04-25-17 01:14 AM
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  1. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Not to derail the thread, but I am a long time super-fan of BB10 (and still use it), but I think the Priv is even better. But I digress, there are other threads to discuss that.

    I think full blown OS and device development costs closer to one or two billion dollars a year. BlackBerry stated that they needed to sell 10 million BB10 devices just to break even. This is based on a unit profit of maybe $100-$200. If you have a million users, upgrading every two years, you would need a profit of $2000-$4000 per phone (PLUS the cost of a limited run device too!!). I can't see that happening. Keep in mind - no further development on Android Runtime is possible, regardless of resources.

    Anything less (some minor app development, with a Runtime stuck at Jellybean) would be DOA.
    At least try to provide some reality to the costs. Take a look back at BlackBerry fiscal statements and try to get some real numbers.
    01-05-16 02:31 PM
  2. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    I don't know about the "proprietary business tools" you listed. But I did see a comment on here from a medical provider (I think a nurse) that she could not rely on BB to be reliable enough for ER work and she therefore went to an iPhone. Really? BB can't do better than iOS?

    If that is the case, I withdraw my suggestions.
    What problems did they have? I am doubtful on the statement.
    01-05-16 02:32 PM
  3. BBHermes's Avatar
    1) Google Services can't have anything to do with BB10 because of OHA regulations.

    2) The Android Runtime can't be further developed because of OHA regulations.
    Your continued conflation of speculation with fact has done considerable damage on these forums and needs to stop. At least have the sensibility to add a caveat, e.g. , "It may be the case that", "Some analysts have opined that."

    Your status as a senior contributor gives you more responsibility to be careful about what you say. The damage you and a few others have done on these forums, in making a situation of bad morale worse, is inexcusable.

    =============
    Joseph Welch to Senator Joseph McCarthy:

    "Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"


    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by BBHermes; 01-05-16 at 03:46 PM.
    DonHB likes this.
    01-05-16 03:23 PM
  4. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    At least try to provide some reality to the costs. Take a look back at BlackBerry fiscal statements and try to get some real numbers.
    Note sure what a fiscal statement is going to show.... especially spread out over the last 20 quarters.

    Whatever it was, they didn't get the return they needed. No one else has been interested in licensing BB10. Haven't heard of any of the BB10 developers being returned to BB10. Haven't heard of anything in the way of BB10 hardware. Haven't seen anything from BlackBerry to reassure app developers that the platform will continue - kinda told them the opposite. Haven't seen anything to reassure companies that BB10 is a platform for the future. Haven't seen any indication that the few people left working on BB10 are able to even put out a minor update... based on the latest update they sent out. BB10 is very soon going to be history.
    Killjoyhere likes this.
    01-05-16 03:27 PM
  5. conite's Avatar
    Your continued conflation of speculation with fact has done considerable damage on these forums and needs to stop. At least have the sensibility to add a caveat, e.g. , "It may be the case that", "Some analysts have opined that."

    Your status as a senior contributor gives you more responsibility to be careful about what you say. The damage you and a few others have done on these forums, in making a situation of bad morale worse, is inexcusable.

    Posted via CB10
    I admit I am not in the inner chamber of Google HQ, but I am very confident in my opinion on this, and find the circumstantial evidence overwhelming. But your point is taken.

    The fact that BlackBerry has explicitly stated that they are not developing the Runtime in 10.3.3 probably makes the point moot anyway.

    I'm not sure about the "morale" part. I am an outspoken BlackBerry enthusiast, love BB10, and applaud the mighty (superior for ME) Priv. I simply won't be part of the delusion that BB10 has an exciting future ahead in the mobile space.
    Last edited by conite; 01-05-16 at 04:53 PM.
    01-05-16 03:35 PM
  6. tufcustomer's Avatar
    From a PR stand point, I can see where this would be appreciated. On the other hand, much like we don't owe anything to BlackBerry they don't exactly owe anything to us. We got a product in return for our money, end transaction. Cars get discontinued all the time, manufacturers don't go out of their way to thank owners of those models.

    Posted via CB10
    anon(2313227) likes this.
    01-05-16 03:40 PM
  7. BBHermes's Avatar
    I admit I am not in the inner chamber of Google HQ, but I am very confident in my opinion on this, and find the circumstantial evidence overwhelming. But your point is taken.
    Thank you.

    I'm not sure about the "moral" part. I am an outspoken BlackBerry enthusiast, love BB10, and applaud the mighty (superior for ME) Priv. I simply won't be part of the delusion that BB10 has an exciting future ahead in the mobile space.
    I said 'morale', not 'moral'. In any case: Life is not a zero-sum game, but full of nuance. Bad news is a fact of life; adding negative speculation and rumor -- without caveats -- on top of bad news feeds the FUD and accelerates the downward spiral.

    There is a vast space between "dead, Dead, DEAD!" and "exciting future ahead in the mobile space." Let's not prejudge all the nuances of the outcome with too much speculation and rumor-mongering masquerading as fact. To do otherwise contributes to self-fulfilling prophecy. As the saying goes, a move of a butterfly can contribute to the development of a hurricane.
    01-05-16 04:49 PM
  8. conite's Avatar
    Thank you.



    I said 'morale', not 'moral'. In any case: Life is not a zero-sum game, but full of nuance. Bad news is a fact of life; adding negative speculation and rumor -- without caveats -- on top of bad news feeds the FUD and accelerates the downward spiral.

    There is a vast space between "dead, Dead, DEAD!" and "exciting future ahead in the mobile space." Let's not prejudge all the nuances of the outcome with too much speculation and rumor-mongering masquerading as fact. To do otherwise contributes to self-fulfilling prophecy. As the saying goes, a move of a butterfly can contribute to the development of a hurricane.
    Yes, typo.

    I still do not see any light at the end of the BB10 tunnel.

    When asked how long he needs to maintain BB10, Chen stated at Code/Mobile in October that: For the next year at least I need to".

    I'm not sure how else to interpret that. That is not rumour-mongering or speculation.

    Only one or two security/maintenance patches have been committed to, and there is no advancement of the Android Runtime in 10.3.3. We know much of the development team is no longer with BlackBerry, and that some (not all) of the development tools have gone EOL. These are all facts.

    None of this stops us from enjoying our devices for as long as we wish. I'm not depressed. I prefer to be realistically informed.
    Last edited by conite; 01-05-16 at 05:17 PM.
    diegonei likes this.
    01-05-16 05:03 PM
  9. dew066's Avatar
    It would be nice if BlackBerry would offer an upgrade to the Priv from older BlackBerry 10 devices as a loyalty program. If I could send them my Z30, which is in mint condition, for a 40% discount on a new Priv that would be great.

    Posted via CB10
    nglfmark likes this.
    01-05-16 05:28 PM
  10. anon(2313227)'s Avatar
    It would be nice if BlackBerry would offer an upgrade to the Priv from older BlackBerry 10 devices as a loyalty program. If I could send them my Z30, which is in mint condition, for a 40% discount on a new Priv that would be great.

    Posted via CB10
    Your Z30 is not even sold NEW in the box for 40% of the price of a Priv I don't think. Just saying. Pushing it at 25%.
    Elephant_Canyon likes this.
    01-05-16 05:43 PM
  11. cbvinh's Avatar
    It would be nice if BlackBerry would offer an upgrade to the Priv from older BlackBerry 10 devices as a loyalty program. If I could send them my Z30, which is in mint condition, for a 40% discount on a new Priv that would be great.
    You can get in line behind the PlayBook owners, who sacrificed for your BB10... You owe them a thank you.
    DrBoomBotz, lift, 1Criz and 2 others like this.
    01-05-16 06:10 PM
  12. BBHermes's Avatar
    When asked how long he needs to maintain BB10, Chen stated at Code/Mobile in October that: “For the next year at least I need to".
    Yes, but you left out some important context, e.g., "IF merging its security features with Android goes well." So if the Priv is a flop they will have to dust off and update BB10 to secure their end-to-end security position with corporate and government clients. Or abandon handsets altogether.

    The future is still up in the air; bleak but not finalized. I for one am not convinced that the Priv offers enough competitive advantage to *both* win over corporate/government clients as well as make any kind of dent in the already over-crowded Android market. Or perhaps when the compelling features of BB10 are merged with Android it will -- once again (sigh) -- be a day late and a dollar short. In any case, there is still room for interesting things to happen. This story is not over yet; we'll see what happens if/when the Priv flops.
    Killjoyhere likes this.
    01-05-16 06:26 PM
  13. ZeBB45's Avatar
    That's capitalism folks - once a company has your money, they leave you out to dry.

    Q10 - 10.3.2.2813/SR .2530  < α∂∂ιт > 
    01-05-16 06:43 PM
  14. anon(679606)'s Avatar
    It would be nice if BlackBerry would offer an upgrade to the Priv from older BlackBerry 10 devices as a loyalty program. If I could send them my Z30, which is in mint condition, for a 40% discount on a new Priv that would be great.

    Posted via CB10
    Get one from ATT for over 60% off...

    Posted via CB10
    01-05-16 06:55 PM
  15. Elephant_Canyon's Avatar
    It would be nice if BlackBerry would offer an upgrade to the Priv from older BlackBerry 10 devices as a loyalty program. If I could send them my Z30, which is in mint condition, for a 40% discount on a new Priv that would be great.
    Or you could just sell your Z30 and buy a Priv, because Blackberry doesn't owe you anything.
    01-05-16 07:14 PM
  16. GadgetTravel's Avatar
    Yes, but you left out some important context, e.g., "IF merging its security features with Android goes well." So if the Priv is a flop they will have to dust off and update BB10 to secure their end-to-end security position with corporate and government clients. Or abandon handsets altogether.

    The future is still up in the air; bleak but not finalized. I for one am not convinced that the Priv offers enough competitive advantage to *both* win over corporate/government clients as well as make any kind of dent in the already over-crowded Android market. Or perhaps when the compelling features of BB10 are merged with Android it will -- once again (sigh) -- be a day late and a dollar short. In any case, there is still room for interesting things to happen. This story is not over yet; we'll see what happens if/when the Priv flops.
    I think it is almost certain that if the Priv flops they will shut down the hardware division.
    01-05-16 07:53 PM
  17. kvndoom's Avatar
    It would be nice if BlackBerry would offer an upgrade to the Priv from older BlackBerry 10 devices as a loyalty program. If I could send them my Z30, which is in mint condition, for a 40% discount on a new Priv that would be great.

    Posted via CB10
    They said that about the playbook...

    BlackBerry Classic non-camera, Cricket Wireless
    Blacklatino and mode_m like this.
    01-05-16 08:14 PM
  18. anon(679606)'s Avatar
    I want value for the money I paid for the passport...not an apology !!
    elfabio80 likes this.
    01-05-16 08:17 PM
  19. GadgetTravel's Avatar
    I want value for the money I paid for the passport...not an apology !!
    I want someone to apologize to me for canceling "Hogan's Heroes".
    David Tyler likes this.
    01-05-16 08:37 PM
  20. Blacklatino's Avatar
    They said that about the playbook...

    BlackBerry Classic non-camera, Cricket Wireless
    Also, mentioned for Legacy devices.
    01-05-16 10:21 PM
  21. Superdupont 2_0's Avatar
    How would you like to be an IT guy that got your company to move to BES12 and BB10 devices last year.....


    I would take them at their word, two minor updates is all they have planned.
    Nah, I wouldn't have any problem being that IT guy.

    Android security was a total ****show until 2014.
    I agree that Google has implemented a lots of (basic but necessary) improvements over the last 5 years, and actually I started to "feel" Android is becoming secure enough... but in 2015 there were so many bad apps/exploits in Play Store and we learned the mediaserver is so unbelievable supervulnerable, I feel tempted to compare Android with Adobe Flash.

    iOS however comes with "good enough"-security, but it's more expensive and in some ways less open and limited (although it has great apps).


    imho IT guys can continue to use BB10 over the next 2-4 years.
    Heck, there are still companies using BBOS these days, and BBOS isn't really further developed anymore for three years, right?
    Aren't people like Eric Schmidt or David Cameron still using a regular legacy BBOS device (Bold)?

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by Superdupont 2_0; 01-06-16 at 05:42 AM.
    01-05-16 11:02 PM
  22. hkkelvinlee's Avatar
    How would you like to be an IT guy that got your company to move to BES12 and BB10 devices last year.....


    I would take them at their word, two minor updates is all they have planned.
    Ironically perhaps but I think such IT guy is probably alright as corporate phones hardly get OS update even if released. As long as the phones work as advertised and in-house apps work too, I reckon all things are fine in short to medium terms.

    Posted via CB10
    01-05-16 11:04 PM
  23. crucial bbq's Avatar
    I don't think BlackBerry owes us anything outside of a clear roadmap towards the future; even if it does not include BB10. Then again, BB10 is not that old and many of us assumed BlackBerry would kill hardware outright long before they switched to Android. At least with MS their rather quick transitions through W6, W7, W8, and now W10 phones was all with their own homegrown OS. I mean, Android may be in the same solar system but it is definitely on a different planet.

    Well, since the Priv is only on one carrier in the US, right now, announcing the end of BB10 would be like saying "If you aren't on AT&T then don't buy a BlackBerry." I don't think anyone would expect them to do that. To be fair, John Chen has heavily implied that his future hardware strategy is based on Android. There should be some insiders that can give us a BB10 platform development head count which would be revealing. The only people who don't realize what is happening are people who choose not to do so.
    Logically, when you make one implication you are also implying at least one other "something else". For example; "...future hardware strategy is based on Android." may imply that BB10 will ride on Android's coat tails. Is too far fetched to believe that based on the success of Android powered BlackBerries it may be possible to subsidize the "BB10 project"? It very well could not but my point is that until Chen says, "...our future hardware strategy will focus only on Android..." any and all flip-sides remain on the the table.

    As for the insiders, don't hold your breath. "BB10" for what ever reason causes people to become ghosts.

    Not to derail the thread, but I am a long time super-fan of BB10 (and still use it), but I think the Priv is even better. But I digress, there are other threads to discuss that.
    Not to flame you but honestly you come across as an Android diehard who owned a BB handset years ago. The only time you even seem to remotely enthusiastic about BB10 is when a new leak comes out.

    Yes, typo.

    I still do not see any light at the end of the BB10 tunnel.

    When asked how long he needs to maintain BB10, Chen stated at Code/Mobile in October that: “For the next year at least I need to".

    I'm not sure how else to interpret that. That is not rumour-mongering or speculation.

    Only one or two security/maintenance patches have been committed to, and there is no advancement of the Android Runtime in 10.3.3. We know much of the development team is no longer with BlackBerry, and that some (not all) of the development tools have gone EOL. These are all facts.

    None of this stops us from enjoying our devices for as long as we wish. I'm not depressed. I prefer to be realistically informed.
    The Android Developer Toolkit became officially EOLd like what, two weeks ago? BlackBerry is replacing it with the official Android Studio. BlackBerry is also encouraging Android devs to port apps to the BlackBerry runtime as applicable. If the app, for whatever reason, will run better under the Android run time then they are encouraged to use that. So perhaps there will be no need to upgrade ART if ported apps from Android only require an ART but not specifically v6.0? And if the app is not going to rely on G Services or maybe even Material Design, then why would it need anything higher than Kit Kat? Of course this is only for ported apps and not apps from Amazon or Snap or Play but the fact remains: why are they still talking about developing for BB10, let alone porting Android apps, if the platform is EOL? To give some illusion just to sell the remaining stock of BB10s?

    As for the SDK; if they are not moving to 10.4 anytime soon, or even ever, there is no need for a new SDK. If anything, it seems as if BlackBerry is making it easier to develop for BB10, not harder.
    01-05-16 11:20 PM
  24. Jiggy1971's Avatar
    You folks are full of yourselves. BlackBerry has to run their business and make money. Stop acting like it's all about you. Whaaa Whaaa Whaaa.

    Posted from Jiggy's Priv. . .
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    01-05-16 11:28 PM
  25. conite's Avatar

    Not to flame you but honestly you come across as an Android diehard who owned a BB handset years ago. The only time you even seem to remotely enthusiastic about BB10 is when a new leak comes out.
    I'll give you the courtesy of assuming you are joking.

    BlackBerry has been my primary device since the 7100i in 2006. I've used and owned almost every device since. I only finally switched away my primary device from the Passport SE in November when I bought the Priv, although I still manage and use a number of BB10 devices on a daily basis.

    Lately, I have been extolling the virtues of, and defending, the Priv, because I think it's an incredible device - my favourite BlackBerry device to date.

    I also think BlackBerry has done the only logical move by putting BB10 out to pasture after losing billions of dollars on it, and I have been defending BlackBerry in that regard as well.

    I received some negative comments 3 years ago too when I saw the end of the BBOS business model, and embraced BB10. I thought they were late out of the gate and had a big mountain to climb, but I loved the OS.
    Last edited by conite; 01-06-16 at 12:33 AM.
    pkcable and KemKev like this.
    01-06-16 12:06 AM
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