02-09-18 07:21 PM
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  1. glwerry's Avatar
    Back under your bridge troll! Show me YOUR BBRY securities ! I certainly have a vested interest in the success of BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    Ok, I'm NOT a troll. I don't have BBRY securities, but if I was a shareholder, I would be OUTRAGED if BB tried to bring BB10 back ... I just do NOT see how it could possibly become a viable business stream again.
    11-22-17 10:30 AM
  2. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Back under your bridge troll! Show me YOUR BBRY securities ! I certainly have a vested interest in the success of BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    Not sure what you think your vested interests are but my clients that are shareholders and myself are definitely happy with dropping BB10 AND exiting hardware.

    If some other company wants to come along to license BB10 and/or make devices, as long as we're not shareholders, great....!!!!!

    PS it won't happen because no BOD or executives of any company is that stupid.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    11-22-17 10:39 AM
  3. bobshine's Avatar
    I believe the context was...requests by warrant to intercept communications? what else (like a wire-tap)....but feel free to correct me if wrong. How much does Android hand over to Google and others? all the time, without any warrant? (...and what does Apple collect?). The point is, what's the difference between a Gov't collection or a larg Corporate collection....what are the protections for the individual, or business or other entity.
    BB has historically handed over data or access to government at their request, especially for the retail side of their business. The canadian government had been monitoring the montreal mafia for years... the mafia thought that communications on BB were totally secured.

    Apple on the other hand had assisted and handed unsecured informations to government. However it is known, as a fact, that they don’t assist in cracking secured data (remember that FBI vs Apple case a couple years back?)

    I think BB with their shrinking market share, had to compromise. In order to keep government clients, they had to yield to them.
    Newfangled likes this.
    11-22-17 12:47 PM
  4. bobshine's Avatar
    Ok, I'm NOT a troll. I don't have BBRY securities, but if I was a shareholder, I would be OUTRAGED if BB tried to bring BB10 back ... I just do NOT see how it could possibly become a viable business stream again.
    Exactly! The only way BB can bring BB10 back is by bringing the company private, and “believers” like i_plod_an_dr_void should be the putting their money and investing in it!
    11-22-17 12:52 PM
  5. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    BB has historically handed over data or access to government at their request, especially for the retail side of their business. The canadian government had been monitoring the montreal mafia for years... the mafia thought that communications on BB were totally secured.

    Apple on the other hand had assisted and handed unsecured informations to government. However it is known, as a fact, that they don’t assist in cracking secured data (remember that FBI vs Apple case a couple years back?)

    I think BB with their shrinking market share, had to compromise. In order to keep government clients, they had to yield to them.
    Again let me repeat Lawful Access principles....obviously meaning they were complying with the Laws of Canada in the oft quoted (and misquoted and wildly speculated) case of handing everything over....if there is a problem with the law (and i don't know that there is) then it is the Governments that people need to be going after not BlackBerry.... does the FBI have wiretaps on major suspected crime organizations, yeah I suspect they do, even if the "bad guys" are using iphones.

    BlackBerry CEO tries to reassure users on encryption questions - Technology & Science - CBC News
    11-22-17 01:15 PM
  6. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    BlackBerry has handed over their master encryption key for BBM to allow the Canadian government to intercept millions of messages.

    https://news.vice.com/article/exclus...yption-key-how

    Android is a Google product/service like BBM is a BlackBerry product/service (or at least it was...they've since licensed it to a third party company called Emtek).

    The point is, BlackBerry does collect data and has the means to access at least some of it upon request, just like Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc.

    And BlackBerry has demonstrated that they can and will let governments conduct mass surveillance of that data.

    Are you saying you trust governments with our data more than corporations?

    I don't trust either.

     BlackBerry | CLASSIC
    My understanding is that the "handing over the master keys" storeyline is a myth. If it did it, it would possibly be guilty of fraud, and a breach of contract (implied) to millions of users encrypted communications. Somehow that seems very very unlikely, but then again the laws being passed in Legislatures are the key to your focus here as well (I expect privacy on my non-party-line landline, I would expect the same on my cell -- unless a legal warrant was served to wiretap. Again go look at the laws of the nation in question. Here's some more:
    BlackBerry CEO tries to reassure users on encryption questions - Technology & Science - CBC News
    11-22-17 01:30 PM
  7. Newfangled's Avatar
    My understanding is that the "handing over the master keys" storeyline is a myth. If it did it, it would possibly be guilty of fraud, and a breach of contract (implied) to millions of users encrypted communications. Somehow that seems very very unlikely, but then again the laws being passed in Legislatures are the key to your focus here as well (I expect privacy on my non-party-line landline, I would expect the same on my cell -- unless a legal warrant was served to wiretap. Again go look at the laws of the nation in question. Here's some more:
    BlackBerry CEO tries to reassure users on encryption questions - Technology & Science - CBC News
    Take some time to watch this.

    11-22-17 01:53 PM
  8. Invictus0's Avatar
    Again let me repeat Lawful Access principles....obviously meaning they were complying with the Laws of Canada in the oft quoted (and misquoted and wildly speculated) case of handing everything over....if there is a problem with the law (and i don't know that there is) then it is the Governments that people need to be going after not BlackBerry.... does the FBI have wiretaps on major suspected crime organizations, yeah I suspect they do, even if the "bad guys" are using iphones.

    BlackBerry CEO tries to reassure users on encryption questions - Technology & Science - CBC News
    This article alleges they also bypass Canadian officials and just deal with requests directly.

    BlackBerry hands over user data to help police 'kick ***,' insider says - Technology & Science - CBC News

    Many companies (including BlackBerry's competitors) would comply with court orders but unlike many of those companies BlackBerry doesn't publish a transparency report and they seem to be the only company thats publicly stated they'd try and break their own encryption to help.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasb...feds-demand-it

    My understanding is that the "handing over the master keys" storeyline is a myth. If it did it, it would possibly be guilty of fraud, and a breach of contract (implied) to millions of users encrypted communications. Somehow that seems very very unlikely, but then again the laws being passed in Legislatures are the key to your focus here as well (I expect privacy on my non-party-line landline, I would expect the same on my cell -- unless a legal warrant was served to wiretap. Again go look at the laws of the nation in question. Here's some more:
    BlackBerry CEO tries to reassure users on encryption questions - Technology & Science - CBC News
    The article OP posted only discusses consumer BBM (which doesn't use encryption), not enterprise (which does).
    11-22-17 04:52 PM
  9. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    BlackBerry has handed over their master encryption key for BBM to allow the Canadian government to intercept millions of messages.

    https://news.vice.com/article/exclus...yption-key-how

    Android is a Google product/service like BBM is a BlackBerry product/service (or at least it was...they've since licensed it to a third party company called Emtek).

    The point is, BlackBerry does collect data and has the means to access at least some of it upon request, just like Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc.

    And BlackBerry has demonstrated that they can and will let governments conduct mass surveillance of that data.

    Are you saying you trust governments with our data more than corporations?

    I don't trust either.

     BlackBerry | CLASSIC
    So the so called master key was a triple DES key they used to scramble PIN messages, for a number of reasons. It was baked into all BBOS and BB10 devices. It is difficult to get out of the later BBOS and all BB10 devices, but the early BBOS devices had JTAG port which made it relatively easy to get. That key, the E-Screens access code and the BIS-B access code were each for a short time talismans of great street cred if you had them. But long before the news about the RCMP broke they were lying around like Yahoo email passwords. This was in no small part because none of those things had anything to do with security. I don't know if the RCMP asked BlackBerry for the key, maybe just to be polite, but they wouldn't have had to. But wherever they got the key, the data collection would have to be covered by a valid court order or there would be no convictions.

    Other interesting facts if you had a BES, or any of the free BES like products you could replace the key with another 3DES, AES128 or later AES256. I did this routinely. It was the documented way to make PIN to PIN intra BES secure without setting up a secure pathe between BESs, which was not as easy then as it would be now.

    The only people who ever said BBM was secure out side of a BES (or now enterprise) was the press and fan boys who never read what RIM published. Can't really complain though since the myth did end the careers of a number of organised criminals.

    LeapSTR100-2/10.3.3.2205
    Troy Tiscareno and stlabrat like this.
    11-22-17 05:22 PM
  10. bobshine's Avatar
    Again let me repeat Lawful Access principles....obviously meaning they were complying with the Laws of Canada in the oft quoted (and misquoted and wildly speculated) case of handing everything over....if there is a problem with the law (and i don't know that there is) then it is the Governments that people need to be going after not BlackBerry.... does the FBI have wiretaps on major suspected crime organizations, yeah I suspect they do, even if the "bad guys" are using iphones.

    BlackBerry CEO tries to reassure users on encryption questions - Technology & Science - CBC News

    Ok so if they complied with the laws in Iran, it would be alright? Or the laws in North Korea? Cause they would be lawful access too.

    And what makes you think that BB gives access only when there’s a warrant? BB is like a black hole, they never ever publish any information on who they gave access user day to and when.

    Honestly, if I had something to hide, unless I am protected by BES and the key is safely on my server, I wouldn’t trust BB.

    But again I have nothing to hide so it’s not a factor, that’s why I used the Z30 for so long.
    hazmaju likes this.
    11-22-17 05:22 PM
  11. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Yes I imagine all service providers have a group of employees who have to deal with requests by warrant (especially the Telco's themselves -which somehow aren't mentioned at all in these discussions) -Usually this business is overseen by lawyers - which may instantiate into a group or department, if the nature of the business requires more resources for this task. Of course warrant business must remain confidential by Law, I would imagine. How all of this is "Real news"...is a mystery to me, but it makes for a great headline, which collaterally could damage a corporation's public reputation if a little fake-news gets inserted into the piece....for the purposes of attacting eyeballs.) Readers themselves should read the articles carefully though. Corporate entities don't have unlimited resources to fight warrants. Yes, warrants are confdential. Sensational non-news there mostly....with some unnamed source who maybe worked in marketing or licking envelopes, sensationalizing a pretty ho-hum part of business as usual. Again the focus should be on the laws that a country implements that could be putting undo burdens on operating a business...that's the more interesting conversation (and the key word is undue)....but alas none of this has to do with "Let's talk about bb10", the subject of this thread.

    Speculating, suggesting or giving a visionary mapping out a possible route forward is within the parameters of this thread's OP. We all know the mobile phone is mostly the child of the automobile, and the auto is the mother of the smartphone (it was hard to lug around a 10 pound car battery back in the day, to take the phone out of the car for a walk (though maybe crackberry if it existed then, could have designed a flashy baby carriage (lol) - the mobilephone was still in its infancy). Now in its old-age.....comes back the child....the smartphone.....to help the mother with her aging body....and helping her with the basic functionality. ie The Mother and Child reunion. Why build an essentially embedded smartphone in the car....when there is one industiral strength platform QNX based BlackBerry Phones (of which bb10 is the ancestorial blueprint) which could down the road replace all that functionality? Of course this would require lots of automotive industry supplier and soc partnerships, and would not be BB alone's to do. New Business baby...new business.
    Last edited by i_plod_an_dr_void; 11-22-17 at 05:42 PM.
    11-22-17 05:29 PM
  12. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Ok so if they complied with the laws in Iran, it would be alright? Or the laws in North Korea? Cause they would be lawful access too.

    And what makes you think that BB gives access only when there’s a warrant? BB is like a black hole, they never ever publish any information on who they gave access user day to and when.

    Honestly, if I had something to hide, unless I am protected by BES and the key is safely on my server, I wouldn’t trust BB.

    But again I have nothing to hide so it’s not a factor, that’s why I used the Z30 for so long.
    I count my blessings that I wasn't born into either country. You raise a good question though. How culpable are global enterprises in human rights violations in countries that disregard basic human rights? Are the cell-tower installers equally guilty? Also there is the argument of what really constitutes basic human rights? Is the murder of an unborn human child a human-right (murder?)? So we don't always have to look overseas to these moral questions of the day. Are businesses at all responsible for these things?
    If I sell you a gun legally, but you use it to unlawfully kill, am I culpable? (most likely no, as long as I was not aware of your intentions). Or is this government and responsible citizenery's job? Its clear a business must comply reasonably with the laws of the land where it operates. Why do we trade with China? Which is a massive human-rights violator (and possibly copywrite/&patent violator),when it appears alternatives such as Mexico and South America would be much less so? Good questions, deeply human questions....but again not the point of this thread. Sometimes you don't know you have something to hide, until you find out you do (because of some obscure law you didn't read about, or silent redefinition of how the police are to decide how to implement a law on the books already).

    Of course when countries as a group impose trade sanctions on regions with terrible treatment of their citizenry, this does alleviate the culpability of corporations on these questions. Though it may harm the bottom line in the short term. But again not the central question of this thread......"let's talk about bb10"
    11-22-17 06:22 PM
  13. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Exactly! The only way BB can bring BB10 back is by bringing the company private, and “believers” like i_plod_an_dr_void should be the putting their money and investing in it!
    Time, talent or treasure are all valid forms of investiture.
    11-22-17 08:33 PM
  14. bobshine's Avatar
    Time, talent or treasure are all valid forms of investiture.
    Actually no! Cause I can guarantee you that actual shareholders of BB won’t sell you their shares in exchange of time! Or your talent
    stlabrat likes this.
    11-22-17 09:03 PM
  15. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    ahhh...you missed your chance ..you were supposed to say.....well in that case you are wasting your time, wasting your talent and wasting your treasure....oh well you missed your opportunity....as would BB if they don't get on this. Though to answer your response more directly ....recruited talent often get share options in addition to salary, if their contributions are deemed significant to the enterprise)
    11-22-17 09:39 PM
  16. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    11-22-17 10:02 PM
  17. butterbean1983's Avatar
    Why are you guys still debating this with him?
    11-23-17 04:06 PM
  18. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Why are you guys still debating this with him?
    Because we're almost to 500 comments..... Duh??
    Invictus0 likes this.
    11-23-17 07:17 PM
  19. butterbean1983's Avatar
    Because we're almost to 500 comments..... Duh??
    11-23-17 07:29 PM
  20. conite's Avatar
    11-23-17 08:42 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    11-23-17 08:42 PM
  22. conite's Avatar
    11-23-17 08:42 PM
  23. conite's Avatar
    11-23-17 08:42 PM
  24. conite's Avatar
    11-23-17 08:42 PM
  25. conite's Avatar
    Woo hoo! 500!

    Can it die now?
    11-23-17 08:42 PM
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