02-02-15 08:41 AM
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  1. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    That's the part you find important? I guess we have geography and grammar police now
    Then why did you find it necessary to say that only carriers in the middle east did this? Bell Canada (North America) did it initially. I've head from users in Europe and Southern Africa that are dealing with this.

    Z10STL100-3/10.3.1.1154
    12-30-14 12:04 PM
  2. Yass85's Avatar
    Ffs. No, bb10 is not using BIS unless it is forced to!

    Posted via fantastic BlackBerry Passport. Damn, this thing is so awesome, that I am short of words to describe it's awesomenes. Like Majestic As...
    You're right bro. The carrier forces to use the bis infrastructure but can only block blackberry services like bbm.

    Posted via CB10 on Q10
    12-30-14 12:04 PM
  3. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Then why did you find it necessary to say that only carriers in the middle east did this? Bell Canada (North America) did it initially. I've head from users in Europe and Southern Africa that are dealing with this.

    Z10STL100-3/10.3.1.1154
    It's not important, what's important is BB10 still uses the BIS infrastructure.


    This is good and bad, bad for some users that's are forced to pay, good as there might be hope of getting full BIS back.
    12-30-14 12:11 PM
  4. Yass85's Avatar
    It's not important, what's important is BB10 still uses the BIS infrastructure.


    This is good and bad, bad for some users that's are forced to pay, good as there might be hope of getting full BIS back.
    I totally agree with you bro.

    I may pay for bis if I want and should have all its benefits. But I refuse to be FORCED to pay and for a bbm only service.

    Posted via CB10 on Q10
    12-30-14 01:08 PM
  5. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    It's not important, what's important is BB10 still uses the BIS infrastructure.


    This is good and bad, bad for some users that's are forced to pay, good as there might be hope of getting full BIS back.
    There is a difference between using the NOC infrastructure and using BIS. Some people think that because BB10 uses BES that it could be made to use BIS. You think that because BlackBerry used their existing network infrastructure to support BB10 services that it could be made to use BIS. The fact is that if BlackBerry wanted to they could write BIS as an application layer on iOS and Android. They did it once before for some Java phones. If BIS is ever supported beyond BBOS they will probability use their NOCs to support it. But all of that has little to do with the carriers routing of data.

    BIS doesn't need carrier support, it works on Wi-Fi. It also works across USB to a PC with the right software and an internet connection. So the tribulations of the OP are not going to have any impact on BIS coming back. Some carriers would like to get rid of the BlackBerry node on their network, so they won't accept BB10 devices on that APN, hoping BBOS will die and they can drop their relationship with BlackBerry. Others see pushing BB10 devices onto the BlackBerry APN as a way to make more money. Still others may have their own reasons.

    All of this gives rise to BB10 users who know that there is no technical reason for them to have a different account than an Android user, but are forced by their carrier to pay a premium for BlackBerry service, get less service than others paying the same amount, or go to another carrier. Often going to another carrier isn't really a viable choice.

    Not surprising, if you read only the OP's contribution to the thread, he has realised much of this already. He is working the issue with his carrier and doing a good job. I don't know that he will be successful, but I hope he is.

    To those who want to have BIS on BB10, this of course could happen. BIS would need the NOCs, but they aren't going anywhere. They are needed for BES, even if BBOS completely disappeared. The NOC elements in carriers' networks is not needed in most of the world, however. That architecture was made necessary by the poor mobile data connectivity world wide when BlackBerry first rolled out BES. But as we have seen, much of the world has good enough Internet service that BlackBerry devices can get connected to the NOC just by connecting to the Internet. Where that is not true a BlackBerry presence in the carrier's network will probably continue.

    So piling on to a thread of someone just trying to work out fair billing with a carrier won't hasten BIS to BB10. If you really BIS on BB10 start a thread, or even as for a forum where like minded people can organise. Then try to convince BlackBerry to provide it as a subscription service. They have been testing a BES subscription service for almost a year now. If it is successful they might try BIS if they see profit in it. The BES subscription does not need special carrier accounts.

    So this kind of thread isn't important if you want BIS back. Convincing BlackBerry they can make money providing the service is important.



    Z10STL100-3/10.3.1.1154
    Alain_A and ediggity like this.
    12-30-14 01:28 PM
  6. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Too much to reply so I'll stick to the point, BIS doesn't need carrier support on wifi but it does need carrier support when used over their network.

    I clearly remember a former CB member called dangermouse that worked for Vodafone UK mentioning special hardware installed at the carrier end to enable BIS to work.

    Sounds like that hardware is what BB10 is using to enable special BB10 services that rely on the NOCs.
    12-30-14 02:14 PM
  7. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    Too much to reply so I'll stick to the point, BIS doesn't need carrier support on wifi but it does need carrier support when used over their network.
    As it is currently implemented that is true. BES used to need carrier support as well, but the BlackBerry cloud BES solution doesn't. As I said. Since BIS and BES are carried by the same protocol there is no reas BIS could not be updated to work without carrier support.

    I clearly remember a former CB member called dangermouse that worked for Vodafone UK mentioning special hardware installed at the carrier end to enable BIS to work.

    Sounds like that hardware is what BB10 is using to enable special BB10 services that rely on the NOCs.
    Again, as currently implemented. But that doen't mean BB10 uses it to get to the NOC. In some cases, the OP's situation that may be true. But it is clearly not necessarily so. When that device is used to connect a handset to the NOC, the carrier pays a subscription fee (thought to be between $US3 and $US5 per month) to BlackBerry. If they face no real competition and can charge that subscribe $US30 extra because he has a BlackBerry why would they not? Doesn't me they have to, or that other carriers are.

    IT services are all about changing over time. If BlackBerry saw BIS as a viable product going forward I'm sure they could solve the carrier support problem as they have for BES. It seems pretty clear that BlackBerry doesn't see BIS as a money maker. If I am correct in this assesment it doesn't matter what carriers do BB10 won't get support for BIS. As some point, when the number of BBOS BIS subscriptions drop below a critical number, BlackBerry will discontinue BIS. The NOCs will continue as long as BlackBerry is a service company. With BES, IoT and automotive systems I'm sure they will find a use for the data centres. The BlackBerry hardware in carriers' networks will continue as long as the carriers in question and BlackBerry get mutual benefit from them. But anyone transitioning from BBOS/BIS today gets one year email forwarding support. That is a pretty clear indication that, at the moment at least, regardless of the future BlackBerr sees for the NOCs, it doesn't include BIS after BBOS. If you go back through the record you will find that BlackBerry was planning on requiring BlackBerry Data plans for BB10 devices. The big carriers said no, and BlackBerry changed. If they use the BlackBerry hardware to support BB10 devices they will be paying BlackBerry a suscription fee for each user. Why would they do that, and not charge the fee back to the user? Especially when they can use their own network to put the data on the internet, let BlackBerry work about how they are going to provide services like BBM and Protect, and keep all the money for themselves?

    It is going to be a lot harder to convince anyone that BIS should be given a new life after the last subscriber is turned off. The financial report on BlackBerry make a point of counting down the dwindling number of user paying for BlackBerry plans. But do what ever you think is best.
    12-30-14 05:04 PM
  8. TheAuthority's Avatar
    I could not think of one articulable "valid business reason" that could be cited to justify charging BB10 users for BIS, but here's one thought that's a bit of a stretch. Let's say 50% of BB7 users (just making up these numbers) have migrated to BB10. The carriers still have the BB7 BIS equipment to maintain, but only have 50% of BB7 users they had before left to help pay for it. They could a) up the charges for the remnant BB7 users; or b) disperse the cost among all BlackBerry users. That might explain why most of the reports of carriers that are charging BB10 users for BIS seem to be small carriers in small markets. (The Canadian carrier that was doing it for a while then stopped probably just saw it as an opportunity to gouge/cash in.)

    As for the future of BIS, it has been said here that BlackBerry sees no need for traditional BIS in the future (evidenced by Blackberry giving BB10 users email forwarding for a year), but that doesn't mean that BlackBerry can't or won't provide BIS-like service(s) which use the noc to users in the future. For example, BlackBerry could provide paid, ad-free email like the BIS email address I enjoyed on BB7 now being forwarded only to my BB10 device. I hope this happens. I would rather pay BlackBerry for reliable, ad-free email than pay godaddy.
    12-31-14 12:22 PM
  9. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    "As for the future of BIS, it has been said here that BlackBerry sees no need for traditional BIS in the future (evidenced by Blackberry giving BB10 users email forwarding for a year), but that doesn't mean that BlackBerry can't or won't provide BIS-like service(s) which use the noc to users in the future. For example, BlackBerry could provide paid, ad-free email like the BIS email address I enjoyed on BB7 now being forwarded only to my BB10 device. I hope this happens. I would rather pay BlackBerry for reliable, ad-free email than pay godaddy."

    Don't forget that strategy was started by the previous CEO which stated the trackpad will never come back.

    JC did a u turn on that, there's no reason why BIS couldn't.

    BIS was made for small businesses/self employed professionals, BB10 has nothing at all on offer for them.
    12-31-14 12:49 PM
  10. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    I could not think of one articulable "valid business reason" that could be cited to justify charging BB10 users for BIS, but here's one thought that's a bit of a stretch. Let's say 50% of BB7 users (just making up these numbers) have migrated to BB10. The carriers still have the BB7 BIS equipment to maintain, but only have 50% of BB7 users they had before left to help pay for it. They could a) up the charges for the remnant BB7 users; or b) disperse the cost among all BlackBerry users. That might explain why most of the reports of carriers that are charging BB10 users for BIS seem to be small carriers in small markets. (The Canadian carrier that was doing it for a while then stopped probably just saw it as an opportunity to gouge/cash in.)
    Business decisions are usually made for short term (one or two quarters out) gain. How many times have you seen a phone company do something to benefit their current user base unless they are afraid of loosing them?

    There was speculation that Bell Canada did it because they thought many iPhone users that came from BlackBerry would go back. Forcing them onto a BlackBerry data plan would get them off their unlimited data iPhone plans. But, like I said, speculation. Maybe they thought most BBOS users would upgrade and didn't want to loose their share of the BlackBerry subscription fee.

    As for the future of BIS, it has been said here that BlackBerry sees no need for traditional BIS in the future (evidenced by Blackberry giving BB10 users email forwarding for a year), but that doesn't mean that BlackBerry can't or won't provide BIS-like service(s) which use the noc to users in the future. For example, BlackBerry could provide paid, ad-free email like the BIS email address I enjoyed on BB7 now being forwarded only to my BB10 device. I hope this happens. I would rather pay BlackBerry for reliable, ad-free email than pay godaddy.
    BBM, Protect, Password Syncing and now probably Blend all use the NOC. None use BIS. Sure BlackBerry could pivot again and provide those services to BB10 users. If you can think of a reason they would do that other than it would improve the bottom line of there handset business I would like to hear it. The trick isn't in convincing each other if it would improve the bottom line or not, it is convincing BlackBerry that it would. If you want those services.
    12-31-14 02:49 PM
  11. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    JC did a u turn on that, there's no reason why BIS couldn't.
    True, he just needs to be convinced. I'm just saying what I read on threads like this on wouldn't convince me. I'm not JC, but be honest with yourself would it convince you? Of the couple dozen BlackBerry users I know, none of them want BIS back. If they had to pay for it they would go back to iPhone or Android.
    12-31-14 02:54 PM
  12. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    True, he just needs to be convinced. I'm just saying what I read on threads like this on wouldn't convince me. I'm not JC, but be honest with yourself would it convince you? Of the couple dozen BlackBerry users I know, none of them want BIS back. If they had to pay for it they would go back to iPhone or Android.
    Most people on CB didn't want the trackpad back, I was ridiculed for wanting it back many times, yet it's back with a bang.
    12-31-14 03:07 PM
  13. yessuz's Avatar
    "
    BIS was made for small businesses/self employed professionals, BB10 has nothing at all on offer for them.
    This is a pile of cr## my friend

    Posted via fantastic BlackBerry Passport. Damn, this thing is so awesome, that I am short of words to describe it's awesomenes. Like Majestic As...
    12-31-14 05:44 PM
  14. yessuz's Avatar
    Most people on CB didn't want the trackpad back, I was ridiculed for wanting it back many times, yet it's back with a bang.
    And I still see no reason for that.
    Bb10 is not optimized for that!

    You'll get some sort of hybrid.

    Posted via fantastic BlackBerry Passport. Damn, this thing is so awesome, that I am short of words to describe it's awesomenes. Like Majestic As...
    12-31-14 05:46 PM
  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    This is a pile of cr## my friend

    Posted via fantastic BlackBerry Passport. Damn, this thing is so awesome, that I am short of words to describe it's awesomenes. Like Majestic As...
    When I bought my first BlackBerry from Vodafone they weren't available for regular consumer contracts, they were offered on business contracts only.

    Don't confuse business contracts with BES though.
    12-31-14 05:50 PM
  16. yessuz's Avatar
    When I bought my first BlackBerry from Vodafone they weren't available for regular consumer contracts, they were offered on business contracts only.

    Don't confuse business contracts with BES though.
    20 years ago mobile phones were business use exclusively

    Posted via fantastic BlackBerry Passport. Damn, this thing is so awesome, that I am short of words to describe it's awesomenes. Like Majestic As...
    12-31-14 06:23 PM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    20 years ago mobile phones were business use exclusively

    Posted via fantastic BlackBerry Passport. Damn, this thing is so awesome, that I am short of words to describe it's awesomenes. Like Majestic As...
    No they weren't lol, I bought my first one 18 years ago in Romania, never mind western countries.
    12-31-14 06:26 PM
  18. yessuz's Avatar
    I talk about 20. Maybe a bit more.

    18 vs 20 in mobile technology is a lot

    Posted via fantastic BlackBerry Passport. Damn, this thing is so awesome, that I am short of words to describe it's awesomenes. Like Majestic As...
    12-31-14 06:52 PM
  19. canadian nick's Avatar
    Let me guess... you're in Canada? You can thank the combination of the brilliant government of Canada eliminating the 3yr contract in a strictly political move, and the oligopoly using that as an opportunity to shift their plans around to capitalize on the insatiable appetite for data we have. Supply and demand at its finest. Hang on to that 6gb plan for as long as you can. The hardware subsidies don't justify the newer, more expensive plans.

    But anyhow, those bis fees were previously paid by the carrier and invisible to the customer. In the case of Bell, I believe they managed to enforce the fake bb10 bis policy through a simple soc code. They smartened up after hearing enough complaints (well documented in these forums) and wasting time and money on troubleshooting issues with it. I sense that this too, was a ploy to shift customers to newer, less data-rich plans.
    My sim card says my service is BIS2GB. I'm on bell Canada and I have a new plan (came out this year)

    Posted via CB10
    12-31-14 07:59 PM
  20. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    When I bought my first BlackBerry from Vodafone they weren't available for regular consumer contracts, they were offered on business contracts only.

    Don't confuse business contracts with BES though.
    That's one carrier. Especially with BlackBerry you can't determine the intended use of something from what carriers say or do.

    Z10STL100-3/10.3.1.1154
    01-01-15 10:40 AM
  21. TheAuthority's Avatar
    BBM, Protect, Password Syncing and now probably Blend all use the NOC. None use BIS. Sure BlackBerry could pivot again and provide those services to BB10 users. If you can think of a reason they would do that other than it would improve the bottom line of there handset business I would like to hear it. The trick isn't in convincing each other if it would improve the bottom line or not, it is convincing BlackBerry that it would. If you want those services.
    Yes, but that's why I said BIS-like services and meant specifically paid email (like the address that came with BIS). I don't see what the big deal would be about providing that. BlackBerry has the noc, the servers. Why not make some money on email?
    joeragan likes this.
    01-01-15 10:49 PM
  22. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    Yes, but that's why I said BIS-like services and meant specifically paid email (like the address that came with BIS). I don't see what the big deal would be about providing that. BlackBerry has the noc, the servers. Why not make some money on email?
    Like I told belfastdispatcher, convince BlackBerry that they can. I filled a Jira suggestion that they make BIS available by direct subscription through BlackBerry World. I believe that without major carrier support they don't see any money in it.

    Z10STL100-3/10.3.1.1154
    01-02-15 08:39 AM
  23. reeneebob's Avatar
    Was/is there a technical reason for this? If BlackBerry doesn't require it on BB10, why would a carrier require it (other than to make more money)? I mean why would BlackBerry even leave it as an option for carriers?
    The plan cost the same whether it was smartphone data or BIS data. It wasn't a money grab. I ran my z10 On smartphone data and changed the apn on bell and if I looked at data usage breakdowns it still logged it as 'Blackberry Data' instead of mobile data like any other phone. They had no way of knowing I was running a z10 on my iPhone line because I never changed the imei in my account and the phone was a gift from BB directly.

    So that tells me that the data use is somehow different still than with any other phone. BIS or not.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    01-02-15 08:46 AM
  24. Yass85's Avatar
    Hello Guys

    Some updates here.

    Technical Director at Maroc Telecom told me that nothing can be changed unless marketing decides to remove BIS requirement from a BlackBerry phone, BBOS or BB10. They reroute all data from a BlackBerry to the same infrastructure to make BlackBerry services, even if it's BBM only, paid. The only solution now is, as the technical team said to my contact is to use an android or ios phone. BlackBerry is bloqued because it's BlackBerry. It's commercial only reason.

    He also said that the only way to change this would be if BlackBerry called Maroc Telecom and force them to make it free for BB10 users as it is for android, iphones and windows phones.

    I got no response from Michael Clewley.

    Waiting for crackberry community's HELP to ask BlackBerry to take over this against Maroc Telecom.

    Posted via CB10 on Q10
    commandos135 likes this.
    01-02-15 04:52 PM
  25. Yass85's Avatar
    Just another small post to inform you that my father's Z10 had been stolen weeks ago.

    I am not able to track it on BlackBerry Protect. Pin Message are not delivered and when I add the PIN on BBM I have no answer.

    This may be linked to Maroc Telecom's traffic blocking that prevents me from finding the phone and hepls thefts to use and sell BlackBerrys...

    Posted via CB10 on Q10
    commandos135 likes this.
    01-02-15 05:01 PM
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