03-08-16 10:29 PM
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  1. danifulger's Avatar
    I assume you realize Facebook has a good size team working on React? Look at the commit log and count how many commits come from within Facebook.
    yes. Are they entirely from Facebook as some of us expect it to, from Blackberry ? No...
    03-05-16 04:21 PM
  2. danifulger's Avatar
    I want to be able to create, at runtime, arbitrary blocks of code, have them capture some state and scheduled on queues. The trick is i want this totally integrated with all the rest of the frameworks I'm working with such that this actually works well in practice. I.e. here's a block/lambda/whatever can I can hand to someone else's framework and have that framework schedule that block on a queue of my choosing at the appropriate time. When this in integrated through the whole OS (not just the kernel!) you end up being able to build truly evented processing with a very low thread count.

    What you don't have to do, and this is key, is spin up and manage threads. Threads are too expensive on phones, and you can't know how to manage that expense because you can't know what threads other apps and processes are using. The OS, however, does and so I'd rather have the OS manage that for me.

    Neutrino itself, deep in the bowels of BB10, is capable of this, and even capable of doing this in user space. But it's not nearly as useful there with those primitive APIs as it is in iOS and WP10 where that is woven all the way up through the stack, and neatly supported in the language(s) themselves. In short, one thing BB10 would have needed, if it hadn't already died, was something like Apple's GCD integrated into all of the BB10 frameworks that a developer uses and with language level support. (This would also lead to changes in BB10 process model since some of this efficiency is less useful if your app has to be running all of the time)

    I hear Microsoft has made some good progress on this in WP10, but I've not used that yet myself.

    Again, this is absurd to spend time talking about a dead OS. The premise of this thread is that BB10 didn't die, but that BlackBerry actually dropped the mic. The assertion is that BB10 is feature complete and that it is why it is in maintenance mode.

    I'm saying that is an absolutely absurd assertion for *any* operating system. The industry moves quickly, there is always, always, something new to add unless you don't see a future in the OS and you've moved on. BlackBerry has moved on.
    is it me or you just described function calling in a monolithic kernel?
    skstrials likes this.
    03-05-16 04:31 PM
  3. app_Developer's Avatar
    is it me or you just described function calling in a monolithic kernel?
    That's not even close to what I just described. In fact, Apple's implementation of everything I just described has minimal kernel dependencies. As it should be.

    Again, this is 2016, not 1995.
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-05-16 04:34 PM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    yes. Are they entirely from Facebook as some of us expect it to, from Blackberry ? No...
    Let's go back to why you brought up React. You were suggesting that BB doesn't need to build new capabilities into BB10 because the OSS community could do it for them.

    I'm saying BB could leverage the community, but they first have to have their own teams working on these things and guiding them. Most successful open projects (including the very one you pointed at) has 1 or more companies who have dedicated teams paid to work on it. Sometimes very, very large teams.

    You don't just fire most of your developers and then expect the community to pick up the slack. Especially if you have no real community of any size.
    03-05-16 04:40 PM
  5. danifulger's Avatar
    Let's go back to why you brought up React. You were suggesting that BB doesn't need to build new capabilities into BB10 because the OSS community could do it for them.

    I'm saying BB could leverage the community, but they first have to have their own teams working on these things and guiding them. Most successful open projects (including the very one you pointed at) has 1 or more companies who have dedicated teams paid to work on it. Sometimes very, very large teams.

    You don't just fire most of your developers and then expect the community to pick up the slack. Especially if you have no real community of any size.
    I brought it up because this, they say, it might be the next best thing since sliced bread...in java world...

    What if Blackberry outsourced the workforce to...let's say...NCR https://www.linkedin.com/company/ncr-corporation
    03-05-16 05:09 PM
  6. danifulger's Avatar
    That's not even close to what I just described. In fact, Apple's implementation of everything I just described has minimal kernel dependencies. As it should be.

    Again, this is 2016, not 1995.
    Ios is a hybrid kernel..so minimal kernel dependencies...expected. problem? it relies on a poorly programmed microkernel...mach. head to head with qnx would loose.
    skstrials likes this.
    03-05-16 05:13 PM
  7. app_Developer's Avatar
    I brought it up because this, they say, it might be the next best thing since sliced bread...in java world...

    What if Blackberry outsourced the workforce to...let's say...NCR https://www.linkedin.com/company/ncr-corporation
    Whether they outsource the work, or do it themselves, you're still talking about significant investment in BB10. They are done with BB10.

    They are riding a sales chart for BB10 devices that is going down every quarter. They can't afford to have it drop off even faster like a cliff, and they can't afford mass returns from the channels right now, so they say what they need to say to maintain ambiguity and spend a tiny bit on two small updates. That's it. That's all they will do.

    Chen has no intention of throwing more millions on top of the billions they've already burned on this OS. I wouldn't either, so I can't blame him for that.
    03-05-16 05:18 PM
  8. app_Developer's Avatar
    Ios is a hybrid kernel..so minimal kernel dependencies...expected. problem? it relies on a poorly programmed microkernel...mach. head to head with qnx would loose.
    Again, nothing I described has much to do with the kernel at all. These are not things you need to or want to handle in the kernel, regardless of how your kernel is organized at runtime. You seem to be talking about something totally different from what I was talking about.

    The issue I'm talking about is almost entirely things BB would have to develop above the kernel if BB10 were to continue (which of course isn't, making this entire conversation somewhat impractical!)
    Last edited by app_Developer; 03-05-16 at 05:35 PM.
    03-05-16 05:21 PM
  9. danifulger's Avatar
    Whether they outsource the work, or do it themselves, you're still talking about significant investment in BB10. thought that's what the point of outsourcing is...to minimize the cost and keep a decent level of development? i might be wrong..
    maintain ambiguity and spend a tiny bit on two small updates.
    so the upcoming certifications are small updates? or something that's already in place that will get certified?

    Chen has no intention of throwing more millions on top of the billions they've already burned on this OS. I wouldn't either, so I can't blame him for that. that's quite a statement..could you please tell me if do you have any resource for the billions they spent on BB10?
    03-05-16 05:31 PM
  10. danifulger's Avatar
    Again, nothing I described has much to do with the kernel at all. These are not things you need to or want to handle in the kernel,
    not in the kernel but by the kernel. anyway for some reason i kept thinking about the kernel thing.
    Attached Thumbnails My view on BlackBerry 10 and its Maintenance mode...-800px-os-structure2.svg.png  
    skstrials and sid89 like this.
    03-05-16 05:42 PM
  11. Dirtymike14's Avatar
    Thank you. Could you tell which Blackberry 10 features do you believe that are missing to put it in the Stable development "GO fast" high pressure, deliver fast, buggy software mode instead of the Maintenance "move slow, built things", achieve military grade certifications, Integrity like, QNX competitor, EAL6 ratings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integr...rating_system) ?
    It's not features that are missing, it's apps

    Posted via CB10
    danifulger likes this.
    03-05-16 06:18 PM
  12. xtremeled's Avatar
    Please excuse my English as am not sure if I can translate this well in the English language.
    Lately there is a wave of users who, for some reason, believe that because in the maintenance mode, it is the end of Blackberry10 Operating system. Not sure if those are just paid by Google or by Blackberrys competitors Crackberry forum users who are flooding these threads but in the programming world the maintenance mode is the best mode to be in, for software development, and Blackberry 10 is in its best stage at the moment.
    While it is true that there is a significant lack of quality Blackberry10 native software in the Blackberry World it doesn't mean that from a "developing a mobile operating system perspective" (and not a software or applications development one), the operating system is dead. It just means that, from Blackberrys perspective, the main development for the operating system is mainly done and it is up to the software developers or the community, more or less, to develop software applications for the operating system. As we could see in the slide no.# 87 out of 104 there are three stages for software development or mobile operating system development in this case: stage one is Exploration, stage two is Stable Development. Stage three is Maintenance Mode in which Blackberry10 is in it at the moment and the best one to be in (slide no. #92 of 104) Erlang, LFE, Joxa and Elixir: Established and Emerging Languages in t?
    From Blackberry's point of view, as of 2016, with the upcoming security certifications, they delivered a top of the line, secure and stable mobile Operating System to the world. It is good understanded that they did have their mistakes and it is hard for me to understand why did they chose to have a built in application development framework (the QT) which now needs updated as well and is causing code collision, maybe them hoping to speed up the application development process, instead of letting the developers or programmers choose the framework to built their application with as so it is hard to understand why did they chose C as a programming language for their software development when considering the features QNX has, Erlang seemed a better option, but this is for another thread and another discussion.
    What's your view on the Blackberry 10's maintenance mode ?
    Oh My GOD!!!!! Stop already. Slap any label you want on what BB10 is or isnt. .02 percent of the market. It's dead! You just dont want to admit it. Nothing new on its way and developers either not building or no longer supporting it.
    Uzi, JeepBB and Witmen like this.
    03-05-16 07:10 PM
  13. Jakob Greve's Avatar
    Why does it even matter bb10 works perfectly fine for me and by 2017 I'll want a new phone anyway.
    Uzi likes this.
    03-05-16 07:43 PM
  14. app_Developer's Avatar
    not in the kernel but by the kernel. anyway for some reason i kept thinking about the kernel thing.
    The small part of this which is managed in the kernel already exists in every kernel on earth (NT, Linux, Mach, Neutrino, even Hurd if that thing ever did ship). What I was asking for is all the stuff that you need over that (in the frameworks, in the runtime, and in the programming language itself) to bring task mgmt (small 't' task, not process mgmt) at least in line with what we have on the other platforms.

    BTW, as an adherent to the microkernel religion, I would think you would agree that most things should be done outside kernel space. Apple implemented most of the feature I"m talking about outside of the kernel as well. In most practical usage, this all happens inside the app process with no context switch at all.

    In a different thread, someone can explain to me how Linux (a "monolithic" kernel) is at a practical (real) disadvantage compared to Mach or Neutrino in a phone. I think Dan Dodge has left BlackBerry by now, hasn't he? I would hope that would end the myth that an RTOS or a microkernel (either) have some advantage in a modern smartphone. In fact the RTOS bit is a significant disadvantage. Again, this is 2016 not 1995.

    I think Neutrino is a wonderful kernel for the applications for which it was designed. It's very good work, but it's not the uber kernel for all applications. If QNX had been in Japan or something, BlackBerry would never have even looked at QNX as the foundation of their new OS. They would have saved quite some time and had a better product IMO and a better chance to succeed if they hadn't.

    Again, this has nothing to do with the premise of this thread, which is that BB10 is so perfect that is requires nothing more than maintenance. It apparently doesn't even require support for new chipsets?
    danifulger likes this.
    03-05-16 07:57 PM
  15. RyanGermann's Avatar
    BB10 survives AND advances predicated on two things:

    The Android experiment is deemed a failure and;
    the board decides that the devices division is too important to close down, even if it is not profitable (I.e. BlackBerry enterprise software won't succeed in the market without the end-to-end coverage devices provide)

    The BB10 web browser is really showing its age, and the WebKit engine on which it is based is being phased out. If the OS doesn't get additional and significant development, it will NOT continue to function as it does today, because the world to which BB10 connects and upon which it relies is moving forward while BB10 stands still... Eventually the world is so far ahead of BB10 that there is too much distance to hear and be heard.

    So, no, BB10 without significant investment will NOT continue to work as it does today.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 03-06-16 at 09:27 AM.
    schwede and JeepBB like this.
    03-06-16 09:17 AM
  16. oldtimeBBaddict's Avatar
    I bet somebody is googling frantically right now.
    Yeah, I plead guilty
    03-06-16 08:00 PM
  17. DonHB's Avatar
    BB10 survives AND advances predicated on two things:

    The Android experiment is deemed a failure and; the board decides that the devices division is too important to close down, even if it is not profitable (I.e. BlackBerry enterprise software won't succeed in the market without the end-to-end coverage devices provide)
    I would suggest a different, almost opposite scenario:

    Android devices have close to or exceed the required sales to continue selling handsets. Android hardware with some, perhaps optional, cosmetic changes can be used for BB10 devices. It is determined that the additional R&D required to support BB10 on the Android targeted hardware would not have a substantial hit on handset profitability--existing numbers or moderate increase in sales due to new hardware availability will be sufficient to support software R&D and hardware testing. It may even be the case that some combination of hardware sales of Android and BB10 would be sufficient.
    Last edited by DonHB; 03-07-16 at 12:35 AM.
    danifulger likes this.
    03-07-16 12:24 AM
  18. blueberrymerry's Avatar
    If you really want to know what "maintenance mode" means to an OS, particularly a mobile platform, just look at what happened to Symbian. In 2011, Nokia promised updates to 2016 - in reality, platform updates stopped at the end of 2012, the app store disappeared in 2015, and by 2016 there were no users or developers left for Symbian.

    I was a diehard fool for continuing to use and develop for Symbian until 2014 but then I saw how futile it was. The same thing will happen to BlackBerry, maybe at a faster pace because cheaper and more capable Android devices pop up every other minute.
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-07-16 02:08 AM
  19. sid89's Avatar
    I agree and respect OP views and he is spot on!

    Posted via CB10
    03-07-16 04:12 AM
  20. kvndoom's Avatar
    Please excuse my English as am not sure if I can translate this well in the English language.
    Lately there is a wave of users who, for some reason, believe that because in the maintenance mode, it is the end of Blackberry10 Operating system. Not sure if those are just paid by Google or by Blackberrys competitors Crackberry forum users who are flooding these threads
    Why does everything have to be a damn conspiracy? Some people can simply read between the lines, ya know?

    I'm on my 5th BlackBerry phone, soon going to be buying my 6th, and I have no doubts that there will never be another BB10 phone or any major software update besides what BlackBerry itself promised. And this post was NOT paid for by Apple, Google, or Microsoft.


    BlackBerry Classic non-camera, Cricket Wireless
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-07-16 06:57 AM
  21. yuvaraki's Avatar
    I'm not sure if this post is completely out-of-place but let me post it anyway. If not now, in future, if BB is in a stable position and can afford to resurrect/re-focus on BB10, does it stand a chance with enough money in the bank? Or do we just have to lose any hopes of ever seeing this OS picking-up again? If we have to forget it, it's such a shame for how cool the UI is!
    03-07-16 11:39 AM
  22. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    I'm not sure if this post is completely out-of-place but let me post it anyway. If not now, in future, if BB is in a stable position and can afford to resurrect/re-focus on BB10, does it stand a chance with enough money in the bank? Or do we just have to lose any hopes of ever seeing this OS picking-up again? If we have to forget it, it's such a shame for how cool the UI is!
    It's unlikely BlackBerry would resurrect a failed product but not impossible. Close to a miracle though.
    yuvaraki likes this.
    03-07-16 12:00 PM
  23. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Android devices have close to or exceed the required sales to continue selling handsets.
    Unfortunately, at this point, all signs point to "no". The Priv wasn't an out-of-the-ballpark hit in that even though the consumer may be slow to consider a BB Android device or a Slider with keyboard form factor, there hasn't been a whole lot of high-profile "This is an EXCELLENT phone worthy of consideration!" skuttlebut. That comes for the LG G5 and even HTC handsets, but the attitude among consumers worldwide seems to be "Don't even bother with a handset that's not a Samsung (for Android) or an iPhone." And the sales figures reflect that... and if that doesn't change then BlackBerry's unique form factors won't really matter much, because there's this dire "we'll exit the handset business if we can't make a go of it." possibility that scares people off of buying handsets... and so the downward spiral continues.

    At least with BB10 devices, if a handset buyer wanted that OS, they didn't have much choice. Can the decline of BB10 be 'blamed' on BB10 itself, or the way the company managed it? I think the latter, because even with the highly-publicized app gap and no compelling new hardware, BB10 devices were selling millions of units a year! If BlackBerry put out a investor-hostile but customer-friendly message of "We will continue to make handsets even if they were unprofitable, because they're a key part of our strategy." then, ironically, the handset division might have been more profitable. THIS is why the BlackBerry Ltd. Board of Directors an C-level executive team BOTCHED THE JOB. They were more concerned about the share price than running a company properly. Oddly, if you run the company properly the share price often rises, but making reputation-killing statements that amount to "you better not buy our products, because we have a track record of kicking products to the curb and leaving them in a half-baked state, and I'm actually going to TELL YOU without mincing words that is what just might happen if you don't buy our products... but don't buy them."

    Android hardware with some, perhaps optional, cosmetic changes can be used for BB10 devices.
    I believe this to be a good idea, so why hasn't BlackBerry put out the slider with BB10 already?

    Because apparently the cost of developing "BB10 chipset drivers" for the Qualcomm chips used in the Slider would be greater than the GDP of China. So, BlackBerry can't afford that, or they might have already done it. Well, that's the conjecture bandied about here on CrackBerry, but no one can even ESTIMATE a number that would be prohibitive. The real story seems to have come out in the early 2016 C|Net interviews with BB execs: Ron Louks came on board INTENT to kill BB10 and switch BB over to Android.

    So, while reasonable people think that putting BB10 on the Slider hardware would make sense, BlackBerry has shown not only resistance to do it, but have made statements and taken steps (i.e. firing most of the BB10 developers) to make the market (customers, developers, etc.) turn away from BB10. Call it strategy, call it sabotage, call it "corporate suicide", it all amounts to the same thing.

    It is determined that the additional R&D required to support BB10 on the Android targeted hardware would not have a substantial hit on handset profitability--existing numbers or moderate increase in sales due to new hardware availability will be sufficient to support software R&D and hardware testing. It may even be the case that some combination of hardware sales of Android and BB10 would be sufficient.
    Again, I hoped that would be the case: one hardware platform, choice of two OSes: but BlackBerry hasn't gone that route, and at this stage, even if they DO, when they've laid off most of the BB10 development team and the high profile departure of WhatsApp just seals the deal in effect: imagine it's 2013 and BlackBerry is working their butts off to get high-profile apps onto the BB10 platform, like Skype and Netflix and Instagram etc... and they fail time and time again (except Skype which, as an Android port, performed so poorly on BB10 as to be hardly usable) and now they're supposed to try to defibrillate BB10?

    The BB Board of Directors / key investors / management going this route would be yet another reminder of a Simpson's clip:



    Where every BlackBerry fan is Selma, lamenting our fate, while we watch this comic tragedy unfold.
    03-07-16 12:38 PM
  24. danifulger's Avatar
    done.
    Mainly done means done?
    03-07-16 01:09 PM
  25. danifulger's Avatar
    The assertion is that BB10 is feature complete
    again, not sure, could you tell where does this feature complete idea comes from?
    Last edited by danifulger; 03-07-16 at 01:45 PM.
    03-07-16 01:14 PM
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