[cbvinh]

What I fail to understand - is - If someone is not happy with their Z10, Q10, Q5 or Z30 - or BB10 - why don't they just find another one? Why having to blast all over the place of how unhappy they are.... It's not like you getting married - it's a tool - it's a phone - it's a device... get over it...

In markets like the U.S., where the phone is subsidized in the contract, people are "married" to their phone for regularly two years. The phone isn't necessarily free with the contract either. The user pays $0-$299 *plus* tax on the unsubsidized price. Switching phones either means buying a new one outright or paying an early termination fee (upwards of $350) to own the BB10 phone, selling it, and getting the new phone subsidized.

[mset]

How many times has my Blackberry Z10 crashed in 2 months? ZERO.....

Can you please just stop it? There were 300 threads devoted to Z10 crashes and reboots in the summer.

Geez, when is this absurdity from the Kool-Aid drinkers going to end? It's pathetic.

[Blackberry_boffin]

Get ready to get attacked?.... strange how none of my Android friends ever tell me how they have been attacked.


There is no doubt that BB10 has failed. Of course I think BB10 is the best mobile OS out there right now (haven't used WP8). But it is immature and needs about another year to get to where it needs to be. But the problem is people aren't concerned with the OS, they want a Platform. And THAT is where BlackBerry really failed, thus making BB10 irelevent.

Exactly, a platform/ecosystem is what people care about.
And then some specs that cannot be knocked easily.
And then a 'cool' factor.
I was utterly disappointed by the price points of the Q10 and Z10 at launch. Those were never designed to grow a platform starting from ZERO users and NIL mind share of a V1.0 OS.
I think the hardware and OS is/was great but it was naive to go toe to toe in price with the mature platforms from the onset.
And then we hear a billion's worth of Z10s have be written down and a new flagship all touch is in town so where is the "get these into users hands" discount? A discount is actually not so bad as it grows the ecosystem and attracts more devs? The other problem BB10 still faces; developer indifference..

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Exactly, a platform/ecosystem is what people care about.
And then some specs that cannot be knocked easily.
And then a 'cool' factor.
I was utterly disappointed by the price points of the Q10 and Z10 at launch. Those were never designed to grow a platform starting from ZERO users and NIL mind share of a V1.0 OS.
I think the hardware and OS is/was great but it was naive to go toe to toe in price with the mature platforms from the onset.
And then we hear a billion's worth of Z10s have be written down and a new flagship all touch is in town so where is the "get these into users hands" discount? A discount is actually not so bad as it grows the ecosystem and attracts more devs? The other problem BB10 still faces; developer indifference..

It is really hard to understand how BlackBerry just ignored the results of the PlayBook Launch (total failure - it didn't do what people wanted and was WAY overpriced), and the Launch of the new Windows Phone using medium grade hardware and heavily subsidising them (also had no ecosystem, and still had a hard time gaining traction until this year). They REALLY taught that BB10 was good enough, that the Z10's hardware was good enough and that the ecosystem they had built was good enough, and that the price they choose to launch the Z10 with was also good enough, and that their whole launch plan was good enough.

That is what is most worrisome... not the shortcomings, the fact that they didn't see them until it was too late (not really sure they see them even now).

[Richard Buckley]

I'm curious if you think the capability of side loading apps and whatever is coming with 10.2 is going to discourage developers to provide native apps?

Posted via CB10

It isn't going to discourage me. I loathe writing for Android. BB10 is a joy to develop for. If BlackBerry can make it through all the premature reports of its death, more and more people will be drawn to the platform simply because it is much easier to get things done. The native application development situation will get better. Having more applications available will, if nothing else quite the nay sayers for a while.

Posted via CB10

[Saiga]

Flawed logic. By that line of deduction you could say bbOS was a failure just because it's no longer popular.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

Whatcha talking about? BlackBerry OS devices are still outselling BlackBerry 10 devices quarter after quarter after quarter. BBOS may not be as popular as it once was, but it is still more popular than BlackBerry 10 is. Isn't that fact alone enough reason to consider BlackBerry 10 a failure?

[Whyareallthegoodnamestaken]

Whatcha talking about? BlackBerry OS devices are still outselling BlackBerry 10 devices quarter after quarter after quarter. BBOS may not be as popular as it once was, but it is still more popular than BlackBerry 10 is. Isn't that fact alone enough reason to consider BlackBerry 10 a failure?

No

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[Saiga]

Geez, when is this absurdity from the Kool-Aid drinkers going to end? It's pathetic.

Ya know, the 35th anniversary of the Jonestown tragedy was yesterday and thinking about it made me realize that it is really insensitive to use the term Kool-Aid drinker.

I agree with what you're saying, just thinking we maybe should stop using that term in a jokingly fashion.

[syukur]

Yea!..that is what i think also and make a desicion to buy Blackberry Q5, it's my first BB phone. Before this it never come cross to my mind that i would buy and be a BB phone user. But after seeing about the new BB OS 10 and with the coming out of Q10 and Q5 also Z10, the innovative phones so far from BB it makes me think back about it and finally I've braved myself to buy it and i never regret. Q10 & Q5 THE UNIQUE QWERTY PHONES WITH INNOVATIVE BB OS10.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Ya know, the 35th anniversary of the Jonestown tragedy was yesterday and thinking about it made me realize that it is really insensitive to use the term Kool-Aid drinker.

I agree with what you're saying, just thinking we maybe should stop using that term in a jokingly fashion.

-

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is a metaphor commonly used in the United States that refers to a person or group holding an unquestioned belief, argument, or philosophy without critical examination. It could also refer to knowingly going along with a doomed or dangerous idea because of peer pressure

Jonestown was a man made tragedy... Maybe making what happened there the "****" of a joke will keep the memory of what those people allowed to happen alive and maybe cause someone to stop and think about what they are doing so it doesn't happen again.

Drinking the Kool-Aid is a part of pop culture today.... just as being overly "politically correct" is.

[Unbiased Tech]

Is it really that bad here @ CrackBerry?

If you have even the slightest negative thing to say about BlackBerry or if you have a problem with your phone that "we don't have" then yes absolutely. If you are realistic and thorough with your posts you will get a mix of hate and love. If you hold a cult-like affection to an inanimate object and a billion dollar tech company then you will have a peaceful time. Thus the guide to CB forums.

[waterfrontmgmt]

Well said.

It isn't going to discourage me. I loathe writing for Android. BB10 is a joy to develop for. If BlackBerry can make it through all the premature reports of its death, more and more people will be drawn to the platform simply because it is much easier to get things done. The native application development situation will get better. Having more applications available will, if nothing else quite the nay sayers for a while.

Posted via CB10

Posted via CB10

[Davidro1]

Not everyone has a "smartphone."

Some people are buying their first smartphone ever. I'm one. My previous phone was so bad, I didn't use it for much. I waited a long time before moving up to a better phone. Years.

I know hyperconnected people who use computers instead of their phone. They resist getting a so-called smartphone. I was one of them, too. Now I have a z10.

Now, my computers and their chairs get less face.time. I can move around more.

I can take care of last-minute stuff WAY better than ever. I can contact more people in less time, too. I see there are other benefits too.

My z10 was subsidized to the tune of $15/month so now I would have to pay an amount equal to its probable resale value, to remove it from my monthly carrier bill, and replace it with another phone like the z30. Buying the z30 at $600 sounds like a steal. But then unlocking the z10 and the z30, and paying the buyout cost of the subsidized z10, and adding in local taxes, all told it'll cost me more than $1100. Add a case or holster and it is certainly more than $1100.

So, where is my schmoozing BlackBerry rep giving me an incentive to move up to the z30 and to toss my Z10 to some new loving home? Not present. Inexistant. Absent. Missing.

At home I have iPad, ipod, appletv, imac, macmini server and more all from Apple. No iPhone. Never wanted an iPhone.

I haven't seen more than a handful of new to the market smartphone owners in CB discussion threads.

I know many people who don't use ANY of the features of their smartphone. Some don't even know how to get an app. These are executives and white-collar specialists highly educated and earning big salaries. So, 2014 and 2015 are full of potential, for whichever company that can figure out how to use these relatively new smartphone owners, to their mutual profit and benefit.

I did hate the obvious inadequacies of the z10 when I got it in February. I returned it and expressed my frustration a lot. Repeat this, once more in March: I got a z10 from another carrier and returned it after another trial and complaint process. Then, I did it almost all over again, late March. I got My Third z10 and complained a lot. I kept it. It's the device I used to type this post. I never go to CB web site on my imac because it's laggy.

[jh07]

If you have even the slightest negative thing to say about BlackBerry or if you have a problem with your phone that "we don't have" then yes absolutely. If you are realistic and thorough with your posts you will get a mix of hate and love. If you hold a cult-like affection to an inanimate object and a billion dollar tech company then you will have a peaceful time. Thus the guide to CB forums.

Definitely cult like. This use to be a hell of a lot different site. Should change the name.

Hotel Crackberry?
Cultberry?
My head is stuck in Kevin's assberry?


Posted via CB10

[Davidro1]

Definitely cult like. This use to be a hell of a lot different site. Should change the name.

Hotel Crackberry?
Cultberry?
My head is stuck in Kevin's assberry?

I agree. When I began posting about complaints problems and misunderstandings, earlier this year, I got treated like scat, for a long long time. Where are the "gentilles organisateurs" that you see in every Club Med resort ? Where are the community organizers ? Why didn't CB start charging BlackBerry for doing their customer service work ? I am certain that one of BlackBerry's major competitors would have been manipulating all this from behind the scenes...

[jh07]

Not everyone has a "smartphone."

Some people are buying their first smartphone ever. I'm one. My previous phone was so bad, I didn't use it for much. I waited a long time before moving up to a better phone. Years.

I know hyperconnected people who use computers instead of their phone. They resist getting a so-called smartphone. I was one of them, too. Now I have a z10.

Now, my computers and their chairs get less face.time. I can move around more.

I can take care of last-minute stuff WAY better than ever. I can contact more people in less time, too. I see there are other benefits too.

My z10 was subsidized to the tune of $15/month so now I would have to pay an amount equal to its probable resale value, to remove it from my monthly carrier bill, and replace it with another phone like the z30. Buying the z30 at $600 sounds like a steal. But then unlocking the z10 and the z30, and paying the buyout cost of the subsidized z10, and adding in local taxes, all told it'll cost me more than $1100. Add a case or holster and it is certainly more than $1100.

So, where is my schmoozing BlackBerry rep giving me an incentive to move up to the z30 and to toss my Z10 to some new loving home? Not present. Inexistant. Absent. Missing.

At home I have iPad, ipod, appletv, imac, macmini server and more all from Apple. No iPhone. Never wanted an iPhone.

I haven't seen more than a handful of new to the market smartphone owners in CB discussion threads.

I know many people who don't use ANY of the features of their smartphone. Some don't even know how to get an app. These are executives and white-collar specialists highly educated and earning big salaries. So, 2014 and 2015 are full of potential, for whichever company that can figure out how to use these relatively new smartphone owners, to their mutual profit and benefit.

I did hate the obvious inadequacies of the z10 when I got it in February. I returned it and expressed my frustration a lot. Repeat this, once more in March: I got a z10 from another carrier and returned it after another trial and complaint process. Then, I did it almost all over again, late March. I got My Third z10 and complained a lot. I kept it. It's the device I used to type this post. I never go to CB web site on my imac because it's laggy.

Your comment reminded me on an article about Jerry Jones, owner of the Dallas Cowboys. That guy who is worth millions uses some old time flip phone. The smartphone is definitely a great thing to have if you have to check something online quick and of course emailing. Then I have to think how much time I've wasted surfing the internet and looking at nonsense.

Posted via CB10

[m1kr0]

Definitely cult like. This use to be a hell of a lot different site. Should change the name.

Hotel Crackberry?
Cultberry?
My head is stuck in Kevin's assberry?


Posted via CB10

Very interesting angle you have. I don't think it will make you a lot of friends in here.

[jh07]

Very interesting angle you have. I don't think it will make you a lot of friends in here.

Yeah your right, I probably just picked up more infraction points also. I hope your not implying I'll never be put on the "what CB member to have a beer with list" ? Cause that was a very informative thread. Matter of fact I think I commented on that thread something like, how the hell can you drink with your head up Kevin's ***. Crap I wrote ***, more infraction points. I think I need a mentor? You should volunteer. What do you think?

Posted via CB10

[gcopter]

I can't figure out why someone would get so worked up about this? If I wanted to run Android, I would go get an Android phone. Same thing goes for Windows and iOS. I am an ex BB user and now forced to use Android due to my present financial situation (Metro PCS subscriber here with an Android phone). From what I've seen so far, I like the new BB OS10. IMO, it is either an improvement over previous BB OS's or it is a completely new one, and as such, there's gonna be kinks in it and developers who are watching the adoption before they get off their asses and bring popular apps native to BB10. I for one am hoping BB will still be around next year when I can hopefully be able to sign up again with a carrier who has BB phones in their line up. I have used Android on a variety of phones and so far have been not overly impressed. Given a choice, I'd prefer the iOS experience over Android, but, love the physical keyboard of the Q10. And yes, I'm hoping BB comes out with a Q30 next year!

[Loc22]

I think that the OS and the phone is wonderful I like total experience in using this phone. The phone being wonderful doesn't mean that they will be well received.

This phone is a total failure in the market because nobody dares to buy it as everyone is waiting for the demise of Blackberry. Unfortunately Blackberry has not yet gone bankrupt yet, to majority of the people this company and it's product is already dead and bankrupt. So they will not buy or use or even want to hear about this company and it's products or services. Period.

[Dave Bourque]

I think that the OS and the phone is wonderful I like total experience in using this phone. The phone being wonderful doesn't mean that they will be well received.

This phone is a total failure in the market because nobody dares to buy it as everyone is waiting for the demise of Blackberry. Unfortunately Blackberry has not yet gone bankrupt yet, to majority of the people this company and it's product is already dead and bankrupt. So they will not buy or use or even want to hear about this company and it's products or services. Period.

No thanks to the media and BlackBerry's amazing marketing...

Posted via CB10

[M65c02]

Does anyone really think that BB10 would be perfect at launch? Was ios perfect when it first launched ? Was Android when it first launched? No to both questions. BB10 is still very new and it will have lots of growing pains. We are spoiled with the other two os,because they have been around a long time. BB10 will get better.

I thought that these guys were extinct. Yes, it had to be near perfect, or at least much better than competition. No, and the Model T was missing many features found on a simple Chevy today. (And, the Apple II had 8 bit I/O.) Moldova is very new and will have growing pains. Alternatively, BB is old and is coming out of surgery hoping to reclaim some semblance of its former self--trying to revamp that Model T assembly process with what it can copy from today's Chevy. But I do agree that most (we are BB users) smart phone users became spoiled with what IOS/Android provided relative to BB OS7/5. What, again, is your point here?

Treaker, BB10 was quite ...late to the party. When they released BB10, it was a pretty soft OS, missing a lot of features that 10.2 [now has], but BB10 should have had on it's release. Add the lack of apps, the lack of knowledge about side loading, the lack of advertising, and the dreaded blackberry name, and it was quite possibly doomed from the start. I think if the Z10 and Q10 came with 10.2 preloaded, it might not have been so poorly received by the average consumer. When people think BlackBerry,

When people think BlackBerry, this is what comes to mind: [Reference early BB model]
Fortunately for BB, this is what people associated with Apple for quite a few years, and they were able to convince the general public they're innovative.[picture of an Apple IIc]
I think BlackBerry has a fighting chance ...

I enjoyed your logic up to the photos. The proto-type Apple I and marketed Apple II's and III's were the foundation of Apple. ... Well this one I could talk all day (note the call sign) but certainly the II looks like a Model T when placed next to an IPhone (or LISA...oops, MAC).

Well, I don't think BB10 is a failure....I think bringing apps to BB10 is where the failure lies. BB10, in my opinion is the best OS on the market. ... [ blah, blah, blah, blah] ... Now with the upcoming release of 10.2.1, which gives significantly more support for the android runtimes, the app issue will be a thing of the past. ... [more blah, blah, blah] ... Again, BB continues to improve, continues to give what users are asking for, and they are growing very fast. So your comment about BB10 being a failure seems a little harsh, considering you seem to be a BB fan as well. Blackberry screwing up a number of times, doing things that just don't make sense? Absolutely. I can show many failures in regards to what the company has done. But I don't think BB10 itself is where the failure lies.

Neither was the Delorean a failure? How would you describe success? You might not have many demands .... seriously, the OS10 phones have yet to prove reliable albeit we've come a long way as evidenced with 1055 (and 1055 is still not a panacea). I have no idea where the highlighted sentence has any material factual support. This is not about being a BB fan, or not: The most harsh criticism should emanate from a BB fan who simply wants to "win" and not be a blind supporter to the grave. ... Okay, its not the inanimate BB10 (concept) that should be blamed, it's the BB mgmt. behind BB10 ... semantics. ... Wait a second, I missed something: You also are speaking this praise having not ever loaded a leak. H'mmm....interesting.

Totally agree. BTW this will be their LAST chance. Very few times in life a third or fourth chance comes along, so they better make this Android app availability count big time.

This is the newly established four bite (not byte) rule of law. It will take an astronomical-phenomenal turnaround against nearly all historical precedent. Don't see this happening with nothing on the BB drawing board, Chen as CEO, and Prem as the major investor/force on the board. But current BB mgmt. may well be the best team for a salvage job and to see that OS10 somehow survives. Investors were chasing the (three bite) dog all summer before catching and strapping it to the table in August..

The majority of smartphone users like apps, app selection even if they are crap, apps even if they will install the apps and not use them...then there are the others that like reliability, the platform itself, the phone usefulness, the practical users that is. I find BB10 provides all the tools I need for work, I find it the whole platform useful and reliable. I don't care for a range of apps that simply take up space in a phone. I can wait for updates so I don't even bother with the leaks. I guess is a matter of choices. The failure itself is right there, dictated by ... the ones that like apps and selection ... that can't be found on BB10.

Are you talking about smart phones in general? Sounds like you need little more than a dumb phone or a Curve for business. Another 1%er. [Note: Absolutely nothing wrong with moderate phone demands.]

BB10 is NOT a failure.....the issues with iOS are very quirky and weird....such as, i have seen on the new iPad, if you click on the "Brightness" options in the settings TWICE, it crashes Settings....REALLY? What the heck is that all about? I could see if you did something like that in a 3rd party app...but in the SETTINGS app? They have made 7 iphones and they STILL can't get Settings working properly? How many times has my Blackberry Z10 crashed in 2 months? ZERO....i've had Android apps that were side-loaded crash a couple times...but NEVER had FaceBook, Twitter, Hub, etc...crash....

These posters are coming out of the wood work again ... get the spray. Consider altering any attack on IOS/Droid in order to try to purely enhance the look of OS10. It's not logical under the circumstances and quickly loses in a debate. And, "we" attempted to bury those that want to report that they use no Apps as irrelevant because, well, they are statistically irrelevant in regard to a $600 smart phone. Even considering BB OS10 phones as somehow replacing govt (and a few coporate) accounts now using legacy OS7 and acting as a 2nd phone for these consumers, the potential market for BB is still under 2% (vs. 0% current OS10 penetration). [Note: No fibbing on the freezes or reboots but rather than attack veracity let's settle with you simply haven't placed a very great load on your Z.]

I don't think we expected a perfect OS at launch & it's fair to say it's a new OS that needs time to mature. However, let's not forget that BlackBerry was already sinking badly before BB10 launched & there was delay after delay ... [that required] OS10 [to be] as polished as possible because it NEEDED to be! What they delivered was very innovative, fresh but also buggy as hell! Horrible battery life, reboot issues which drove many people insane & MANY other glitches I don't need to get too detailed about. As the saying goes, 'you only have one chance to make a first impression ' & even though I was sold on it for what was to come & is yet to come, they really blew it!

The biggest issue I have with comparing this launch to ios or Android is that BlackBerry had been in the game already for many yrs & you might have expected more from THEM as opposed to ios & android who were starting from scratch when they entered. Thankfully they have survived thus far & they've rid themselves of a CEO who in my opinion failed plus have addressed most many of the OS's shortfalls & have brought someone in who appears to have the ability to turn this ship ... [and address] the forces that matter ... BlackBerry's biggest failure IMO is not the lack of apps but rather a failed marketing attempt to make people realize this is not the same old BlackBerry. Until you change people's perception of this company, it will be a steep uphill battle! What good is having the best, most innovative OS if people don't care about you anymore?

"We" means what here? Yes, "we" did expect perfection at least as matched, if not exceeded what was found within IOS and Droid. "We" knew that BB's very credibility (already fallen) and future existence depended on 20mm, heck give me just 10mm, units sold. You do swing back with comments on BB's demise and its need to bring out an OS that met the definition of, well ahhh, near perfection!!!

Your stated "early poor OS10 marketing" argument (and oft cited by others) has some (weak) legs but if you were in the game then (and where's my copy and paste), OS10 was not ready for prime time, was in fact a mini-disaster relative to IOS/Android, and only now with 10.2 leaks has OS10 taken on some reasonable competitive qualities juxtaposed with IOS and Droid (Apps, Eco-system, Photo quality, reboots/freezes aside).
Actually you do well in describing these shortcomings ... Consider that as poor as this Z10 (and Q10) intro marketing may have been, the disaster if 10.0 had gotten into the hands of former IOS/Droid users ... potentially even more ugly for BB today.

Has BB survived?: Know that a company dies long before the doors are closed or remnants are sold off?? Until BB OS10 posts a credible 5mm units sold in a quarter, BB has no ability to be taken seriously and is considered all but dead.

If the OS was a success, the company would be a success. If the OS is a failure, then... BB10 is Blackberry's biggest product so there's no real interchanging between BBRY's and BB10's success/failure.

I always enjoy good deductive reasoning. Not that it distracts from the conclusion but OS10 (sadly) isn't the revenue nor profit king for BB.

Flawed logic. By that line of deduction you could say bbOS was a failure just because it's no longer popular.

Somehow I can't combine the word "failure" and "so far" in one sentence.
I see BB as a startup - their products are not competing, they are not making big money, etc.
So far, they don't have a good business model. But I would say they failed *only* when CEO announces they leave the smartphone market. So far they are still trying. Will they fail? We'll definitely see.

I agree can't combine in one sentence. When the share price falls from 220+ to 6, that means failure. What we have here is a new company "so far" with the baggage of nightmares of good things gone bad..

Don't like it buy something else. Who cares what you think.

Sparky, what gives!?!

There is one glowing omission in the OP's logic. BlackBerry' s current goals and direction, coupled with the state of the company itself. It's hard not to be encouraged with where the OS is now and what is coming. …

No, it’s very easy and normal to be discouraged with the trend of BB events of the past several months …. And a still unreliable OS10.

BBOS is still more popular than BB10, according to last quarter sales, it out sold 3 to 1.

Yes, I detect heresy in your statement. In all of the arguments for OS10, everyone fails to mention that it has yet to out OS7 (or even OS5) phones for sales, let alone reliability. If OS10 is going to find its market from the low App basic phone and/or those that carry 2-3 phones, then maybe BB would have been better off simply enhancing its tried/true BBOS and be content with 2% of the market .

But it's still no longer in a wider sense. My point stands.

This must be a very wide sense we’re talking about….but BB certainly has tied its future to OS10, so too much discussion on legacy issues may be moot.

There really are some stupid posts on CrackBerry these days... "my brother is stronger than yours" etc... And so many who have all the answers to the worlds problems...

Why this fighting? There are space for all - no need to be the only one .... BB10 is for many a huge success - myself included - and I guess that most of the naysayers really don't need a new phone - all they want is a new toy - a gaming device .... But - all those who needed a Good communication device, which can also be used for other things - are happy with BB10 - and have NO need for sideloading anything. Sideloading is similar to a child's silencer - to "mute" them all... 75-80% of all Android apps can now (soon with 10.2.1) be run on the same device that gives the elegance and power of BB10. Keep in mind - BB10 is not the hardware - its the platform...

Agreed, we need a post every so often on CB to remind of a need for civility. Consider usage of the adjective “ridiculous” or “wasteful” or even “foolish” to “stupid.” Then you lost me. … Actually, BB10 is not a huge success for many, as you contend. Let’s try to keep perspective: OS10 devices represent 0% of the market. And, those that have no need for sideloads (nor installing leaks) w/o another non-BB smart phone I dare say is even less at 0.0% of the marketplace.

I think, perhaps, that you are more referring to a good Bold or Curve device; BB was unable to flip their legacy users and, therefore, they were not considered (or ill-considered) as a suitable market. Regardless, the phone crowd demanding only basics is not a material part of BB’s target market (for OS10 platforms) except maybe as an afterthought with the Q5. … Albeit it is hard to determine what the OS10 target market might be, consumers are not going to pay $600+ for basic calling, texting, and emails. [See below poster.]

The problem is the sector of the market which just wants a "good communication device" is so small that BBRY cant survive in this niche (as the many 10000's of unsold Z10s proves). Truth is customers take the "good communication device" as a gimme. The toys as you call them, are actually the added value that people see as differentiators when selecting a handset to buy.

Further, consumers are not going to pay $500-600+ for phone when they have only basic communication needs nor does OS10 phones have the reliability in this regard that, for example, the Cures or Bold displayed in their prime..

I don't know... that disclaimer message when you install an Android *.apk file seems pretty geared towards consumers.

There we go, using sarcasm to make a point again. LOL

At my store we sell more bb10 than wp.

This must be in the Klondike.

This phone does everything that I need it to, and it is the hub for my self-employed business. Well, if there were some way it could filter out the sheer number of ridiculous, whiny emails I have to deal with on a daily basis, that would be awesome. Some sort of "***** filter," so to speak.

But see, it doesn’t matter. No one is (should) question whether it performs for you or not. “One man’s garbage another man’s treasure.” The issue is that you may be among 0% of the consuming public for smart phones ….

And you KNOW the market that good?
There are many reasons why some things sell - and some don't ... Windows is a good example of that you don't really need a good product to sell .... And also keep in mind - that many of the markets - most carriers outside UK/US/CA - does not "sponsor" any devices the way they do there... so people are "used" to paying $400-800 for a good device... Android devices are being thrown after you from 25$ and up...
Other things are similar... cars ex. ... who needs all these brands and models - they all have at least 4 wheels and carry you from A to B .. right? but many of them have special use - and many are sold with expensive added features that a "normal" person will never be able to use.. ex. a "family" car capable of 300+ Km/h .. Absolute no need [for BB] to be #1,2 or 3 - in order to sell - and be a successful company. You always need to pick the tool that is right for You - that gets the job done. That's why it is so good with options... BlackBerry is not for all, BB10 is not for all, .... should not be - There are many good devices out there -…

What I fail to understand is: If someone is not happy with their Z10, Q10, Q5 or Z30 - or BB10 - why don't they just find another one? Why having to blast all over the place of how unhappy they are.... It's not like you getting married - it's a tool - it's a phone - it's a device... get over it...

There we go again, someone trying to make comparisons with competitors that have outperformed BB. I didn’t know that there was a World outside of US/UK/CA where BB is concerned. And the point about Android devices for as little as $25 is? … that Android controls the top end and the bottom end of the smart phone market with sales approaching 1Billion units sold with App revs alone multiples of BB’s (OS10) total revs. Consider going a bit softer with “Absolutely no need.” [See Delorean below and rf to American Motors. How bout Data General, DEC, Prime, Wang, Burroughs, etc., etc.]

Indeed, there likely is a need to be number 3 to survive with BB’s strategy of a hard/software integrated phones. Regardless, BB cannot survive without selling 15-20mm phones per annum and are a non-entity w/o such tangible sales (i.e., with current 0% of smart phone marketplace). Read the financials. Thus there is negative net cash from OS10 operations, the hourglass has turned, and it will take more than a bucket of water to change things. [But you do sound like a well intentioned parent talking in today’s tones to protect a child.]

Or, alternatively, if someone is so happy with their phone they’d want to get involved with CB. Remember funerals are often involve the biggest collection of people … actually, people with many diverse reasons for being on this site. Hey, I’d just like to see a streamline OS10 with proper interleaving of its radio and data processes/functions .

Let's be honest: BB is not capturing market share, they are losing have no OS10 market share. OP is not that far off. …[L]et me say this: the way BB started out with BB10 has NOT been assisting to facilitate [was not] a smooth new beginning. [Indeed,] OS 10 was horrible on first release, multiple reboots, poor battery life and clearly a work in progress. With 10.2.1 and above, they are clearly heading in the right direction. Do they have enough time to turn this thing around in the cut-throat cellphone business? .... I do hope BB is astute enough to realize that this is probably their last chance. ...

I might have written the first part of this post. .... But, as for your last thought, don't assume that the current goal for BB mgmt. is to turn the company around, per se. The first goal is to dump this baby for a small profit or reduce the losses of an already sunk cost (by Prem and, perhaps, 2 other IV's).

If a user finds the purchased device working to his/her expectations and without any questions - then why would the person spend time on these forums. I believe many invested in the BB hyped stock and watching their investment to melt down so drastically it leaves one no choice as to complain and bash. .... just a general observation.

I agree. The forums have improved drastically, however, since June, and especially the end of August. The penny stock traders are much more confined to a couple sub-forums and threads where they should have been all along. .... As for the rhetorical (?) why participate if seemingly happy, it's the nature of the beast ... many I suspect just doddling and passing time as if on a social website.

The thing is.... people are not buying BB10 because there is no talk about it.... there is no positive news there is no marketing... and somehow even positive news is [spun] negatively

Plenty of talk but not what we need. To what good (and verifiable) news are you referring?

In markets like the U.S., where the phone is subsidized in the contract, people are "married" to their phone for regularly two years. The phone isn't necessarily free with the contract either. The user pays $0-$299 *plus* tax on the unsubsidized price. Switching phones either means buying a new one outright or paying an early termination fee (upwards of $350) to own the BB10 phone, selling it, and getting the new phone subsidized.

True, and today I don't even want to think of May 2015. Best case scenario, BB transforms OS10 into a real "killer OS" by the end of 2014, they increase the user base of total OS10 phones to 15mm (I said best case, not delusional), and they announce a new $500 phone, superior in all respects to the then IPhone and best Droids. ... Ahh, forget it, this is becoming too science fiction. Why not use all the remaining cash, buy out a few smaller cell companies and go from there......LOL

Exactly, a platform/ecosystem is what people care about. And then some specs that cannot be knocked easily. And then a 'cool' factor.
I was utterly disappointed by the price points of the Q10 and Z10 at launch. Those were never designed to grow a platform starting from ZERO users and NIL mind share of a V1.0 OS. I think the hardware and OS is/was [would be] great but it was naive to go toe to toe in price with the mature platforms from the onset. And then we hear a billion's worth of Z10s have be written down and a new flagship all touch is in town so where is the "get these into users hands" discount? A discount is actually not so bad as it grows the ecosystem and attracts more devs? The other problem BB10 still faces; developer indifference..

The strategy of initial selling at a discount was discussed back in March-April and may have been the way to go. I certainly agree that the phone was over-priced regardless of quality of OS10 but especially in light of the drastically flawed 10.0 release. But I'm afraid to flood the market now with phones will also dilute BB's prestige and force a collapse. Now if BB had revenue to be gained from subscription as it did under its legacy phones, perhaps a different outcome. (P.S.--We/I have a different vision/definition of eco-system then a flood of phones.)

It isn't going to discourage me. I loathe writing for Android. BB10 is a joy to develop for. If BlackBerry can make it through all the premature reports of its death, more and more people will be drawn to the platform simply because it is much easier to get things done. The native application development situation will get better. Having more applications available will, if nothing else quite the nay sayers for a while.

You must work in the "Non for Profit" sector ! NO, you have this logic only partially correct: It is the sale of 15-20mm OS10 phones at a suitable profit that will quiet the naysayers for a while. Did BB make it through the premature reports of its death...In modern law we no longer denote death with simply a lack of pulse nor life as simply having a pulse .... think on this one.

Whatcha talking about? BlackBerry OS devices are still outselling BlackBerry 10 devices quarter after quarter after quarter. BBOS may not be as popular as it once was, but it is still more popular than BlackBerry 10 is. Isn't that fact alone enough reason to consider BlackBerry 10 a failure?

Yes, inarguably. And, remove these legacy products tomorrow and the drain really opens fast.

-Jonestown was a man made tragedy... Maybe making what happened there the "****" of a joke will keep the memory of what those people allowed to happen alive and maybe cause someone to stop and think about what they are doing so it doesn't happen again.

Drinking the Kool-Aid is a part of pop culture today.... just as being overly "politically correct" is.

A little diversity here in this thread: I think its good to interject here. Yes, the drinking the Kool Aid is a very descript phrase that fits well into certain business and personal life situations. (I'm not sure, however, that I'd term it a pop-culture term of today and, even as I use it, I think that the historical meaning/significance has faded today?!)

… This phone is a total failure in the market because nobody dares to buy it as everyone is waiting for the demise of Blackberry. Unfortunately Blackberry has not yet gone bankrupt [but], to majority of the people, this company and [its] product is already dead… So they will not buy [nor] use [nor] even want to hear about [BB] and [its] products or services. Period.

Yes, strong but much truth in these statements. There is an old adage about once that dog leaves, it rarely returns with its tail between its legs in admission of error. Here, this means that former users of BB will be reluctant to return except if BB has an incredible product. By no objective observer does OS10 today represent an incredible product (relative to IOS or Android). With the 10.2 release, OS10 may have a competitive product (not withstanding lack of Apps, some reboot/freeze issues, etc., etc.) but it is far from a label of industry leader
[Note: Did you mean “unfortunately” or “fortunately” BB hasn’t gone into Bankruptcy. Let’s hope it gets (further) sold-off before bankruptcy….Freud would no doubt also agree.]

[waterfrontmgmt]

Catch up. It's an industry leader in its new niche market of business and prosumer. iOS doesn't come close. I have not used an Android phone in over a year...but BB10 as an OS is better than iOS.

Posted via CB10

[Dave Bourque]

Catch up. It's an industry leader in its new niche market of business and prosumer. iOS doesn't come close. I have not used an Android phone in over a year...but BB10 as an OS is better than iOS.

Posted via CB10

Now all the Android and iOS defenders are gonna attack you lol... on a BlackBerry forum. it's really crazy...

Posted via CB10

[GadgetTravel]

Does anyone really think that BB10 would be perfect at launch? Was ios perfect when it first launched ? Was Android when it first launched?
No to both questions.
BB10 is still very new and it will have lots of growing pains. We are spoiled with the other two os,because they have been around a long time
BB10 will get better.

Posted via CB10

Sorry, but this totally misses the point which is what it is now. Not what it will be or what iOS and Android were. BB10 is competing against iOS7 and the last few versions of Android. Nothing else matters.