11-09-15 12:29 AM
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  1. BobRubus's Avatar
    I would have bought EVERY SINGLE new successor to my trusty Z10, IF THERE ONLY WERE ANY...
    I agree with that.


    All Hail Thorsten. Mother and Father of my Beloved Z10.
    09-27-15 10:56 AM
  2. cathulu15's Avatar
    The only way BB10 will gain market share now is a catastrophic hack in iOS or Android that cost folks cash. Otherwise it was slowly fading away, as much as I have grown to love the OS. Folks are just not buying it. Hope the Priv does well!

     Passport SE 
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    09-27-15 11:09 AM
  3. int19's Avatar
    OK.

    I just made you CEO of BlackBerry today. You have this (credit to another poster here who made the graph):


    Attachment 373276


    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    Act like a startup with everything to gain and nothing to lose? Act decisively and fearlessly?

    The original team behind Android wasn't that big - surely 6000 Canadians should be in with a chance...


    Posted via CB10
    raxamillion and Shadowyugi like this.
    09-27-15 11:15 AM
  4. conite's Avatar
    Actually I think I have the context.

    I think the here and now you're both referring to is at some point in 2014.
    I'm actually talking about right now, today.

    Some people are, for instance, suggesting that BlackBerry should of course go ahead with the Priv, but also (today) double down on BB10 with a coordinated plan of updating the hardware, combined with a big advertising campaign in order to draw millions upon millions to the platform and make it sustainable as a second OS. Still others are suggesting BlackBerry pay Qualcomm (today) the big bucks to build BB10 drivers for the Slider, with the same goal.

    It is my opinion that that won't work. There is insufficient return on investment.

    I'm not convinced that the Priv will work either, but I think it's the best shot they have right now, and they need to dedicate all their resources to this initiative. The non-Blackberry sites around the world seem encouraging and receptive too.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    Last edited by conite; 09-27-15 at 11:46 AM.
    kbz1960, Shadowyugi and JeepBB like this.
    09-27-15 11:16 AM
  5. conite's Avatar
    Act like a startup with everything to gain and nothing to lose? Act decisively and fearlessly?

    The original team behind Android wasn't that big - surely 6000 Canadians should be in with a chance...


    Posted via CB10
    And do what?

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    kbz1960 and JeepBB like this.
    09-27-15 11:17 AM
  6. Carjackd's Avatar
    It's not about a race to the bottom on pricing, it's about BlackBerry providing a unique value-add experience - patented physical keyboard and security hardening. They hope to carve out a niche.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    +1
    kbz1960 and Shadowyugi like this.
    09-27-15 11:30 AM
  7. Superdupont 2_0's Avatar
    I finally changed my mind and think JC did the right thing by offering a hybrid solution.

    If you are already on Android (consumer/business), fine, you can get a Slider and keep all your apps from the Google Playstore and your IT environment.

    If you prefer the extra security of BB 10, fine, BlackBerry stays committed to BB 10, though we maybe lose the Android runtime ( I wouldn't miss it).

    BlackBerry customers will have a lots more options in the future and if that makes handsets business more profitable, then there is a chance that BB10 will stay.
    For me the OS has matured enough, I only want the upcoming privacy/security enhancements, and the apps I purchased in Appworld are all working.

    I don't see Android as a replacement for BB10, it's rather a replacement of the Android runtime of BB10.







    Posted via CB10
    09-27-15 11:35 AM
  8. brookie229's Avatar
    This is very optimistic of you. Because Android is still so insecure and vulnerable in so many aspects, that to really and fully protect it it'll take BlackBerry forever.

    It is enough that a couple of serious security holes are discovered here and there that BlackBerry didn't protect, and the reputation of their "secure Android" will evaporate.
    I believe this "secure android" is basically Blackberry's BS mantra now. Wait til the XDA boys/girls get hold of the Priv. They are just licking their chops. Securing android is pretty much mostly all talk and little action on Blackberry's part. Sure they have done a couple things to make it look better but it won't take long for an exploit. Anyway, it will be interesting to see if this is the case and I have nothing but kudos for BB to try.
    09-27-15 11:36 AM
  9. conite's Avatar
    I believe this "secure android" is basically Blackberry's BS mantra now. Wait til the XDA boys/girls get hold of the Priv. They are just licking their chops. Securing android is pretty much mostly all talk and little action on Blackberry's part. Sure they have done a couple things to make it look better but it won't take long for an exploit. Anyway, it will be interesting to see if this is the case and I have nothing but kudos for BB to try.
    I'm more interested in the privacy / BlackBerry Safeguard component than the security / Grsecurity component. I think the privacy issue is more of a sell than the security thing anyway.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    09-27-15 11:45 AM
  10. ZF_23's Avatar
    I'm actually talking about right now, today.

    Some people are, for instance, suggesting that BlackBerry should of course go ahead with the Priv, but also (today) double down on BB10 with a coordinated plan of updating the hardware, combined with a big advertising campaign in order to draw millions upon millions to the platform and make it sustainable as a second OS. Still others are suggesting BlackBerry pay Qualcomm (today) the big bucks to build BB10 drivers for the Slider, with the same goal.

    It is my opinion that that won't work. There is insufficient return on investment.

    I'm not convinced that the Priv will work either, but I think it's the best shot they have right now, and they need to dedicate all their resources to this initiative. The non-Blackberry sites around the world seem encouraging and receptive too.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    It will sweep the existing devices, and will not be possible to do so.
    09-27-15 11:50 AM
  11. southlander's Avatar
    Come on, Nokia had sliding keyboards before Google was founded. And everyone will have them if the Priv's one only turns out to be popular. Modified this way or another to avoid getting sued, and not necessarily worse.

    Besides.... try and sue the Chinese. They even cloned the whole Russian Su-27 aircraft.
    Yes, and Xiaomi makes an iPhone clone that runs an (Android) iOS clone. But good luck to them trying to get it distributed in the US. I am not talking about China/Russia where intellectual property laws are or might be ignored.

    Yeah I am sure there will be some terrible clones if it sells. Like that horrible Droid Pro KB. Or that horrible new Samsung attachment thing.
    09-27-15 12:23 PM
  12. southlander's Avatar
    The original team behind Android wasn't that big
    But the company that made it relevant is, has unlimited profits, and attracts top talent.
    kbz1960 and Shadowyugi like this.
    09-27-15 12:31 PM
  13. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I believe this "secure android" is basically Blackberry's BS mantra now. Wait til the XDA boys/girls get hold of the Priv. They are just licking their chops. Securing android is pretty much mostly all talk and little action on Blackberry's part. Sure they have done a couple things to make it look better but it won't take long for an exploit. Anyway, it will be interesting to see if this is the case and I have nothing but kudos for BB to try.
    BlackBerry is working directly with Google to SECURE the device, but for the most part the benefit to users of Android over BlackBerry 10 requires privacy compromises.

    What is Google itself doing to ensure that an Android experience is secure and private? There are too many Google apologists to suffer the backlash of explaining why Google is untrustworthy, but I have my reasons which are partially based on principles, not paranoia. I used to feel that way about Microsoft, but my position there has softened in recent years as they have put more effort in innovating than they have into road blocking competitors and lying to the FTC. When Google changes their tactics, I may consider Android for my daily driver, but it will be years before Google either voluntarily or by means of government regulation begins to change.

    Posted via CB10
    09-27-15 12:54 PM
  14. KAM1138's Avatar
    OK.

    I just made you CEO of BlackBerry today. You have this (credit to another poster here who made the graph):


    Attachment 373276

    You need to generate huge hardware sales within the next two quarters. What is your mysterious third option and your new paradigm? Keep in mind you have no native app development to speak of, your Android Runtime is becoming hopelessly out of date and the OHA still won't grant you Google Play Services because you are not running pure Android. You have zero traction with consumers, and carriers - they do not see value in BB10. Most of your device and OS team have been let go. Your investors are demanding immediate results.

    You don't need to tell me what got BlackBerry here. You are now here. Ok..., go.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    First, false scenario, because you aren't asking me to come up with a plan to save bb10 you are asking me to first undo the damage done by choosing this android path in the first place.

    Second, I never claimed I had the answers I said that people such as yourself were forwarding a false choice, and you continue to do so.

    I'm saying this wasn't the only possible route. It isn't and no amount of insistence on you part will eliminate the fact possibly is a thing.

    But as a fun exercise I'll take on the added burden of Chen's bad choices. Just arrange for me to get a CEO's salary and all the resources and power and I'll get right on that.

    What you've really done in your challenge is highlight exactly how incompetent Chen's leadership has been. Yet this same inept leader who is doing nothing about these problems is going to somehow make it all better with some half -baked hail Mary play to cater to someone else's strengths.

    Also, be sure to hold Chen responsible when he fails to "generate massive hardware sales in two quarters."

    Also, convenient that you don't want to get into what led us here. Because part of it is the failure that I warned against 3+ years ago.

    You are asking for a solution that is the result of a path I would not have taken.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by KAM1138; 09-27-15 at 01:15 PM.
    09-27-15 12:58 PM
  15. brookie229's Avatar
    BlackBerry is working directly with Google to SECURE the device, but for the most part the benefit to users of Android over BlackBerry 10 requires privacy compromises.

    What is Google itself doing to ensure that an Android experience is secure and private? There are too many Google apologists to suffer the backlash of explaining why Google is untrustworthy, but I have my reasons which are partially based on principles, not paranoia. I used to feel that way about Microsoft, but my position there has softened in recent years as they have put more effort in innovating than they have into road blocking competitors and lying to the FTC. When Google changes their tactics, I may consider Android for my daily driver, but it will be years before Google either voluntarily or by means of government regulation begins to change.

    Posted via CB10
    Pretty major dichotomy here if you ask me. Blackberry talks security and privacy---Google is an advertising monster. In virtually NO WAY can Google really care about anyone's privacy when push comes to shove. The very essence of advertising and data collection spits in the face of privacy.
    Reed Richards and David Tyler like this.
    09-27-15 01:04 PM
  16. RyanGermann's Avatar
    First, false scenario, because you aren't asking me to come up with a plan to save bb10 you are asking me to first undo the damage done by choosing this android path in the first place.

    Second, I never claimed I had the answers I said that people such as yourself were forwarding a false choice, and you continue to do so.

    I'm saying this wasn't the only possible route. It isn't and no amount of insistence on you part will eliminate the fact possibly is a thing.

    But as a fun exercise I'll take on the added burden of Chen's bad choices. Just arrange for me to get a CEO's salary and all the resources and power and I'll get right on that.
    People talk about the OHA like it's some kind of inviolable law of nature. It is in place to protect Google (of course, Google is a for profit business, and have a right to engineer business agreements and software to enrich themselves) and as more and more apps depend on Google Play Services, fewer and fewer apps of note will run on "open source Android" platforms that aren't "OHA compliant". Free Market. Until government agencies worldwide decide it's not, really.

    So, one day (perhaps it's already here, as evidenced by BlackBerry 10's and Amazon Fire's fortunes) the notion of Android being "open" will fade to insignificance as the market continues towards the attitude "if it's not supported by Google Play, it's not Android".

    Android didn't start out like this... it feels like a great bait-and-switch has been perpetrated on the smartphone market, and BB10 users are just one more casualty rotting on the roadside.

    I make the decision to not use Android. My BB10 device will continue to work. BlackBerry's lack of respect for loyal customers is what stings here. When Chen came on board I expected a more calculated approach to managing BlackBerry. It's my own fault for expecting more.

    We have all heard stories of companies that bear the cost of 'doing right' by their customers, even at great expense. We all may have personal experiences like this.

    Here's one of mine. I was in Boston at a restaurant called Legal Sea Food. I ordered a crab dish that sounded great on the menu but was basically swimming in butter: I ate some, but left most of it on the plate. The server asked if there was something wrong and I said, "nothing, I just didn't care for it". the manager came and offered to have something else prepared for me... I declined because it was late, and he struck the item from the bill. He didn't have to do that.

    The point is, we all like to hear stories about corporations being 'nice' at their own expense when they don't "have" to! We think POSITIVE things about the company and the world when stories like this come to light.

    This situation is the opposite, so is it any surprise that BlackBerry customers feel upset with BlackBerry? Betrayed? It's hard to see BlackBerry as anything but callous when they won't even try to come up with a business case for BB10 on the slider. That business case can include "we will have to charge for BB10 software upgrades going forward" and other ideas, but the casual disregard is what feels like a betrayal.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 09-27-15 at 05:12 PM.
    KAM1138 likes this.
    09-27-15 01:10 PM
  17. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    People talk about the OHA like it's some kind of inviolable law of nature. It is in place to protect Google (of course, Google is a for profit business, and have a right to engineer business agreements and software to enrich themselves) and as more and more apps depend on Google Play Services, fewer and fewer apps of note will run on "open source Android" platforms that aren't "OHA compliant". Free Market. Until government agencies worldwide decide it's not, really.

    So, one day (perhaps it's already here, as evidenced by BlackBerry 10's and Amazon Fire's fortunes) the notion of Android being "open" will fade to insignificance as the market continues towards the attitude "if it's not supported by Google Play, it's not Android".

    Android didn't start out like this... it feels like a great bait-and-switch has been perpetrated on the smartphone market, and BB10 users are just one more casualty rotting on the roadside.

    I make the decision to not use Android. My BB10 device will continue to work. BlackBerry's lack of respect for loyal customers is what stings here. When Chen came on board I expected a more calculated approach to managing BlackBerry. It's my own fault for expecting more.

    We have all heard stories of companies that bear the cost of 'doing right' by their customers, even at great expense. We all may have personal experiences like this.

    Here's one of mine. I was in Boston at a restaurant called Legal Sea Food. I ordered a crab dish that sounded great on the menu but was basically swimming in butter: I ate some, but left most of it on the plate. The server asked if there was something wrong and I said, "nothing, I just didn't care for it". the manager came and offered to have something else prepared for me... I declined because it was late, and he struck the item from the bill. He didn't have to do that.

    The point is, we all like to hear stories about corporations being 'nice' at their own expense when they don't "have" to. This situation is the opposite: it's hard to see BlackBerry as anything but callous when they won't even try to come up with a business case for BB10 on the slider. That business case can include "we will have to charge for BB10 software upgrades going forward" and other ideas, but the casual disregard is what feels like a betrayal.
    To be fair, companies will be nice when they can afford to. See what happens if Legal Sea Food starts to lose money.

    There is something to be said for unwavering customer care, but the customers BBRY currently has aren't really keeping it afloat. One can say -- rightly so -- that that's BBRY's fault in the first place, but it is what it is.

    In the end, shareholders trump customers. A corporation caters to the one group only so long as it helps increase the other.
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    09-27-15 03:02 PM
  18. conite's Avatar

    Also, be sure to hold Chen responsible when he fails to "generate massive hardware sales in two quarters."

    Also, convenient that you don't want to get into what led us here. Because part of it is the failure that I warned against 3+ years ago.

    You are asking for a solution that is the result of a path I would not have taken.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    I'm trying to evaluate strategies currently available - I'm not interested in those that require time travel. If this is not the discussion we are having, then I apologise in advance by wanting to end it here, as this is not what I thought we were talking about.

    I have always stated that I think BB10 was lost before it started regardless of the decisions that BlackBerry made after launch (and certainly in the Chen era). Chen is making the only rational decision available in my opinion. It is not a matter of holding him responsible - he's already done what I thought he must.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    Last edited by conite; 09-27-15 at 04:49 PM.
    JeepBB likes this.
    09-27-15 03:43 PM
  19. KarateHottie93's Avatar
    An RF engineer might disagree with you there. Also, several certifying bodies.

    Posted via CB10
    No. Do your research. If the OS drivers for the hardware are there, they are there. It's just that simple but people with no idea how tech works are easily convinced by others with no idea how tech works. Blind leading the blind...
    09-27-15 04:07 PM
  20. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    I believe this "secure android" is basically Blackberry's BS mantra now. Wait til the XDA boys/girls get hold of the Priv. They are just licking their chops. Securing android is pretty much mostly all talk and little action on Blackberry's part. Sure they have done a couple things to make it look better but it won't take long for an exploit. Anyway, it will be interesting to see if this is the case and I have nothing but kudos for BB to try.
    That's right. Moreover, let's try to imagine how Blackberry's "secure Android" OS update policy will look like. This Priv will probably come out with Android 5.1.1 already PAST Android 6 release. So it will be kind of outdated at start. Now let's imagine how long it will take BlackBerry to get each such new Android version, "secure it" (i.e. add all the BB customizations, their security system, their custom kernel, check if there are no serious security holes in that new release which - if not discovered and patched - would ruin BB's "secure Android" reputation) and so on. I'm afraid this is going to be a device with permanently and massively delayed upgrades to each new Android version, and if the device is locked (locked bootloader, etc.) "for security reasons" then also without any possibility to upgrade it by the user (using Cyanogenmod or such). That's why I can sense that it won't get too popular among average users. Seeing how everyone else uses Android 6 (either officially updated or via Cyanogenmod etc.) while yourself being stuck at Android 5.1.1 won't make anyone happy.

    Just see on this very forum how people can't wait for BB10 updates and so many of them grab and flash the leaked versions. Compare it with always seriously delayed Android updates on the Priv, and no possibility to install any leaks, while every Nexus or Samsung Galaxy user can enjoy it from the day it comes out.

    P.S. Look, this allegedly "secure" Android 5.1.1 on the Priv won't even have (at least until they upgrade it to Android 6, if ever) Android 6's improved (cloned from BB10) permission control (individual permissions switchable at any time, rather than either all or none) - something that for every BB10 user has always been the most basic security feature of BB10.

    This single thing alone would be such a security downgrade for me, that I just can't imagine sacrificing it by switching from BB10 to Priv.
    09-27-15 04:39 PM
  21. RyanGermann's Avatar
    To be fair, companies will be nice when they can afford to. See what happens if Legal Sea Food starts to lose money.

    There is something to be said for unwavering customer care, but the customers BBRY currently has aren't really keeping it afloat. One can say -- rightly so -- that that's BBRY's fault in the first place, but it is what it is.

    In the end, shareholders trump customers. A corporation caters to the one group only so long as it helps increase the other.
    With all due respect Tre, no. This would not put an undue strain on BlackBerry's finances unless ANYTHING is "undue". This is just a callous business decision. Callous because the box the BB Board and Chen think in is very tiny and they won't entertain alternative funding approaches to keep their core most loyal customers happy. Just "box the line" as they used to say on Battlestar Galactica. Even when they were the "villians" plenty of viewers thought "Jeez that's harsh!".
    09-27-15 05:02 PM
  22. raxamillion's Avatar
    I can only hope this thread doesn't become true. BB10 crushes every other OS. It's only held back by blackberry and the refusal to market it.

    Passport SE SQW100-4/10.3.2.2639
    09-27-15 05:11 PM
  23. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    With all due respect Tre, no. This would not put an undue strain on BlackBerry's finances unless ANYTHING is "undue". This is just a callous business decision. Callous because the box the BB Board and Chen think in is very tiny and they won't entertain alternative funding approaches to keep their core most loyal customers happy. Just "box the line" as they used to say on Battlestar Galactica. Even when they were the "villians" plenty of viewers thought "Jeez that's harsh!".
    I hear you. I do.

    But the bottom line seems to be that the powers that be have determined that BB10 is not a winning hand.

    Now, I'm not convinced Android is either. It solves one major problem, yes, but there are other factors at play.

    It's hard not to go with the thinking that at the very least, Android would do better than BB10.
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    09-27-15 05:25 PM
  24. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Still others are suggesting BlackBerry pay Qualcomm (today) the big bucks to build BB10 drivers for the Slider, with the same goal.
    What are these "big bucks" of which you speak? Got a number in mind? (to be fair, if you decline to answer that question, you will be in good company: plenty of people defend BlackBerry by saying it would cost too much to develop drivers for BB10, but oddly, no one can even hazard a guess at how much that is... if it's high ENOUGH, perhaps some of those of us criticizing BlackBerry would say "Really?! THAT MUCH?! Jebus, those Qualcomm jerks are JERKS! I'll be looking for devices that don't have Qualcomm tech in it from now on!"

    But I can't imagine a scenario where the actual amount the all-in cost, is so high that BlackBerry can't find a way to do it. They would have to WANT to find a way, but they don't want to.
    09-27-15 05:27 PM
  25. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    I can only hope this thread doesn't become true. BB10 crushes every other OS. It's only held back by blackberry and the refusal to market it.
    Nah.

    What do you think the average user is looking for? What would you market?
    09-27-15 05:28 PM
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