01-13-18 02:51 PM
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  1. palewhiteninja's Avatar
    I think dark hub would be a nice final swan song to bb10 fans. How hard could it be to code that? Disclaimer, idk anything about qnx or the world around me
    Last edited by palewhiteninja; 06-27-17 at 12:18 PM.
    06-27-17 11:47 AM
  2. Kryngle's Avatar
    Pffft, if the OS ain't Android don't hold your breath or people will begin calling u Papa Smurf.

    Posted via CB10
    06-27-17 09:18 PM
  3. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Pffft, if the OS ain't Android don't hold your breath or people will begin calling u Papa Smurf.

    Posted via CB10
    LMFAO.
    06-30-17 12:30 PM
  4. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Roughly 0.048% market share. But when rounded off...
    That's sales, which doesn't include the installed base still using old phones. It's still a small number, but nowhere near that small.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    06-30-17 01:10 PM
  5. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I waould like to raise the question as to how many BB10 users there actually are still out there. Any takers on a poll? I have a Passport SE that I use next toa Priv.
    A reasonable estimate would be about 2M and dropping quickly. The last designs, the PP and the Leap, are both over 2 years old at this point, and while the PP SE isn't quite that old, it's really just a different case around the exact same hardware. Few people keep a smartphone much longer than 2 years even if it's fully supported, and we all know that BB10 is rapidly growing obsolete and losing support. I think that number will be 1M or less by the end of the year.
    06-30-17 01:30 PM
  6. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    A reasonable estimate would be about 2M and dropping quickly. The last designs, the PP and the Leap, are both over 2 years old at this point, and while the PP SE isn't quite that old, it's really just a different case around the exact same hardware. Few people keep a smartphone much longer than 2 years even if it's fully supported, and we all know that BB10 is rapidly growing obsolete and losing support. I think that number will be 1M or less by the end of the year.
    Wow. Now I feel really special.

    I would have guessed more, but that includes people who double carry. In any case, it's almost certainly between 1 and 10 million, and probably < 5M.

    At 2M that would be < 0.0002% of smart phone users.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    06-30-17 01:46 PM
  7. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    The last time BB mentioned user base (total between BBOS and BB10), the number was only 8M, and that was a couple of quarters ago, and they've been shedding around 2M per quarter, so that's a pretty reasonable guess.
    06-30-17 09:28 PM
  8. dpgo's Avatar
    You might as well stop bothering. Not one penny of resources at BlackBerry is going to be allocated to expunge the Android runtime from bb10. Nor would it be an easy thing to do anyways.
    But this is huge mistake, because a happy user who feels that after some years using well supported device has recovered the paid investment is very likely that will buy your new device (imagine keyone2)

    An unhappy user who doesn't trust in a company, probably will buy a device from someone else.

    Something similar happened with PalmOS and Palm WebOS, executives and other parasites forgot about the users, but most of users never forgave them the years with lack of support. And at the end the cheap became expensive

    Posted via CB10
    07-26-17 10:19 AM
  9. conite's Avatar
    But this is huge mistake, because a happy user who feel that after some years using well supported device has recovered the paid investment is very likely that will buy your new device (imagine keyone2)

    An unhappy user who doesn't trust in a company, probably will buy a device from someone else.

    Something similar happened with PalmOS and Palm WebOS, the CEO, executives and other parasites forgot about the users, but most of them never forgave the years of lack of support

    Posted via CB10
    There aren't enough of you to buy a small car.

    Besides, did you not get value from your product already?
    07-26-17 10:22 AM
  10. thurask's Avatar
    But this is huge mistake, because a happy user who feel that after some years using well supported device has recovered the paid investment is very likely that will buy your new device (imagine keyone2)
    And yet, pouring yet more money into the pit of burnt cash that is BB10 isn't going to return anything for BlackBerry.
    07-26-17 10:26 AM
  11. dpgo's Avatar
    And yet, pouring yet more money into the pit of burnt cash that is BB10 isn't going to return anything for BlackBerry.
    I am not asking for a huge team, just a 4 or 5 skilled developers
    -ART can be polished and some android apps can work better.
    -webkit browser should be updated, they decide to fork that BSD license browser, so they should update to a new webkit version or at least deliver the previous ported code for the community.

    Unfortunately during lasts years we owe more to cobalt, conite and other power users than to blackberry employees


    Posted via CB10
    07-26-17 10:39 AM
  12. Huussi's Avatar
    I am not asking for a huge team, just a 4 or 5 skilled developers
    -ART can be polished and some android apps can work better.
    -webkit browser should be updated, they decide to fork that BSD license browser, so they should update to a new webkit version or at least deliver the previous ported code for the community.

    Unfortunately during lasts years we owe more to cobalt, conite and other power users than to blackberry employees


    Posted via CB10
    That would require spending money and time on something that won't make them a single cent of revenue.
    BlackBerry is a company and a company needs revenue to grow, putting any more time and effort to bb10 would be idiotic.
    07-26-17 11:54 AM
  13. markmall's Avatar
    The last time BB mentioned user base (total between BBOS and BB10), the number was only 8M, and that was a couple of quarters ago, and they've been shedding around 2M per quarter, so that's a pretty reasonable guess.
    I would be surprised if this number were correct. Do you remember who said this and when?

    Posted via CB10
    07-26-17 12:09 PM
  14. eshropshire's Avatar
    But this is huge mistake, because a happy user who feels that after some years using well supported device has recovered the paid investment is very likely that will buy your new device (imagine keyone2)

    An unhappy user who doesn't trust in a company, probably will buy a device from someone else.

    Something similar happened with PalmOS and Palm WebOS, executives and other parasites forgot about the users, but most of users never forgave them the years with lack of support. And at the end the cheap became expensive

    Posted via CB10
    Blackberry Limited is out of the hardware business. If you buy a BlackBerry phone, you are buying one from BlackBerry Limited (TCL). There is no one to sell a new BB10 phone. BlackBerry Limited no longer has any of the business or technical resources to build, sell and support hardware. BlackBerry Mobile is only doing Android.
    07-26-17 01:07 PM
  15. jjinal's Avatar
    I still regret that RIM/BB has never made "rugged" or at least IP certified devices.
    Too late now.
    You must not have been around for the original BBs. The ones with the wheel on the side were built like Tonka trucks. They weren't waterproof but they were definitely rugged.

    Posted via CB10
    07-27-17 04:49 PM
  16. DonHB's Avatar
    That would require spending money and time on something that won't make them a single cent of revenue.
    BlackBerry is a company and a company needs revenue to grow, putting any more time and effort to bb10 would be idiotic.
    Would anyone who wants new devices pay for a 10.3.4 upgrade on their existing device? What would you want in the release to make paying for an upgrade worthwhile?

    I would want Android Player to be an optional download from BlackBerry World and it be open sourced.

    I also would want the browser to be upgraded or replaced with a new implementation.

    Not necessary, but would be nice if they would take preorders for doing something similar to what they did with the Dteks for BB10. Could be with their existing Android partner manufacturers or others.
    07-27-17 07:03 PM
  17. dmlis's Avatar
    You must not have been around for the original BBs. The ones with the wheel on the side were built like Tonka trucks. They weren't waterproof but they were definitely rugged.

    Posted via CB10
    Agree.
    But many mobile devices were quite robust at that time, weren't they? My Philips Ozeo (also with the wheel on the side) was almost indestructible, like old Volvos.
    We could abuse our phones and use them for a week or so.... Today we can't drop them from 1 m without consequences and have to charge them every day... Progress, they say.
    07-28-17 06:22 PM
  18. eshropshire's Avatar
    Would anyone who wants new devices pay for a 10.3.4 upgrade on their existing device? What would you want in the release to make paying for an upgrade worthwhile?

    I would want Android Player to be an optional download from BlackBerry World and it be open sourced.

    I also would want the browser to be upgraded or replaced with a new implementation.

    Not necessary, but would be nice if they would take preorders for doing something similar to what they did with the Dteks for BB10. Could be with their existing Android partner manufacturers or others.
    The type of work you are describing would require at least a 10.4 release. The work would touch deep inside the OS and require a team of at least 25 to 30 (probably more) developers and testers and take around 12 to 18 months. Main reason for the time is BlackBerry would have to hire and train developers to do mobile OS work. I know you seem to think BlackBerry has a bunch of BB10 developers in closets at Waterloo, but no they were almost all let go in 2015. Doing this work in North America would be very expensive. Knowing how much I pay for developers, I estimate the cost at a least 3 to 4 million dollars. Why spend this much on BB10 for zero return instead of investing the money in enterprise software.
    07-28-17 07:43 PM
  19. DonHB's Avatar
    ...Main reason for the time is BlackBerry would have to hire and train developers to do mobile OS work. I know you seem to think BlackBerry has a bunch of BB10 developers in closets at Waterloo, but no they were almost all let go in 2015
    People seem to think that BB10 has no relation to QNX Neutrino and that no one at QNX is qualified to work on BB10 development. It would be interesting to know how much if anything of BB10 is in Radar.

    Why spend this much on BB10 for zero return instead of investing the money in enterprise software.
    I asked if people wanting a new device would be willing to pay for the upgrade to what could be 10.3.4 for existing devices and what they would want changed to make it worth their dollars.

    If people are ready to pay for upgrades for aging hardware it may convince the decisions makers that people are ready to pay for an on-the-market device running BB10. That is, do for BB10 what was done for the Dteks, but on pre-order basis.
    07-29-17 09:59 PM
  20. conite's Avatar
    People seem to think that BB10 has no relation to QNX Neutrino and that no one at QNX is qualified to work on BB10 development. It would be interesting to know how much if anything of BB10 is in Radar.

    I asked if people wanting a new device would be willing to pay for the upgrade to what could be 10.3.4 for existing devices and what they would want changed to make it worth their dollars.

    If people are ready to pay for upgrades for aging hardware it may convince the decisions makers that people are ready to pay for an on-the-market device running BB10. That is, do for BB10 what was done for the Dteks, but on pre-order basis.
    There is essentially no connection between QNX and BB10 from a developer standpoint.

    You would have to pay about $3000-$5000 per user to fund an update.
    07-29-17 11:22 PM
  21. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    I asked if people wanting a new device would be willing to pay for the upgrade to what could be 10.3.4 for existing devices and what they would want changed to make it worth their dollars.

    If people are ready to pay for upgrades for aging hardware it may convince the decisions makers
    Here's the rub. If you had a million users willing to pay, and wanted at least a half booty effort, they'd only need to toss around $20 each per year. ART still would sit at 4.3, so all you could do is make a great OS slightly better, and it's glaring limitations would continue to exacerbate. It would be a stretch to believe 100,000 users would pay for minimal advancement, especially since the price per person would now be $200. So maybe, just maybe there are 10,000 hardcore BB10 fans willing to toss in their cash, but at $2,000?

    You are never going to find enough victims willingly embarking on a losing venture, to support an attempt.
    Ecm likes this.
    07-29-17 11:35 PM
  22. eshropshire's Avatar
    People seem to think that BB10 has no relation to QNX Neutrino and that no one at QNX is qualified to work on BB10 development. It would be interesting to know how much if anything of BB10 is in Radar.

    I asked if people wanting a new device would be willing to pay for the upgrade to what could be 10.3.4 for existing devices and what they would want changed to make it worth their dollars.

    If people are ready to pay for upgrades for aging hardware it may convince the decisions makers that people are ready to pay for an on-the-market device running BB10. That is, do for BB10 what was done for the Dteks, but on pre-order basis.
    Blackberry took over four years to create BB10 on top of QNX. The QNX Team is not the team that created BB10. QNX was always a separate team that had a different market. I doubt one developer at QNX has any idea of the inner workings of BB10. Currently the QNX team has assigned projects that make money for BlackBerry. Why would BlackBerry stop that work to work on a project that makes no money.
    07-30-17 06:39 PM
  23. DonHB's Avatar
    There is essentially no connection between QNX and BB10 from a developer standpoint.

    You would have to pay about $3000-$5000 per user to fund an update.
    So, you have chosen 112 as the number of active users and eshropshire's number for development costs.
    07-31-17 11:12 AM
  24. conite's Avatar
    So, you have chosen 112 as the number of active users and eshropshire's number for development costs.
    The cheapest conceivable team to provide minimal support for BB10 going forward would be about 30 to 50 million dollars per year.

    Divide that by about 10,000 users, and you'll get $3,000 to $5,000 each.

    Since that is absolutely absurd, you will end up with zero users.

    Don't forget, full-blown BB10 development was around 10 times that figure. Those are the days when you needed 10 million device sales per year just to break even.
    07-31-17 11:45 AM
  25. DonHB's Avatar
    Here's the rub. If you had a million users willing to pay, and wanted at least a half booty effort, they'd only need to toss around $20 each per year. ART still would sit at 4.3, so all you could do is make a great OS slightly better, and it's glaring limitations would continue to exacerbate.
    This assumption is based on a contract executed years before the likely time that BlackBerry signed its license. When every license for Google Play Services/Framework is negotiated individually by each licensee I am not convinced that BlackBerry can't update the Player themselves. Also, since BlackBerry is no longer producing devices the terms may also not apply or apply differently.

    Should this assumption be correct the Android Player could be open sourced while at the same time be an optional download from BlackBerry World. This would enable the possibility of a an up-to-date runtime from a third party which could be delivered as any other app on BlackBerry World.

    It would be a stretch to believe 100,000 users would pay for minimal advancement, especially since the price per person would now be $200. So maybe, just maybe there are 10,000 hardcore BB10 fans willing to toss in their cash, but at $2,000?

    You are never going to find enough victims willingly embarking on a losing venture, to support an attempt.
    That BB Logo that shows connectivity to BlackBerry's servers suggests that the number of active users is readily known by BlackBerry. With only 100,000 active users (include BBOS for good measure) I would venture a guess that BBW would be long gone.
    07-31-17 11:46 AM
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