[Emaderton3]

Nobody is interested in trying to sell BB10 devices, and the cost to be able to put BB10 on new hardware would be far too huge.


Posted via CB10

Yup. No one has licensed it. They can't even get all major carriers to endorse their Android phones. Who is going to agree to BB10 phones that already didn't sell before?

Posted via CB10

[anon(8679041)]

They can't even get all major carriers to endorse their Android phones. Who is going to agree to BB10 phones that already didn't sell before?

What about carrier free and sell from a single location with international shipping?

[Emaderton3]

What about carrier free and sell from a single location with international shipping?

When has a model like this been successful? Nobody will know they exist.

Posted via CB10

[butterbean1983]

There are websites like zapier that automate workflows, but unfortunately BB10's browser won't browse zapier very well. I think if it could, BB10 might work a lot better.

[Elephant_Canyon]

You mean drivers installation cost? Aside from programmer's work

Drivers are the least of it at this point. The latest SOC that BB10 will run on, the Snapdragon 801, is 3 years old and not even 64-bit. There would be a ton of work to do to make it even boot on currently available hardware.

[dpgo]

Drivers are the least of it at this point. The latest SOC that BB10 will run on, the Snapdragon 801, is 3 years old and not even 64-bit. There would be a ton of work to do to make it even boot on currently available hardware.

I suppose that qnx is being updated and supporting many different hardware, including new.

So they should have the knowledge inside of the house.
The main problem is that BlackBerry is not able to put their products in the market. So if they do somethin good or bad, they will not go to profits.

But there are many cheap cost companies with cheap workforce which could perfect allies, and could find a market for a non android thingy.

And about a technologies Jolla/sailfish should be another good partner.

When you are a small one go to the war alone is a suicide


Posted via CB10

[co4nd]

by selling smartphones perhaps?

They aren't making new BB10 smartphones and no one else is interested either.

[drobbie]

Until there is a significant uptick in ROI for BlackBerry; don't expect any investment in mobile. BB10 is dead

[Troy Tiscareno]

How feasible would be to start a crowdfunding campaign?

Perhaps you should do some Googling and investigate the many previous attempts at crowdsourcing the development of niche OS smartphones. It should also be kept in mind that all of those projects were based on open-source OSs, which BB10 is not. Absolutely nothing can be done to BB10 without access to source code and without BB's signing keys - in other words, you'd need BB's full support or no amount of money would matter.

Why millions?
Say two developers only would work 8hr/day only on developing BB OS. That's around $200k a year. Aren't two developers enough to launch 2 updates within a year?

And then they could outsource that work in other countries with lower wages. In some countries a senior developer gets even $4k a month (not kidding, this is why a lot of companies do outsourcing)!

Why did BB employ a software development team for BB10 of 3400 people* to get BB10 developed in the first place if 4 guys in India could do it? Is it possible that maybe it's far, FAR more complex than you imagine?

*This does NOT include the marketing, sales, distribution, component management, HR, or other departments. That was just BB10 OS and app development, testing, and management of that division.

[kvndoom]

Why did BB employ a software development team for BB10 of 3400 people* to get BB10 developed in the first place if 4 guys in India could do it? Is it possible that maybe it's far, FAR more complex than you imagine?

*This does NOT include the marketing, sales, distribution, component management, HR, or other departments. That was just BB10 OS and app development, testing, and management of that division.

You'd think that if 4 guys in a sweatshop could build the greatest phone OS of all time, it would have been done by now. Welcome to Crackberry.

[anon(8679041)]

Why did BB employ a software development team for BB10 of 3400 people* to get BB10 developed in the first place if 4 guys in India could do it? Is it possible that maybe it's far, FAR more complex than you imagine?

*This does NOT include the marketing, sales, distribution, component management, HR, or other departments. That was just BB10 OS and app development, testing, and management of that division.

We are not talking here about re-constructing BB OS from scratch with 4k people. Just few updates, improvements and I think one year is more than enough for two experimented BB developers to release two updates within a year, by testing and doing all that work themselves. Not saying HUGE updates. But any updates as they are tested and completed. They could also break them down into small updates, like fixed this bug, that bug, added this small function. And in time we will get somewhere, rather then staying still.

[Chuck Finley69]

We are not talking here about re-constructing BB OS from scratch with 4k people. Just few updates, improvements and I think one year is more than enough for two experimented BB developers to release two updates within a year, by testing and doing all that work themselves. Not saying HUGE updates. But any updates as they are tested and completed. They could also break them down into small updates, like fixed this bug, that bug, added this small function. And in time we will get somewhere, rather then staying still.

But, why? BlackBerry doesn't seem to have any interest and there's obviously no financial incentive for the company to bring to shareholders.

[dpgo]

But, why? BlackBerry doesn't seem to have any interest and there's obviously no financial incentive for the company to bring to shareholders.

I' d call it 'short vision', 'lack of respect for users', '2 parameter formula'...

And as in many things the cheapest choice becomes the most expensive.

A couple of developer can keep some value in the huge investment however a completed outdated OS cost nothing.

Posted via CB10

[Elephant_Canyon]

I' d call it 'short vision', 'lack of respect for users', '2 parameter formula'...

I’d call it “not throwing good money after bad.”

[app_Developer]

You mean drivers installation cost? Aside from programmer's work

Someone has to develop drivers for KEYone.

Name an operating system team in the world that has 2 developers on it. Even Fire, which is based on AOSP and Linux and didn't have to SoC drivers, still had hundreds of people on it.

Also, even junior developers do not cost $100k. People forget about payroll taxes (which are sizable in Canada) and benefits and other overhead.

The math did not add up for BB last year or the year before or the year before that. Why would it suddenly work this year? What exactly has changed?

[ppeters914]

The math did not add up for BB last year or the year before or the year before that. Why would it suddenly work this year? What exactly has changed?

Nothing has changed......people are still delusional....sigh....

Posted via CB10 / AT&T /Z10 STL100-3 /10.3.3.2205

[Chuck Finley69]

I' d call it 'short vision', 'lack of respect for users', '2 parameter formula'...

And as in many things the cheapest choice becomes the most expensive.

A couple of developer can keep some value in the huge investment however a completed outdated OS cost nothing.

Posted via CB10

What short vision or lack of respect for users?

[anon(8679041)]

What short vision or lack of respect for users?

I think he meant teasing users with small updates and delusional feature it'd create.

[Troy Tiscareno]

We are not talking here about re-constructing BB OS from scratch with 4k people. Just few updates, improvements and I think one year is more than enough for two experimented BB developers to release two updates within a year, by testing and doing all that work themselves. Not saying HUGE updates. But any updates as they are tested and completed. They could also break them down into small updates, like fixed this bug, that bug, added this small function. And in time we will get somewhere, rather then staying still.

Again, you are GROSSLY underestimating the amount of work and testing and compatibility that goes into such an effort. It is incredibly expensive because it is incredibly complex, and because you NEED experts in all kinds of things. You modify a library for the browser, and now BlueTooth doesn't work - but you don't know why. Who knows BlueTooth? That would be the BlueTooth team - but you don't have one. Oops!

Somehow, you introduced a bug that breaks MMS - who is your MMS expert? Oh, don't have one. Who knows everything there is to know about cellular radios? Who knows the ins-and-outs of external storage encryption? Who can answer your questions about display driver optimization, or web encryption standards, or a million other things?

Developers aren't interchangeable - just like you can't replace Michelangelo with a random art student - or even a skilled landscape artist. It takes years and years to learn a specific niche and be great at it, and smartphones have a TON of niches, each one requiring very deep knowledge - and they must all play together perfectly or things go sideways VERY quickly.

I don't mean to offend you, but it's quite clear that you have no idea how complicated all this is, and how vital it is that you have a whole TEAM of people - including a LOT of world-class experts, who could command high salaries at dozens of other companies - to do this kind of work. And then, on top of that, we're talking about BB10, which is built on top of QNX, which isn't especially common in the industry, and that means that far fewer people know enough about it to be experts.

None of this matters anyway, because it's never, ever going to happen, but you really need to come to grips with the fact that you aren't going to take 2 or 4 guys and create any kind of relevant, competent updates to something as complex as BB10 unless they've all been working on it for years - and those guys are virtually all gone already.

[eshropshire]

I' d call it 'short vision', 'lack of respect for users', '2 parameter formula'...

And as in many things the cheapest choice becomes the most expensive.

A couple of developer can keep some value in the huge investment however a completed outdated OS cost nothing.

Posted via CB10

If that was the case then BlackBerry should still be updating BBOS. For that matter Nokia should offer Symbian updates. Microsoft should be updating Windows RT.

As someone who manages a multi tens of millions enterprise software division I can tell everyone their estimates for a BB10 update beyond just a few bug fixes and security update is way off.

First the work would have to be done in NA. Offshoring OS work would be massive. I don't believe BlackBerry has ever done any software development in low cost locations like India. I manage several hundred developers in India. The legal and business setup process is long and complicated. If BlackBerry started now they might have a minor buggy update in two years.

An update to change core OS functionality like a complete Web replacement and associated work would at minimum take a team of ten engineers and 5 to 8 testers. Then add on development, project and product management, plus, operations, facilities, hardware and IT support. Total cost including salary, benefits and employment taxes and the annual cost is at a minimum 2.5 million.

I know my estimate is low, I have not added in the cost of recruiting all of these new employees. Now add in the time it will take them to learn how to work on the BB10 code. All of this work for what an update for 3+ year old phones?

[app_Developer]

An update to change core OS functionality like a complete Web replacement and associated work would at minimum take a team of ten engineers and 5 to 8 testers. Then add on development, project and product management, plus, operations, facilities, hardware and IT support. Total cost including salary, benefits and employment taxes and the annual cost is at a minimum 2.5 million.

I know my estimate is low, I have not added in the cost of recruiting all of these new employees. Now add in the time it will take them to learn how to work on the BB10 code. All of this work for what an update for 3+ year old phones?

Yeah, like you said the actual cost will be higher when all is said and done.

To add to what you said, the next question is who would even take these jobs. "A" players are not going to take a job that is all about producing minor updates to an OS that only a handful of people use. That job description will almost certainly attract C level talent which will then drive the actual costs even higher.

Retention/churn is another factor.

[dpgo]

Now everything is expensive but BlackBerry should think about all these facts when they decide to integrate so deep a fork of webkit and keep the source code closed.

In conclusion it is a proof of what happen to users who chose companies based in no open source licenses....


Posted via CB10

[i_plod_an_dr_void]

Yeah, like you said the actual cost will be higher when all is said and done.

To add to what you said, the next question is who would even take these jobs. "A" players are not going to take a job that is all about producing minor updates to an OS that only a handful of people use. That job description will almost certainly attract C level talent which will then drive the actual costs even higher.

Retention/churn is another factor.

Actually software maintenance and incremental change, additional feature stuffing etc is the specialty of the "C" level developer. They tend not to wander too often (reducing costly churn), and are perfectly happy on maintenance projects...and they usually cost less, not more (definitely in salary). They aren't rewriting the system. A-level talent would actually likely be more expensive because retraining when they fly the coup to find their next dream-job is pricey. You don't need the engineer when you are fixing the plumbing in the house....and older workers with established families and residences in a place like waterloo, are the ideal type of c-level talent and possibly new graduates of modest talent as well.

[Leyra B10]

For those who don't know what Progressive Web Apps (PWA) are, take a look at these videos:
short video ( )
longer video ( )

I know this is smth relatively new, not much information on the web yet, but maybe there are someone who could answer some questions here for us, for those who really won't let BB10 go away.

The questions I have would be:
1) Does BlackBerry OS meet all the criteria needed to implement PWA and to have them fully functional? If not, what's it missing?
2) Have you read/seen anywhere mr. Chen expressing his opinion on this? I could not find anything, but still, maybe someone knows smth.
3) Any long-term risks that you see if BB10 would start focusing on PWA?
4) Would implementing PWA be enough for BB10 to revive? If not, what else should be addressed?

p.s. I know kind of similar thread was created, but I decided to recreate it with proper keywords, so that people could find it easier.
The link to the old one: (https://forums.crackberry.com/genera.../#post12851749)

Thanks

Yea I think they could be provided you put the work in yourself, the native browser is still fairly powerful. All the tactics different parties implement to Identify your device and location is one of the biggest causes behind the browsers poor performance. Its not as resource demanding as I think comments above would lead you to beleive but in some ways its true. You can't expect consumers to put in the effort required.

Posted via CB10

[Leyra B10]

Virtually all of what your first link alludes to can be done with 2 bb10 devices.

Posted via CB10