03-13-16 03:30 PM
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  1. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Cost and specs at a time when midtier devices were becoming more popular. Comparable phones like the Moto G and Lumia 630/635 sold quite well in western markets. The value proposition of these devices made them top sellers in emerging markets as well,

    New data confirms Lumia 635's ascent to Windows Phone dominance | Windows Central

    Windows Phone Performance Retrospective November 2014: Windows Phone 8.1 Gains Rapid Pace, Lumia 630, Lumia 635 Earn Popularity

    Moto G sees largest sales in the history of Motorola

    Moto G resurrects Motorola in UK market - CNET

    Motorola Has a Hit?in Brazil - WSJ

    The Z3 was benefiting from this trend to some extent but I don't know if sales or marketshare estimates were ever released (outside of the India numbers below),

    From Indonesia to India ? Z3 Stays On a Roll | Inside BlackBerry

    BlackBerry Z3's initial stock sold out two weeks since launch - timesofindia-economictimes
    If memory serves the Z3 flopped in its target market of Indonesia.
    Also if memory serves it was built in Indonesia presumably to avoid import tariffs for said market.
    So if it couldn't succeed there I doubt it would do better elsewhere.
    The Z3 links are fairly unadulterated puffery, but thanks.
    03-10-16 04:37 PM
  2. Invictus0's Avatar
    If memory serves the Z3 flopped in its target market of Indonesia.
    Also if memory serves it was built in Indonesia presumably to avoid import tariffs for said market.
    So if it couldn't succeed there I doubt it would do better elsewhere.
    The Z3 links are fairly unadulterated puffery, but thanks.
    The way I see it, BlackBerry had a phone that (on paper) was in a similar price and spec bracket as its competition and it could have benefited from this trend (more than it may have) but limited availability and a slow rollout (announced in February, still rolling out in August) hurt its chances. As the links in my other post show, the market became competitive quite quickly.

    BlackBerry officially launches the BlackBerry Z3 in Singapore | CrackBerry.com
    03-10-16 05:16 PM
  3. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    The way I see it, BlackBerry had a phone that (on paper) was in a similar price and spec bracket as its competition and it could have benefited from this trend (more than it may have) but limited availability and a slow rollout (announced in February, still rolling out in August) hurt its chances.
    similar price = pass
    similar spec = pass
    similar ecosystem = fail
    03-10-16 05:22 PM
  4. Invictus0's Avatar
    similar price = pass
    similar spec = pass
    similar ecosystem = fail
    Agreed on price (~$200 would be ok IMO), ecosystem (especially Android compatibility) wasn't that bad in early 2014, especially compared to now. Specs were ok for the time.
    03-10-16 05:53 PM
  5. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    <snip>ecosystem (especially Android compatibility) wasn't that bad in early 2014<snip/>
    And you lost me.
    03-10-16 05:58 PM
  6. Invictus0's Avatar
    And you lost me.
    Don't get me wrong haha, it wasn't perfect but they probably would have had an easier time selling devices when major apps had more recent updates (i.e., a few days/months vs X years ago).
    03-10-16 06:38 PM
  7. vgorous's Avatar
    I would just point out that native application development seems to have picked up a tad, recently. It's almost as if the EOL for BB10 announcements have spurred certain devs to action and attracted a few new ones.

    Can't think why...


    вℓαквєяяу ραѕѕρσят ѕιℓνєя є∂ιтιση
    I noticed that too...

    Posted via CB10
    03-10-16 06:58 PM
  8. deremi's Avatar
    I noticed that too...

    Posted via CB10
    RE: apps picking up.

    Perhaps those that were dragging their feet and using cascades are finally going "oh I am 70% complete, I may as well finish it before it is really useless."
    ravencore likes this.
    03-10-16 07:21 PM
  9. nimra's Avatar
    I first had all possible app stores and on my PP and finally did a wipe and decided to go only with native apps, very happy with it...

    I love the speed and PKB and the lightness, yes device feels lighter and easier to use for me and I don't have to try to remember or think, that I possibly could find an app for this or that...

    I will stay native apps and got myself some nice Moleskine notebooks for paper notes...

    Things seem easier again and more real than virtual...

    When I look at all the younger people at workplace, they have expensive iOS or Droid phones and even do much less than me with those smartphones...btw see at lot lot broken iPhone sreens...

    So I am not sure what all is really pushing all that app hunger, perhaps it's just a voice of an apple commercial in our heads...

    BlackBerry 10 forever!!!

    Posted via CB10
    ravencore likes this.
    03-10-16 07:23 PM
  10. vgorous's Avatar
    A lot of good points from everybody here.

    In writing, directing your profits from one device and carrying it over to fund another model, not to mention that's struggling, does not make it an appealing strategy to management. In the position that BlackBerry got themselves into really does not qualify for room for error. However, it would not really be such a bad idea to maybe keep their diverse portfolio open, as it is at the moment.

    Think of each department like a member of a team. They all started equally and grew strong together. Unfortunate events occur throughout the year and cause a few of those members to under perform due to poor business decisions. Then you get this new player in and shows strength. You exercise it's capabilities to gain a bit more confidence, but not to the extreme that you exhaust this new platform. Instead you start allocating a few of that energy back to the rest of the team so that it can get the support it needs to grow strong again.

    It's a tricky operation but doable.



    Another thing to point out is what makes everyone think that the priv is making profit better than bb10 did?

    Posted via CB10
    03-10-16 07:34 PM
  11. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Another thing to point out is what makes everyone think that the priv is making profit better than bb10 did?
    BB10 has never made a profit - it has in fact cost BB a net of $9-10B US.

    The Priv's total costs are MUCH lower, as Google pays for most of the OS development, ALL of the ecosystem costs, and there are no driver expenses. That's why, according to Chen, BB needed to sell 10M BB10 phones per year to break even, but only 5M per year with the Priv in the mix. The difference in cost is dramatic.

    Now, if BB was able to sell 100M phones per year, those fixed costs wouldn't be all that significant, because they'd be spread across so many phones that the cost per phone would only be a couple of bucks. But at 4M phones a year, the cost per phone is several hundred dollars (on top of the production costs of the phones themselves), which is why BB10 has always ran at a loss.
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-10-16 09:23 PM
  12. vgorous's Avatar
    How can the cost of the priv be cheaper than bb10?

    I feel that the hardware that the priv got exceed the cost to make a bb10 device.

    Posted via CB10
    03-10-16 09:50 PM
  13. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    How can the cost of the priv be cheaper than bb10?

    I feel that the hardware that the priv got exceed the cost to make a bb10 device.

    Posted via CB10
    Math.
    blueberrymerry and JeepBB like this.
    03-10-16 09:55 PM
  14. ravencore's Avatar
    Don't worry!! BlackBerry will rise like a phoenix, it's a matter of time!!! Bb10 will never fade away like symbian or meego or sailfish. Bb10 will stay!!

    Posted via CB10
    After watching countless other mobile operating systems die.. I only wish I had such faith .
    03-11-16 01:29 AM
  15. ravencore's Avatar
    BB10 has never made a profit - it has in fact cost BB a net of $9-10B US.

    The Priv's total costs are MUCH lower, as Google pays for most of the OS development, ALL of the ecosystem costs, and there are no driver expenses. That's why, according to Chen, BB needed to sell 10M BB10 phones per year to break even, but only 5M per year with the Priv in the mix. The difference in cost is dramatic.
    Iv'e never been particularly gifted at math but.
    I would think most of the development costs for bb10 are now behind them and written off as losses and maintenance costs would be about equal. Since they are going to have to do customizations to android too to make them work on specific phone hardware and bug fixes, Android wouldn't be completely free either.
    So I can see how they took massive losses to develop bb10 but I wouldn't think the costs would be so massive to maintain it.
    anon(8393425) likes this.
    03-11-16 01:35 AM
  16. ravencore's Avatar
    Another thing to point out is what makes everyone think that the priv is making profit better than bb10 did?
    Posted via CB10
    I'm not sure it is profiting enough since there are plenty of bb10 holdouts that are just refusing to go android.
    But if there is any chance the BlackBerry actually might keep bb10 alive if priv sales are good they should be communicating that better to the BB faithful.
    Since if I was sure they had some level of actual commitment I probably would buy the priv.
    And knowing that might sure change the relational dynamics on this forum for sure .

    But as one of the other posters said Chen is perhaps ready to let all hardware die.
    I think it's the wrong strategy but i'm also not in charge of BlackBerry .

    Or maybe, I actually AM in charge of blackberry and pretending to be a regular crackberry user trying to get a sense for market sentiment. You never know, crazy things happen .
    ubizmo likes this.
    03-11-16 01:48 AM
  17. uncle_numpty's Avatar
    Math.
    Accounting actualy - don't confuse the two
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-11-16 03:14 AM
  18. vgorous's Avatar
    It seems that all is just speculation that making the Priv costs less than making BB10.

    I am eager to know if it is true.

    The camera.... or even the new sliding mechanism on the Priv sounds like a very costly design. Or is the cost of maintaining Android OS cheaper? Is that what they mean?


    Edit:
    just thought of something else. Maybe BlackBerry is also choosing to get out of BB10 because Android will eventually plan on making an OS that has a lot of similarities to BB10?


    Posted via CB10
    03-11-16 04:33 PM
  19. JeepBB's Avatar
    just thought of something else. Maybe BlackBerry is also choosing to get out of BB10 because Android will eventually plan on making an OS that has a lot of similarities to BB10?
    Yup, definitely at the bargaining stage.
    03-11-16 05:41 PM
  20. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Iv'e never been particularly gifted at math but.
    I would think most of the development costs for bb10 are now behind them and written off as losses and maintenance costs would be about equal. Since they are going to have to do customizations to android too to make them work on specific phone hardware and bug fixes, Android wouldn't be completely free either.
    So I can see how they took massive losses to develop bb10 but I wouldn't think the costs would be so massive to maintain it.
    The problem is that maintaining BB10 necessitates a LOT more than simple "maintenance" of the OS itself. You also have to work at maintaining the entire ecosystem (BB World, and all of the BB10 apps that run on BB10 phones), and you'd have to pay for drivers for new hardware, development to make them work right (it's not simple plug-and-play), and you'd have to continue to update components as technologies evolve. Then, you have to keep a whole additional set of marketing and distribution infrastructure in place, because carriers aren't going to sell BB10 for you if you don't have any of that. The costs start to spiral out of control quickly, but you simply don't have a viable product unless you do all that. The only thing they can do relatively inexpensively (and even this would be hard to turn a profit on) is to make additional batches of older models - the Classic, Leap, or the Passport. Older devices don't have adequate radio support to be viable, and as I demonstrated above, the costs of making any new devices is a lot more than most people realize. And because the price of those devices has already fallen, BB couldn't really make enough money even making more older devices unless they can get BES subscriptions to go along with them - and even then, the devices would just be a loss leader.

    With Android, most of those costs simply go away. Sure, BB is doing some customization and is making Android versions of some of the BB apps - but those have value even if BB exits hardware altogether, because they can run on any Android phone. Carriers don't need special training on the Priv or other BB Android devices because they already understand it and know how to support it. Friction at all levels is much lower, because the entire Android ecosystem of apps, services, 3rd party hardware, etc. is automatically available with no fuss.
    app_Developer and JeepBB like this.
    03-11-16 05:45 PM
  21. nimra's Avatar
    @ Troy, give us some hope, not the usual 'why things are not going to work out' in this thread... pLeAsE!!!

    Posted via CB10
    03-11-16 06:12 PM
  22. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    @ Troy, give us some hope, not the usual 'why things are not going to work out' in this thread... pLeAsE!!!

    Posted via CB10
    Sorry, no hope but we've got some nice tea and Garibaldis.
    03-11-16 06:21 PM
  23. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    @ Troy, give us some hope, not the usual 'why things are not going to work out' in this thread... pLeAsE!!!
    Sorry - that's BB's job, not mine. The bad news is all coming straight from BB (though sometimes it is wrapped in PR-speak so as not to completely kill sales of existing inventory). Nothing I say is going to reverse the facts, which are that BB has systematically shut down BB10, starting about 2 years ago and continuing through today, with multiple rounds of layoffs, selling off buildings, shutting down development, outsourcing phone design and engineering, etc. The biggest, most obvious, completely unavoidable sign is that they officially admit not releasing a BB10 phone for about 20 months (the last new phone was the Leap) but releasing an Android phone, and calling their corporate customers and encouraging them to move to the Priv. I didn't make any of those decisions, nor did anyone here at CB. But they happened, and they mean something, even if some folks are in denial about what that meaning is. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out, though.

    Whether you like the facts is another matter, but it doesn't change what the facts are. But some here are in fact denying the facts, or doing their best to convince themselves (and others) that those facts can't really mean what they mean. They're still in Stage 1 of the 5 stages of grief: Denial. And some will continue at that stage until the official announcement is finally made, at which time they'll move to Stage 2, which is Anger. People will post videos of themselves smashing their BB phones, or throwing them away, or whatever. They'll call for Chen's head, or curse Heins's name, or complain for the billionth time that BB should have advertise more or released a flagship all-touch or spent more to woo developers. But it won't change anything...
    Uzi, JeepBB, StephanieMaks and 2 others like this.
    03-11-16 06:27 PM
  24. app_Developer's Avatar
    @ Troy, give us some hope, not the usual 'why things are not going to work out' in this thread... pLeAsE!!!
    Maybe the BB10 section of this site should be re-organized into subforums:

    • Denial [No posts remotely related to reality, pls]
    • Anger
    • Bargaining
    • ...etc.
    JeepBB and Ronindan like this.
    03-11-16 06:46 PM
  25. thurask's Avatar
    @ Troy, give us some hope, not the usual 'why things are not going to work out' in this thread... pLeAsE!!!

    Posted via CB10
    Well, then he'd be lying, no?
    Ronindan likes this.
    03-11-16 10:20 PM
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