, deletions, moves, etc.

    Secondly, IMAP has to open a separate IDLE session for each folder it is monitoring. Needless to say, this becomes much more inefficient (and power-hungry) the more folders one is syncing.

    Also, IMAP is more "stupid" when it comes to maintaining this open TCP socket. If any network element in the path closes the session prior to the configured IDLE timeout (up to 59 minutes but often around 30 minutes), IMAP will no longer "push" notifications at that point, and will revert to the sync interval (initiated by the client) to update the client about new messages.

    EAS on the other hand has an elegant mechanism for figuring-out what sort of TCP timeout the link supports, and if it detects that its initial session is dropped prior to its scheduled timeout, it progressively backs-off its session length until it is within the timeout period supported by the current network path.

    I believe the "sync interval" with EAS is essentially a fallback if either push is not enabled on the server side (pretty rare), or push doesn't work at all under the current network conditions, ie as with some home network equipment which has extremely short TCP session timeout values, like 1-2 minutes.


    Niceeeeeee!
    05-27-13 05:31 PM
  21. just_luc's Avatar
    Experiencing appalling battery life today with EAS set to 5 minute polling instead of push.. can't wait to get things back to normal.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 05:55 PM
  22. Omnitech's Avatar
    This is a joke, spoke to blackberry again. They are blaming google. This can't be as my activesync account is working flawlessly on ipad and getting all emails and getting them right away.

    Tested my email on playbook and push enabled with activesync and experiencing exact same problems. This has to be a blackberry issue.

    While that could be true, the reality is usually not quite so simple. In any communications scenario where multiple vendors need to interoperate with other vendors, you will always see various idiosyncracies and bugs on the various implementations of communications "standards", even if in theory those "standards" are supposed to all interoperate with each other.

    And when something breaks, it is not automatically the fault of vendor A because vendor B's products still work, the reason that that happens to be in that particular case might simply be a matter of chance (ie for whatever random reason, a bug in vendor X's product is not noticed by vendor B's product because perhaps vendor B's product is simpler, or is just "luckier" in that particular matchup than vendor A's product), or it could be that (as is a known issue with Google), vendor X's product is full of proprietary idiosyncracies in how they implement the nominal "standard", and in order to work with their idiosyncratic implementation, you either have to code around their idiosyncracies or bugs, or you get blamed for having a "broken product".

    That happens all the time in the web world, where companies like Opera who historically have tried to design as much as possible to the "standards", end up constantly being forced to change their behaviour to emulate all the idiosyncracies or bugs in other, more popular products, because if they don't, everyone claims that Opera is broken, because the website designers are frequently designing their websites to take into account the idiosyncracies and bugs in the popular products.

    Clearly what DID happen is that Google changed something on their side recently, because a lot of people with Blackberries that have had no technical changes (ie OS updates/changes) all the sudden are not working right. Whether that was a "good" change or a "bad" change in an absolute sense is hard to tell at this point.
    05-27-13 07:41 PM
  23. babydisco's Avatar
    Experiencing appalling battery life today with EAS set to 5 minute polling instead of push.. can't wait to get things back to normal.

    Posted via CB10

    Things won't get bad to normal, I spoke to blackberry and see no fix to this. Seems like they woul need a bunch of tickets open to take it seriously.
    05-27-13 08:08 PM
  24. AndroidArmageddon's Avatar
    ActiveSync is not working for me either. I tested it on the playbook as well no cigar. I know its not Google because I opened a ticket with them and its working perfectly with iOS. Everything went haywire last Friday. If push is disabled emails will come in according to the sync interval which is a battery drain. Please fix BlackBerry this is enough to drive one insane. Imagine a blackberry with disfunctional email. I would prefer a good old data outage compared to this crap. My good old faithful bb 7 os works like a champ.
    05-27-13 09:34 PM
  25. just_luc's Avatar
    While that could be true, the reality is usually not quite so simple. In any communications scenario where multiple vendors need to interoperate with other vendors, you will always see various idiosyncracies and bugs on the various implementations of communications "standards", even if in theory those "standards" are supposed to all interoperate with each other.

    And when something breaks, it is not automatically the fault of vendor A because vendor B's products still work, the reason that that happens to be in that particular case might simply be a matter of chance (ie for whatever random reason, a bug in vendor X's product is not noticed by vendor B's product because perhaps vendor B's product is simpler, or is just "luckier" in that particular matchup than vendor A's product), or it could be that (as is a known issue with Google), vendor X's product is full of proprietary idiosyncracies in how they implement the nominal "standard", and in order to work with their idiosyncratic implementation, you either have to code around their idiosyncracies or bugs, or you get blamed for having a "broken product".

    That happens all the time in the web world, where companies like Opera who historically have tried to design as much as possible to the "standards", end up constantly being forced to change their behaviour to emulate all the idiosyncracies or bugs in other, more popular products, because if they don't, everyone claims that Opera is broken, because the website designers are frequently designing their websites to take into account the idiosyncracies and bugs in the popular products.

    Clearly what DID happen is that Google changed something on their side recently, because a lot of people with Blackberries that have had no technical changes (ie OS updates/changes) all the sudden are not working right. Whether that was a "good" change or a "bad" change in an absolute sense is hard to tell at this point.
    Agreed. This basically echoes what I said a few pages back. The problem we are experiencing likely does originate on Googles side, whether that's a bug google is experiencing or just a change they've made to their protocols, but.. the fact that it's only negatively affecting BB10 users will mean Blackberry will have to adapt and workaround the change to get things working again.


    Posted via CB10
    05-27-13 10:42 PM
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