11-09-15 12:29 AM
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  1. KarateHottie93's Avatar
    diegonei,



    OK, you'll remain happy (for now, but certainly not for ever). And so will I with my Z10. But BlackBerry won't sell two devices which otherwise we would buy. So while maybe WE won't lose much (for now), BBRY won't earn. Few months from now, Chen again will announce another "small revenue drop" which in turn will cause further cost reductions and further BB10 development reductions. On which we'll all lose.


    Even if the drivers really are such a problem, this in no way explains not releasing a Z10/Z30 or Q10 successor with the Passport's hardware, for which Mr. Chen DOES HAVE all the drivers, or else how would the Passport be functioning In other words, as I already wrote, creating a Z10 successor with the Passport's specs is merely designing a housing for it.

    As for difficulties with "getting them assembled and packed, managing the supply chain..." etc., if such BASICS of manufacturing and selling smartphones are something that BlackBerry cannot cope with then maybe they should switch to planting potatoes... OK, now seriously, these are things you just CAN'T avoid if you manufacture electronics. If you don't want to do it, you need to change your business. It would be the most idiotic excuse I could imagine if I heard that "they can't release a new phone because it would take assembling and packaging it.....".

    Mind you, even the tiny Jolla managed to design, get assembled, packed, shipped and sold first their phone and now their tablet. So it's doable.

    And if they're not sure of how many existing users would upgrade, why not run a survey or something. There are multiple (reliable and scientifically proven) ways to get such sort of info, but they haven't even tried.


    Sure they are not forced to do it. But it is them who won't earn on it at the end of the day. Keep Z10, Z30 and Q10 users one more year without any successor and most of them will eventually go away. Those people will get themselves some new phone - iOS, WP, Android, whatever. They'll forget about BB10. Question is what BBRY will be making money on if majority of existing users leave. Their Android experiment may work or it may not, no one knows. If not, what will remain? Bottom line: no company should disregard existing users that quickly. Nokia also believed that their WP shift would be successful. Well, it ended up as the biggest failure in smartphone history.


    The full touch form factor, which is what I'm interested in the most, certainly is the world's most popular form factor, considering that some 95% of Android phones, all iPhones and WP phones use it. So it definitely is something unprecedented not to have provided a single successor to this form factor in 3 years (as I wrote, the Leap can hardly be considered an upgrade if its specs are identical as the Z10's and worse than the Z30's).


    Please feel free to just skip whatever annoys you. You're in no way obliged to read or reply to it, just like I am in no way obliged to only write what you'd like to see.

    Anyway, as I wrote, there are multiple ways to survey people's expectations and whether they'd update or not. Statistics is a science, there are tools and methods to get fully reliable results. But it takes at least trying.

    Or if they are too scared to risk, then let people preorder it, in which case the worst thing they'd be risking would be that they'd need to return the money if the number of preorders wasn't sufficient. Or do it in a hundred of other possible ways. Just do something instead of whining about poor sales and low revenue.


    I don't think there is any need to get unkind. English is not my native tongue, so I can't express myself as clearly and concisely as I'd do in my language, but I'm really doing my best.

    I am only trying to say that if a PHONE company tries to save money by NOT MAKING PHONES then it won't get them far. Please feel free to disagree with it.
    Yeah I didn't get him lol. I build computers for a living. Hardware is hardware and if a BB10 driver for it is already out there, it's that simple. A case change requires absolutely nothing except making the case and stuffing the parts in it.

    Some people with no idea like to use words like "coding" to sound smart though.
    09-27-15 02:06 AM
  2. int19's Avatar
    Yeah I didn't get him lol. I build computers for a living. Hardware is hardware and if a BB10 driver for it is already out there, it's that simple. A case change requires absolutely nothing except making the case and stuffing the parts in it.

    Some people with no idea like to use words like "coding" to sound smart though.
    An RF engineer might disagree with you there. Also, several certifying bodies.

    Posted via CB10
    CmdrStraker and Shadowyugi like this.
    09-27-15 02:32 AM
  3. Allanon89's Avatar
    No doubt a packaging designer and a member of the marketing team in charge of finding a name for that new hypothetical phone might disagree as well.
    But that's not the point, is it?

    Everything costs in terms of time, effort and money. Seriously, if antennae and certifications for a new phone completely sharing the rest of its internals with the Passport can be so much of an issue for BB, they are right in turning into a software company.

    There are many people here who like making it all look sooo hard, sooo impossible to achieve simple things, when those things involve BB10. They're trying to justify another platform switch "because it's the only right thing to do". But they only manage to prove that BB did not try hard enough with BB10.
    Most issues proposed as reasons for the necessity of the switch, or for the impossibility of making a new full touch, are just excuses for lack of will (i.e. management). If the problem were cost, it would still prove that BB has not believed in this platform for some time and has put no effort in trying to steer the ship.
    09-27-15 04:18 AM
  4. int19's Avatar
    No doubt a packaging designer and a member of the marketing team in charge of finding a name for that new hypothetical phone might disagree as well.
    But that's not the point, is it?

    Everything costs in terms of time, effort and money. Seriously, if antennae and certifications for a new phone completely sharing the rest of its internals with the Passport can be so much of an issue for BB, they are right in turning into a software company.
    I agree - though it is _slightly_ more complex than simply repackaging an existing product into a new case - afterall, it takes Apple twelve months to do exactly that with each release of a new iPhone!


    Posted via CB10
    09-27-15 05:14 AM
  5. conite's Avatar
    Hello,

    You can't say there isn't a third possible option. Generally, that third option is to come up with a new innovation that changes the paradigm. Silly as that sounds it is true, and it is exactly what Apple did that put Blackberry the former too dog on the bottom.

    KAM
    OK.

    I just made you CEO of BlackBerry today. You have this (credit to another poster here who made the graph):


    R.I.P. BB10..-crackberry-image-2-.jpg

    You need to generate huge hardware sales within the next two quarters. What is your mysterious third option and your new paradigm? Keep in mind you have no native app development to speak of, your Android Runtime is becoming hopelessly out of date and the OHA still won't grant you Google Play Services because you are not running pure Android. You have zero traction with consumers, and carriers - they do not see value in BB10. Most of your device and OS team have been let go. Your investors are demanding immediate results.

    You don't need to tell me what got BlackBerry here. You are now here. Ok..., go.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    Last edited by conite; 09-27-15 at 06:15 AM.
    09-27-15 05:45 AM
  6. cbdwolff7's Avatar
    This thread doesn't make any sense. There is no RIP for BB10 yet. We should wait for 10.3.3 than anything else first.

    Z30 / STA100-2 /10.3.2.2639
    The only thing that points out a R.I.P is when Chen said in the video, "We don't have the apps and can't begin to make all of them" this is a first look at BB10 going by the way side. He evn knows that Apps are also what sells a platform. If he didn't care about sales he wouldn't be going to bed with google. I hope this new direction isn't the demise of my favorite phone OS of all time. I think the future will be our only answer on what direction it all goes. We loved our Playbook, but see what happened to it,... Just my thoughts! I will always have my Z30, which has served me well and will until it dies, Then it will be R.I.P
    09-27-15 07:45 AM
  7. The_Passporter's Avatar
    The only thing that points out a R.I.P is when Chen said in the video, "We don't have the apps and can't begin to make all of them" this is a first look at BB10 going by the way side. He evn knows that Apps are also what sells a platform. If he didn't care about sales he wouldn't be going to bed with google. I hope this new direction isn't the demise of my favorite phone OS of all time. I think the future will be our only answer on what direction it all goes. We loved our Playbook, but see what happened to it,... Just my thoughts! I will always have my Z30, which has served me well and will until it dies, Then it will be R.I.P
    He did say though that the reason he cant fix the app dilemma is the lack of resources and funds. Post Priv/android phone sales if they bring in the needed funds to move forward then I can see Chen slowly making changes to resolve the starvation and anorexia in the BlackBerry app store. This like you said, is something that can only be revealed with time. I have faith and an awesome Passport that does everything I want so I am not overly concerned.

    Posted via CB10
    09-27-15 08:06 AM
  8. conite's Avatar
    He did say though that the reason he cant fix the app dilemma is the lack of resources and funds. Post Priv/android phone sales if they bring in the needed funds to move forward then I can see Chen slowly making changes to resolve the starvation and anorexia in the BlackBerry app store. This like you said, is something that can only be revealed with time. I have faith and an awesome Passport that does everything I want so I am not overly concerned.

    Posted via CB10
    But if the Priv sells well and obtains the security certifications, there is even less need to support a second OS.

    Don't forget too that they have essentially eliminated their entire OS and device team, and they would probably have to strip the Android Runtime out of future BB10 updates.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    Last edited by conite; 09-27-15 at 08:32 AM.
    southlander and Shadowyugi like this.
    09-27-15 08:19 AM
  9. Allanon89's Avatar
    I just made you CEO of BlackBerry today.
    Problem is this situation is not relevant. Your hypothetical individual is a brand new CEO from Mars.
    An option closer to reality would be considering that he/she has been CEO of BlackBerry for some time now and his/her strategy is at least partially responsible for the situation they are in. He/she is not suddenly discovering this graph before his/her eyes- he/she has actually helped drawing it. So not applicable.

    You need to generate huge hardware sales within the next two quarters
    Again landed in Waterloo from the red planet, he/she finds him/herself needing to generate huge hardware sales in a very short time. Nice science fiction.

    So
    - either he/she is clueless, that's to say he/she has been carrying out a trial and error tactic - "let's see if enough people like the PP, the Classic and the Leap"
    - or he/she has been pursuing a coherent strategy in which he/she him/herself has created the premises for the move to Android and write-off of BB10 to be necessary and unavoidable. Let's face it - if you lay off too many BB10 developers, you can't adapt BB10 to a new SoC and display, debug and support it, the more so if you have already decided to go Android and all your limited resources are concentrated on the oh-so-light task of porting lots of software to a new platform. That must be far cheaper than adapting BB to new hardware, especially if you have been working towards the platform switch for a year or so.

    There's no point in saying "now it's the only thing to do", when all you have done is what brought you to the present day conditions.
    Nobody's questioning Chen launching an Android phone now that resources have been reallocated to the single purpose of launching an Android phone. It's a no brainer.
    Heck, it's obvious that if you crash a car into a wall you have no choice but buying a new one. But in this case the road was slippery, brakes were faulty and tyres were bad - nevertheless the driver was speeding and configuring his new car in his mind.
    09-27-15 09:15 AM
  10. The_Passporter's Avatar
    But if the Priv sells well and obtains the security certifications, there is even less need to support a second OS.

    Don't forget too that they have essentially eliminated their entire OS and device team, and they would probably have to strip the Android Runtime out of future BB10 updates.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    What you say does make sense yes but that is still speculation. If we take what JC said, we can assume it is here to stay for corporate and no one knows if BB10 could gain ground in coming years due to a possible shift towards BlackBerry. Look at how HTC is doing now compared to earlier times when android was still in its infant stages or Sony how they went downward after the true smart phone market evolved. Every phone manufactured has a rise and fall and I foresee Apple having its day again one day but I do hope that the future holds a life for BB10. Yeah I'm reaching but that's hope I guess.

    Posted via CB10
    Allanon89 likes this.
    09-27-15 09:22 AM
  11. conite's Avatar

    There's no point in saying "now it's the only thing to do", when all you have done is what brought you to the present day conditions.
    I don't think you have the context of my post, or the chain that preceded it.

    I had offered my opinion that BlackBerry had two options in the here and now - pursue BB10 into the ground, or take a chance and try to retain some of its glory by injecting it into Android and launching the Priv.

    The response was that there was perhaps a third, paradigm shifting solution.

    I was asking what that could be, reminding the poster of what I felt was the here and now.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    09-27-15 09:47 AM
  12. southlander's Avatar
    Just because Blackberry can't seem to make their products sell doesn't mean Android is a good choice, but that's seems to be the default choice people are pushing as the only option. Again, totally false choice, or at least it was. That die is now cast it seems.

    I was hoping I would be wrong about that, and that The slider would work out. Now I'm asking why I would care either way.

    KAM
    I agree. No one knows how this will work out -- either way. BlackBerry 10 though -- we don't need a crystal ball in that case.
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    09-27-15 09:47 AM
  13. southlander's Avatar
    Stop with the false dichotomy already.
    There is no false dichotomy. BlackBerry doesn't have to use Android. They could instead, invent the next great thing that will topple Android and iOS and smartphones in general and make billions doing so. If they do that then great. I wouldn't bet on it.

    Their MDM and IoT businesses are peanuts compared to the money they made on hardware and BIS fees, by the way.

    Perhaps there is some super brilliant way to turn around BlackBerry 10, though I have yet to see it stated on CrackBerry. The biggest fail idea that gets repeated is more ads.. more ads. As if they even have something to advertise against the iPhone.

    Me... I just think it will be cool to have at least ONE Android phone by BlackBerry to see what it is like. That's all. But I am also open to a total turnaround where BlackBerry storms (no pun intended) back to relevance "their way", using their OS.
    09-27-15 10:02 AM
  14. Uzi's Avatar
    At least with going android they have the apps (ecosystem) that is one great selling point
    09-27-15 10:10 AM
  15. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    At least with going android they have the apps (ecosystem) that is one great selling point
    It is a great selling point for THOUSANDS of Android hardware manufacturers. Now try and become better and/or cheaper than most of them to make people buy your phones rather than everyone elses.

    I fail to see BlackBerry having resources needed to compete with Samsung, LG and countless others, both in the hardware and price race.
    09-27-15 10:15 AM
  16. southlander's Avatar
    It is a great selling point for THOUSANDS of Android hardware manufacturers. Now try and become better and/or cheaper than most of them to make people buy your phones rather than everyone elses.
    The hardware keyboard. No one else has it. No one else can make and sell it without getting sued like Typo, and losing. The questions are how big a market is there, and how much of a price premium does that command. Why do you think they chose a slider to attempt this?
    09-27-15 10:19 AM
  17. conite's Avatar
    It is a great selling point for THOUSANDS of Android hardware manufacturers. Now try and become better and/or cheaper than most of them to make people buy your phones rather than everyone elses.

    I fail to see BlackBerry having resources needed to compete with Samsung, LG and countless others, both in the hardware and price race.
    It's not about a race to the bottom on pricing, it's about BlackBerry providing a unique value-add experience - patented physical keyboard and security hardening. They hope to carve out a niche.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    The_Passporter and Shadowyugi like this.
    09-27-15 10:19 AM
  18. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    You need to generate huge hardware sales within the next two quarters. What is your mysterious third option and your new paradigm?
    That option surely ISN'T to keep selling the Leap and Classic with their 2010 hardware that NO ONE wants to buy in 2015 and get stuck with it accross 2016 and 2017. My Nexus 4 from 2012 has twice more powerful hardware than the Leap.

    My option is to quickly put Passport hardware into a Z50 and Q50 and replace the NOT SELLING models with them.
    09-27-15 10:21 AM
  19. conite's Avatar
    My option is to quickly put Passport hardware into a Z50 and Q50 and replace the NOT SELLING models with them.
    That would only hold onto some of the remaining few BB10 users. BlackBerry needs to convert millions of users from other platforms, and I don't think that would do it.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    09-27-15 10:28 AM
  20. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    It's not about a race to the bottom on pricing, it's about BlackBerry providing a unique value-add experience - patented physical keyboard and security hardening. They hope to carve out a niche.
    Patented or not, be sure that similar keyboards (if it only turns out to be popular) will soon appear from everyone else. As for "security hardening", while maybe enterprises will like it, if it means locked bootloader, no possibility to root the device and other restrictions like that, I can't see how average users would be dying for it. Like if it was a non-jailbreakable iPhone.
    09-27-15 10:29 AM
  21. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    That would only hold onto some of the remaining few BB10 users.
    That's not true, because even the dated Leap or Classic still find new customers. Not many, but still (someone bought those 800,000 units of which not all were Passports, right?). Or are you trying to say that it is only Z10 users upgrading to the Leap, only to get precisely the same hardware as what they've had (not to mention Z30, whose CPU was faster).

    So if there are new customers buying such awfully dated Leaps and Classics, then at least several times more people would be buying their successors with 3-fold faster hardware and decent camera. Even if Chen's ultimate goal is to abandon BB10, why not sell in the upcoming quarters 2 million phones instead of 800,000?
    09-27-15 10:33 AM
  22. conite's Avatar
    Patented or not, be sure that similar keyboards (if it only turns out to be popular) will soon appear from everyone else. As for "security hardening", while maybe enterprises will like it, if it means locked bootloader, no possibility to root the device and other restrictions like that, I can't see how average users would be dying for it. Like if it was a non-jailbreakable iPhone.
    BlackBerry's patents are very, very strong with keyboards. I wouldn't underestimate that. I don't think it would be worth it for others to attack that much smaller niche.

    There is a strong enthusiast rooting crowd for sure, but there are plenty of conventional folks out there too. A lot of people think about privacy but don't want to give up their ecosystem for it - now they won't have to. Again, we're only talking about carving out a niche. BlackBerry does not need to take over the world.

    Either way, the available market is orders of magnitude larger than their existing BB10 client base.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    09-27-15 10:36 AM
  23. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    The hardware keyboard. No one else has it.
    Come on, Nokia had sliding keyboards before Google was founded. And everyone will have them if the Priv's one only turns out to be popular. Modified this way or another to avoid getting sued, and not necessarily worse.

    Besides.... try and sue the Chinese. They even cloned the whole Russian Su-27 aircraft.
    09-27-15 10:40 AM
  24. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    A lot of people think about privacy but don't want to give up their ecosystem for it - now they won't have to.
    This is very optimistic of you. Because Android is still so insecure and vulnerable in so many aspects, that to really and fully protect it it'll take BlackBerry forever.

    It is enough that a couple of serious security holes are discovered here and there that BlackBerry didn't protect, and the reputation of their "secure Android" will evaporate.
    09-27-15 10:45 AM
  25. Allanon89's Avatar
    Actually I think I have the context.

    The response was that there was perhaps a third, paradigm shifting solution.
    I think the here and now you're both referring to is at some point in 2014.
    In the real here and now they have been developing the Priv with Android for a long time, so there's no sane choice but releasing it. There's no choice at all here and now, because resources have been allocated in a way that leaves no other option. There's nothing new on the BB10 front because of the shift in development! What you don't seem to accept is that the fact they have got just one chance now is indissolubly linked to past choices made by the same people.

    I don't want to speak on behalf of anyone else - and unfortunately my ability to make my point is severely limited by my knowledge of language - but I think it is unbelievably obvious that a "third way" is not, can not and does not want to be a solution they might come up with right now and deliver in a year or so. It is something they could have been brewing in the background in order to really change things, while they went with Android instead.

    At the time when the decision was made there were maybe three options: double down on BB10, completely concentrate on Android, or that "third way" that might or might not have involved BB10. The choice was made. Here and now is the time when we can just watch the outcome of choices already made.

    Paradigm shifting solutions have to be carefully prepared - that's the reason why Steve Jobs is regarded by many as an innovator.
    Sorry for stating the obvious above, but I think the "You are now here. Ok..., go." does not lay the premises for an intellectually honest discussion if you refuse to accept that mentioning a third way does not mean saying there's an easy third way out of NOW, but that a third way could have been envisioned before and unveiled to the world NOW. Sorry for my convoluted answers.
    Troy Tiscareno and Shadowyugi like this.
    09-27-15 10:53 AM
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