11-09-15 01:29 AM
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  1. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Indeed we are on BurningPlatform
    Yeah, and it very closely resembles the Nokia story. Same way of killing their own platforms (to make people shift to the new one) and switching to an alien OS. With results we all know. Let's hope that Mr. Chen is not BlackBerry's Elop.
    Allanon89 likes this.
    09-26-15 12:57 AM
  2. diegonei's Avatar
    diegonei,
    BurningPlatform

    OK, you'll remain happy (for now, but certainly not for ever). And so will I with my Z10. But BlackBerry won't sell two devices which otherwise we would buy. So while maybe WE won't lose much (for now), BBRY won't earn. Few months from now, Chen again will announce another "small revenue drop" which in turn will cause further cost reductions and further BB10 development reductions. On which we'll all lose.
    And if that's what comes comes to that then it comes to that. I am not opposed to things running their natural course. I'd rather have a BB10 device but if they are not capable of running the business why should they be allowed to keep going? Again, I will not save the company. MY position is not going to change things. A fraction of the user base will do as I will, the rest of them will buy updates (Passports ost likely) for their BB10 devices. Some will buy Sliders. Some will drop the platform. I have already agreed to the parts I had and refuted what I find incorrect to about this. Why bring it up again?

    Even if the drivers really are such a problem, this in no way explains not releasing a Z10/Z30 or Q10 successor with the Passport's hardware, for which Mr. Chen DOES HAVE all the drivers, or else how would the Passport be functioning In other words, as I already wrote, creating a Z10 successor with the Passport's specs is merely designing a housing for it.
    You claim to be a dev on the other post. You should know it's not a "if" situation. I already refuted the "there are drivers, there must be updates" argument. Having the drivers means NOTHING. Releasing new devices is based on feasibility. Not driver availability. Stop repeating yourself for I hate to repeat myself. Repeating it won't change anything.

    As for difficulties with "getting them assembled and packed, managing the supply chain..." etc., if such BASICS of manufacturing and selling smartphones are something that BlackBerry cannot cope with then maybe they should switch to planting potatoes...
    Irrelevant. Feasibility. Not difficulty.

    OK, now seriously, these are things you just CAN'T avoid if you manufacture electronics. If you don't want to do it, you need to change your business. It would be the most idiotic excuse I could imagine if I heard that "they can't release a new phone because it would take assembling and packaging it.....".
    Irrelevant. Feasibility. Not difficulty.

    Mind you, even the tiny Jolla managed to design, get assembled, packed, shipped and sold first their phone and now their tablet. So it's doable.
    I have no knowledge of what's going on with Sailfish but yet again, irrelevant. Feasibility. Not difficulty.

    And if they're not sure of how many existing users would upgrade, why not run a survey or something. There are multiple (reliable and scientifically proven) ways to get such sort of info, but they haven't even tried.
    Nobody can predict the future. Not one companu can predict this. I can say I will upgrade based on the survey's info and then not come to for various reasons. There are various (reliable and scientifically proven) to ESTIMATE. Did you attend to the board meetings where such decision not to engage in surveys took place? If so, provide proof. As far as we know they may or may not have done it.

    Sure they are not forced to do it.
    Go on...

    But it is them who won't earn on it at the end of the day.
    Go on...

    Keep Z10, Z30 and Q10 users one more year without any successor and most of them will eventually go away.
    Or they will upgrade to whatever BlackBerry is offering. BOTH are valid outcomes.

    Those people will get themselves some new phone - iOS, WP, Android, whatever.
    Including whatever BlackBerry is offering.

    They'll forget about BB10.
    Possible. Yet there are ex-BBOS users that did not forget BBOS.

    Question is what BBRY will be making money on if majority of existing users leave.
    SOFTWARE! Did you miss that bit?

    Their Android experiment may work or it may not, no one knows. If not, what will remain?
    SOFTWARE! Did you miss that bit?

    Bottom line: no company should disregard existing users that quickly. Nokia also believed that their WP shift would be successful. Well, it ended up as the biggest failure in smartphone history.
    Wasn't BlackBerry the biggest fail according to the media? Or was it Palm, according to them not existing. Please provide sourse for this on claim.

    The full touch form factor, which is what I'm interested in the most, certainly is the world's most popular form factor, (SOURCE please) considering that some 95% of Android phones, all iPhones and WP phones use it. So it definitely is something unprecedented not to have provided a single successor to this form factor in 3 years (as I wrote, the Leap can hardly be considered an upgrade if its specs are identical as the Z10's and worse than the Z30's).
    Pearl? Did anyone see that? Are ya reading my replies mate? When did I mention the Leap? When did I state it wasan update for anything?

    Please feel free to just skip whatever annoys you. You're in no way obliged to read or reply to it, just like I am in no way obliged to only write what you'd like to see.
    Only bits annoying me is where you repeat yourself instead of presenting either proof of what you are saying to refute what I said or drop the issue. Otherwise, fun convo.

    Anyway, as I wrote, there are multiple ways to survey people's expectations and whether they'd update or not. Statistics is a science, there are tools and methods to get fully reliable results. But it takes at least trying.
    I'm a Lean Six Sigma Blackbelt. One must love it's statistics lol.

    Or if they are too scared to risk, then let people preorder it, in which case the worst thing they'd be risking would be that they'd need to return the money if the number of preorders wasn't sufficient. Or do it in a hundred of other possible ways. Just do something instead of whining about poor sales and low revenue.
    Preordering still demands they go through the feasibility study and have the device greenlit. THIS IS NOT KICKSTARTER mate!!!

    I don't think there is any need to get unkind. English is not my native tongue, so I can't express myself as clearly and concisely as I'd do in my language, but I'm really doing my best.
    Neither is it mine. And I don't recall being unkind. Still, I was not and sorry if you felt so.

    I am only trying to say that if a PHONE company tries to save money by NOT MAKING PHONES then it won't get them far. Please feel free to disagree with it.
    And I will (in part): They are a software company that HAPPENS to make phones as part of their integrated solution strategy. The whole point of the Slider is exactly that. They want to keep that part of the business going. They want to go on offering that integrated solution. That means making phones. But if there is no money in there they WON'T. The Slider is the cheapest way to get a new phone out the gates WHILE solving the App Gap for good.

    So if you really want to see a new BB10 device, pray the Slider does well enough (whatever Chen says well enough is). So the hardware division is not killed.
    Marcin Dabrowsky likes this.
    09-26-15 12:59 AM
  3. RyanGermann's Avatar
    So if you really want to see a new BB10 device, pray the Slider does well enough (whatever Chen says well enough is). So the hardware division is not killed.
    It doesn't really make sense to me that if the Android handsets sell well that will inspire status-quo BB10 handset or OS development. It's illogical. I mean THIS illogical:

    http://www.youtube.com/v/jXR-6zEqTGU...hl=en_US&rel=0
    Allanon89 and Jakob Greve like this.
    09-26-15 01:10 AM
  4. diegonei's Avatar
    It doesn't really make sense to me that if the Android handsets sell well that will inspire status-quo BB10 handset or OS development. It's illogical. I mean THIS illogical:
    I'll check the video in the morning, if you don't mind.

    As for the rationale. BB10 devices (as in new ones), need an actual hardware division working. The Slider may or may not generate enough profit to keep the hardware business afloat. If that's the case, there is a chance for BB10 devices to come out.

    Because there is still a hardware business. Not very illogical. I'm (and neither is Chen) promissing there will be new BB10 devices even if the Slider does extremely well, Apple-well. But if it fails and they kill the hardware business then it is done..

    Not so illogical now, I expect.

    Now fellas, it's 2:16am. Night all.

    PS: Gooood... GOoooooooOOoood....
    09-26-15 01:16 AM
  5. kingrizz's Avatar
    On the same day that John Chen underwhelming unveils the Priv, my local Apple Store literally had a queue out the door and around the corner with people wanting to buy a slightly updated iPhone.

    If you build it, they will come.

    I am in the market for a new phone to replace my Q10 after my Passport failed (screen lift, no warranty support). They have nothing to offer me. Bit hard to make money when you have nothing to sell.

    John Chen seems focused solely on cost reduction. He seems to have forgotten the part where you need to spend money to make money.

    Posted via CB10
    Agree with this! Even if you look at the great demonstration Mr Chen have on the Priv you can see he uses a bb10 device also as was trying to use gestures! So why not continue to believe in the OS for simple consumers along with businesses?!


    Posted via CB10
    09-26-15 01:21 AM
  6. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Please read with a jaunty slightly condscending tone. I don't mean to be mean, but come on, seriously?

    As for the rationale. BB10 devices (as in new ones), need an actual hardware division working. The Slider may or may not generate enough profit to keep the hardware business afloat. If that's the case, there is a chance for BB10 devices to come out.
    A chance like "Hey, Satan! Here's a snowbal... oh, that's too bad."

    Because there is still a hardware business.
    Oh, come now. You don't believe that BlackBerry will take the millions of dollars in profit from wildly successful Android device sales to make SERIOUS investment in BB10, do you? Really? So they can lose $100 on every BB10 device they sell? Really? I believe you are being slightly not completely honest. Not with me, with yourself.

    Not very illogical. I'm (and neither is Chen) promissing there will be new BB10 devices even if the Slider does extremely well, Apple-well. But if it fails and they kill the hardware business then it is done.
    I think I understand what you mean. If there is no hardware division, there is no hardware division to not make BlackBerry 10 devices. If Android is a huge success, then the hardware division still exists, so BlackBerry can not make money-losing BB10 devices and focus solely on Android devices. THAT I can get on board with. I believe that Chen is the engineer on that train.

    The notion that they would use some of the money to make BB10 run on the same hardware as Android devices does make sense... so... why not do it now. To save the little bit of money it would cost? I mean, will there be a business case to invest in BB10 to get it running on the slider in 6 months, when BB10 market share has declined to .1% (because of how successful BlackBerry has been at convincing BB10 customers to buy the Slider?)

    Not so illogical now, I expect.
    No, still illogical, and also, it makes me

    You may think I'm a hypocrite: because I'm being Mr. Buzzkill on threads that hold out hope of BB10 being "well supported" by BlackBerry.

    Here's the thing: I have HOPE in the market, in the customers, in the BB community, in the people, and I have hope for the technology. I believe that BB10 is excellent, I believe that not enough potential BB10 enthusiasts are aware of BB10: that there would be a sustainable market for BB10 if BlackBerry didn't just mess up at every turn.

    I want BlackBerry Ltd. to approach the market hopefully, and try to not just lie to our faces and botch the job every chance they get. I get kind of upset when BlackBerry management disrespects us, their most loyal customers. Lying is a form of disrespect.

    Suggestions that a 'successful' handset division that is successful BECAUSE of Android OS on BlackBerry devices will lead to further development of BB10 is nonsensical and, yep, still illogical. Any real success of Android on BlackBerry hardware is not a boost to BB10, but it is the ultimate downfall of ANY investment in BB10. Android's success on BB10 hardware would disincentivize BlackBerry to write one single line of code beyond whatever contracts they have with the various government and large enterprise customers. The absolute MINIMUM to satisfy those contracts. What it WOULD do is spur investment in hardening Android more and more so that these key customers would be satisfied with Android only so that BlackBerry wouldn't have to continue to bear the burden of maintaining money-losing BB10: it would ACCELERATE BB10's complete irrelevance, not slow it down or reverse it.

    It's like the stock market. Let's call one stock "Android" and the other "BB10". You own a whole bunch of "BB10" stock and it's dropping, a little more every week. Then you buy a bit of Android stock. It starts to rise. and rise and rise and rise. Eventually you have millions of dollars of profit in Android and what do you do? SELL A BUNCH OF ANDROID STOCK TO BUY BB10 STOCK WHICH CONTINUES TO DECLINE WEEK AFTER WEEK? No, that would be illogical. What you DO do (doodoo :-P ) is SELL your BB10 stock to buy MORE Android stock. That's logical.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 09-26-15 at 01:54 AM.
    09-26-15 01:29 AM
  7. dolco's Avatar
    Can they afford NOT to?

    BB10 isn't selling. They needed to do something and doing the same thing would not work.

    Do I love android and am I going to buy the Slider? Neither. But Going for a secure android device that's got a keyboard but can be used as a general slab works because:
    • You don't have to pay to use Android. You agree to Google's terms and put it in your device. No steep development cost, no licence fee. They could have gone Windows Phone 10, but that would have meant paying fees and royalties to Microsoft;
    • Some people (a small nich? a lot? I don't know, but they exist) would like a more secure android phone;
    • Some old BBOS users do miss the keyboard but are knees deep into Android and it doesn't make sense to move now;
    • Some companies are too knees deep into android and desperately need a secure option.

    There are plenty more reasons. There are just the one I can thing off now.

    You don't need to love the Slider. But don't hate on it either. The Slider does well, we can hope for BB10 support (and devices) to pick up.

    I'm not dismissing the chance that at some time BlackBerry can drop BB10. It can happen. It's just not happening today.
    Actually it is exactly opposite. WP/W10M is free for OEMs and OEMS with Android devices have to pay license fees to Microsoft.
    09-26-15 02:19 AM
  8. kuje75's Avatar
    In no time, we'll be just a regular joe like everyone else. No more I can tell people that i'm different.

    ClassicSQC100-1/10.3.2.2639
    09-26-15 02:21 AM
  9. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    (a lot)
    Clearly, you know everything so much better than I, so I give up at this point. The only question is, if everything really is as it should be and BlackBerry really know what they do, why is it all such a disaster.

    BB10 could have been the third OS, as a system it has all it takes for this. IMHO, what brought it to its today's pitiful marketshare certainly wasn't BB10 itself (which IMO is the most stable, secure, efficient and well thought-out smartphone OS of all the existing ones) but the way BlackBerry supported and promoted it, with lack of attractive powerful phones and no decent support for native developers in the first place. That's my opinion. Don't agree with it? Fine. I already know that I won't convince you, so let's not waste our time.

    Switching to software model? Sure, maybe it'll keep them alive. But the genuine reason for this is still their BB10 failure. So it will be a life boat, not an intended and long-planned strategy.

    So if you really want to see a new BB10 device, pray the Slider does well enough
    They are much more important problems in this world to pray for. What I tried to explain to you was that expecting a Z10 successor is not something harmful for BlackBerry. It is me (and surely not just me) willing to give them my money for that. If they don't want my money, I surely won't pray for it. The day my Z10 becomes too slow or breaks, I'll just switch to something else. I don't need BlackBerry to live, it's BlackBerry who needs customers to live (rather than leave). Maybe the software business will be enough. Or maybe not. As long as they don't want my money (in exchange for a good Z10 successor) it is THEIR problem, not mine. For now, due to no successor being offered (for almost 3 years and clearly not in any foreseeable future), I'll keep using my Z10 as long as it works, of which BlackBerry won't benefit ANYTHING - at their sole discretion and risk.

    As for the Priv itself, as I already have Android 5.1.1 on my Nexus and I'll surely get on it the Android 6 update the day it comes out, and also considering that the Nexus with its unlocked bootloader allows me to multi-boot Ubuntu Touch, Sailfish OS and some further custom ROMs on it, I can't see absolutely any reason why would I ever want to shell out any money on this Priv which "for BlackBerry tightened Android security reasons" will certainly be locked, who knows, maybe even not rootable. BlackBerry logo alone surely isn't enough for me to pay for it, and in my personal case there are no other clearly perceptible advantages. And if I ever need any newer Android device then it certainly will be some new Nexus too, just because of its aforementioned flexibility and openness.

    P.S. You don't need to answer, I think we've already agreed to disagree.

    P.S.2 If you weren't commenting on every single sentence separately but rather tried to read at least whole paragraphs, I bet you would have understood a little bit more from what I was trying to explain.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 09-26-15 at 02:52 AM.
    Allanon89 likes this.
    09-26-15 02:35 AM
  10. KAM1138's Avatar
    Just curious, other than your Z10, how many other BB10 devices have you purchased to date? 800,000 devices sold is pathetic. All those crying about the demise of BB10 should shut up and put the money where the mouth is, so we won't be having this discussion.
    Well, I dumped my contract with Sprint to get over to the Z10 on the day it was available, at a cost penalty, bought the Z10 for the full price outright (T-Mobile), and had been waiting for a device that fit what I was looking for. The z30 was a bit too early, and I wasn't convinced about the Passport, although I was intrigued by some of its features (and sorry to hear they hadn't done more with it). I got really excited about the Slider, and I couldn't wait for that, but slowly as the rumors started pointing more and more towards Android, I decided that the Passport SE would be my best shot--so I bought that outright as well.

    Even Prior to BB10, I bought the Playbook and a Bold 9930. They screwed playbook owners hard, but I stayed loyal.

    I didn't fail to come back as a customer to BlackBerry--they chose mostly lateral moves, instead of offering a full touch flagship, which they STILL don't have--last one being the Z30.

    I'm pretty sure that the remaining Blackberry fans were very willing to come along, and even followed them onto things like the Passport (good choice as it turns out). No, the remaining BlackBerry fans have been totally loyal, the BlackBerry has let US down, not the other way around.

    So, you're WAY off base blaming the people who HAVE supported BlackBerry for years. Really unfair view you are forwarding there.

    KAM
    Allanon89 and kingrizz like this.
    09-26-15 02:43 AM
  11. KAM1138's Avatar
    Not much DRAMA here......(sarcasm)
    Yeah, you're probably right. BlackBerry would NEVER promise something and then totally drop a product. No, not ever, as I stare at the Paperweight...er I mean Playbook on my desk.

    KAM
    09-26-15 02:47 AM
  12. KAM1138's Avatar
    Time will tell about the future of BB10, but Chen has made it very clear that BB10 is here to stay because it is viewed as essential to provide the best end to end security. So they are releasing an Android device with BlackBerry overtones. Good! I can see people liking the BlackBerry uniqueness that is baked into the Android so that they will continue purchasing BlackBerry Android phones, or they will be willing to try a full on BlackBerry BB10 device.

    To Quote a famous baseball Hall of Famer, Yogi Berra, "It ain't over 'till it's over." People can cry death and demise of BB10, but while it is still kicking and breathing and being updated, there is life. With life and a strategic plan being implemented by a turn-around "genius", Mr. Chen, there is hope. So let us not run ahead of reality. Yes, there is a lot of work to be done, but BlackBerry has been making progress each quarter.
    You think maybe the fact that Blackberry has put its efforts behind a secure android and that they are investing in security companies MIGHT indicate that he's looking forward to a day when actual BB products (as we know them today) won't be there to fill that security roll?

    KAM
    09-26-15 02:50 AM
  13. KAM1138's Avatar
    It is interesting to read back the next year.
    Yeah, everyone meet back at the AndroidCentral Sub-forum...buried along with other insignificant Android phone companies.

    KAM
    Allanon89 likes this.
    09-26-15 02:52 AM
  14. KAM1138's Avatar
    *SNIP*
    I could go on for a few more hours. But instead I'll just conclude that it's only BlackBerry to blame for all this mess.

    Please don't blame developers for slowly abandoning this platform. It takes A LOT of patience and possibility to mostly develop for FUN (and certainly not for any decent revenue) to keep developing for BB10. I still do, but I'm less and less resistant to the fact that my apps can't even be FOUND in this sh*tty store.
    Oh, wait...you mean BlackBerry DID have the means to improve its ecosystem by providing BASIC support to developers instead of hanging them out to dry? I'm sorry--this is just not possible. Didn't you hear--NOTHING is possible except the move to Android--it was the only choice every since before BB10 was even released. Yep, totally inevitable.

    Seriously--I didn't realize it was that bad. Ridiculous. My sympathies.

    KAM
    Uzi and Allanon89 like this.
    09-26-15 03:05 AM
  15. KAM1138's Avatar
    Hello,

    I have to say--anyone hoping that the Slider meeting with some untold success will lead to more BB10 development is going to be disappointed.

    If you ran a company, and a certain product line failed for whatever reason, but another one did well...which one are you going to support/

    If the Android phone somehow takes off, BB10 will be forgotten as soon as they can possibly end it. It's what they are HOPING happens. It's why it hasn't received the support that it needed. They've already decided it's going, they're just soft-selling that, and looking for the best way to put it out of the misery they forced it to be.

    The writing is on the wall here, even though I don't think it needed to be that way, it is.

    KAM
    09-26-15 03:12 AM
  16. southlander's Avatar
    Lol. Some of you folks get too emotional over an OS.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    09-26-15 03:17 AM
  17. kingrizz's Avatar
    Lol. Some of you folks get too emotional over an OS.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    Could be because to most it was more than just an OS! We had belief in Blackberry when others said they were dead and for BlackBerry to return the favour like this is a bit of a slap in the face. Even from a developers perspective (As so kindly pointed out) BlackBerry have been far from appreciative!

    Posted via CB10
    09-26-15 03:27 AM
  18. southlander's Avatar
    Could be because to most it was more than just an OS! We had belief in Blackberry when others said they were dead and for BlackBerry to return the favour like this is a bit of a slap in the face. Even from a developers perspective (As so kindly pointed out) BlackBerry have been far from appreciative!

    Posted via CB10
    If you want BlackBerry to succeed then I would think you'd be glad to see them try something else when what they are doing is leading them to 0% marketshare.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    09-26-15 03:30 AM
  19. kingrizz's Avatar
    If you want BlackBerry to succeed then I would think you'd be glad to see them try something else when what they are doing is leading them to 0% marketshare.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    I wanted them to succeed with BB10 if I wanted an Android would of got one, it's that simple.

    Posted via CB10
    Allanon89 likes this.
    09-26-15 03:44 AM
  20. southlander's Avatar
    I wanted them to succeed with BB10 if I wanted an Android would of got one, it's that simple.

    Posted via CB10
    Well in the end it'll be iOS and Android only. Can't help it nor stop it.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    09-26-15 04:00 AM
  21. kingrizz's Avatar
    Well in the end it'll be iOS and Android only. Can't help it nor stop it.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    Agreed therefore don't believe Chens lies, bb10 has no future only than being the "workhorse" for another project.

    Posted via CB10
    09-26-15 04:05 AM
  22. int19's Avatar
    And I will (in part): They are a software company that HAPPENS to make phones as part of their integrated solution strategy. The whole point of the Slider is exactly that. They want to keep that part of the business going. They want to go on offering that integrated solution. That means making phones. But if there is no money in there they WON'T. The Slider is the cheapest way to get a new phone out the gates WHILE solving the App Gap for good.

    So if you really want to see a new BB10 device, pray the Slider does well enough (whatever Chen says well enough is). So the hardware division is not killed.
    Since when are they a software company? They've been making hardware as long as they've been developing software - surely they have some experience with hardware design and manufacture. Seems like a terribly poor excuse to me, especially when tiny companies can bring their products to market with the assistance of Kickstarter and its ilk.

    Posted via CB10
    09-26-15 04:10 AM
  23. int19's Avatar
    Pebble, a company of 100 employees, has managed to bring to market four models since 2013, with one million units shipped. They've also managed to cultivate a thriving community, brand and eco-system, with an increasing retail presence.

    Yet BlackBerry, having developed mobile devices since 1996 and employing over 6,000 people, is claiming that device manufacture and supply chain logistics is too hard? That developing drivers for their own operating system is too resource intensive?

    Whilst they're making claims that QNX driver development is too prohibitively expensive to release more than a couple of models a year, they're trying to sell the same software to other OEMs for embedded systems.

    In other words, BlackBerry is a software company that won't develop products using their own software.

    Bringing devices to market is hard - especially when you're inept.

    Meanwhile, for every BlackBerry there's a hundred hungry startups like Pebble, each with more genuine drive, innovation and talent than the monolith BlackBerry could ever hope to have.

    Posted via CB10
    Allanon89 likes this.
    09-26-15 04:26 AM
  24. anon(679606)'s Avatar
    I have the passport, my first BlackBerry... hub is OK, BBM is useless, security...Meh, link/blend are useful, but MOSTLY use android apps MOSTLY working just fine... BB10 R.I.P. ....yawn !!

    Bumpkin
    09-26-15 05:22 AM
  25. KemKev's Avatar
    I wonder if anybody out there still miss rotary phones? Companies and technology, like just about everything else, evolve. Given time, we'll get used to it. I love my BB10 Passport and I'm looking forward to the Slider. Having options is fantastic!
    09-26-15 05:31 AM
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