[app_Developer]

As others have said, Microsoft put a ton of money into a 3rd platform. They had a massive existing network of 3rd party developers who know their tools, languages and frameworks well. They even have arguably the best dev tools out there.

And yet they still failed. There doesn’t appear to be much demand for a 3rd platform.

[turboron75]

As others have said, Microsoft put a ton of money into a 3rd platform. They had a massive existing network of 3rd party developers who know their tools, languages and frameworks well. They even have arguably the best dev tools out there.

And yet they still failed. There doesn’t appear to be much demand for a 3rd platform.

I liked the Windows phone platform as well. I tried it out briefly but what killed it is what killed BB10, lack of apps or apps that didn't function nearly as well as their iOS/Android counterparts. In both cases, devs didn't support the platforms so they died. I know the other reason for BB10 is that it came out far too late, when Android and iOS were firmly entrenched and had app stores with hundreds of thousands of apps.

In 2017, BlackBerry said they were going to support BB10 for two more years. Now they're extending support again because there are a lot of loyal users. There are millions of users. They've got QNX in over 120 million cars. They know how to develop an OS. I don't think it wouldn't be feasible to port it over to phone with some rework, or reuse code. Or take existing BB10 and make it that much better and re-release it as BB11.

I think there is a huge demand for a third OS. I've never been a fan of iOS, which rips off most of it's features from either Android or BB (gestures on the iPhone X and up series are pretty much ripped off from BB). I'm growing to dislike Android more and more. It's so fragmented and unless you have a flagship phone, OS upgrades and security updates usually die off pretty quickly. The Google Play Store is filled with so much garbage. All I want are the essential apps. Apps like banking, social networking and Spotify. I think if a third OS came out with solid essential apps on release, it would gain traction. Look at the Nintendo Switch. When it came out it had barely any games released for it, yet look how popular it is now. Heck, it still doesn't have Netflix on it! If a third OS was released the right way, it would become popular. Maybe the BlackBerry name is tainted too much to make a comeback. Maybe HarmonyOS will be that third OS, since Huawei is a huge company with a lot of resources. I'm looking forward to it and there are a lot of other people excited for it as well. The US is trying to strong arm Huawei and they're having none of it. The US govt. is just upset that Huawei wouldn't provide them a back door to snoop on their own citizens.

[Chuck Finley69]

I liked the Windows phone platform as well. I tried it out briefly but what killed it is what killed BB10, lack of apps or apps that didn't function nearly as well as their iOS/Android counterparts. In both cases, devs didn't support the platforms so they died. I know the other reason for BB10 is that it came out far too late, when Android and iOS were firmly entrenched and had app stores with hundreds of thousands of apps.

In 2017, BlackBerry said they were going to support BB10 for two more years. Now they're extending support again because there are a lot of loyal users. There are millions of users. They've got QNX in over 120 million cars. They know how to develop an OS. I don't think it wouldn't be feasible to port it over to phone with some rework, or reuse code. Or take existing BB10 and make it that much better and re-release it as BB11.

I think there is a huge demand for a third OS. I've never been a fan of iOS, which rips off most of it's features from either Android or BB (gestures on the iPhone X and up series are pretty much ripped off from BB). I'm growing to dislike Android more and more. It's so fragmented and unless you have a flagship phone, OS upgrades and security updates usually die off pretty quickly. The Google Play Store is filled with so much garbage. All I want are the essential apps. Apps like banking, social networking and Spotify. I think if a third OS came out with solid essential apps on release, it would gain traction. Look at the Nintendo Switch. When it came out it had barely any games released for it, yet look how popular it is now. Heck, it still doesn't have Netflix on it! If a third OS was released the right way, it would become popular. Maybe the BlackBerry name is tainted too much to make a comeback. Maybe HarmonyOS will be that third OS, since Huawei is a huge company with a lot of resources. I'm looking forward to it and there are a lot of other people excited for it as well. The US is trying to strong arm Huawei and they're having none of it. The US govt. is just upset that Huawei wouldn't provide them a back door to snoop on their own citizens.

BB semantics are just that. Support wasn’t extended anymore than planned originally. The official EOL date is still 12/31/2019 but no plugs will be pulled and common infrastructure used in other Enterprise products that BB10 users will still be supported. That’s been the plan the whole time. Unique BB10 infrastructure will deprecate over time. It’s same for playbook os and BBOS as well.

There’s no viable demand for third mobile OS as Microsoft has proven. Even their next announced phone will run Android right?

[Platinum_2]

Been a long time since I have visited the BB10 forums.

Can somebody respectfully educate me as to why Blackberry doesn't/can't strike a deal with Google to have Google Services pre-loaded on BB10? The OS can clearly run Android apk's. It seems most potential customers would be those who generally like Android consumer applications, but would like to interact with it through a different OS.

I guess I'm envisioning a BB10 OS device with a rented, official Google Playstore. Blackberry could elect to develop native BB productivity specific apps through their own app world as before, and support them directly and independently, or stick with Android versions. The licensee/hardware maker (TCL, for example) could do VKB or PKB. I think this concept could make for a solid enterprise/business line of devices while also being consumer friendly. A niche concept that might actually work because there is enough uniqueness and distinction to separate from other Android devices?

[app_Developer]

I liked the Windows phone platform as well. I tried it out briefly but what killed it is what killed BB10, lack of apps or apps that didn't function nearly as well as their iOS/Android counterparts. In both cases, devs didn't support the platforms so they died. I know the other reason for BB10 is that it came out far too late,.

Yes, as you said BB10 was too late. But then you seem to suggesting that BB should try again with BB11.

BB11 would be even more late. So why would things be different? Why would developers support BB11 after they clearly didn’t support Windows phones or BB10 phones?

Btw, I was in app development back then and Microsoft paid for the development of our windows app and it still wasn’t worth our time when we saw how few users there were. Our job was to focus on the most important things each sprint and that was always something new or improved for our mainstream users on Android or our upmarket users who were mostly iOS.

[app_Developer]

Been a long time since I have visited the BB10 forums.

Can somebody respectfully educate me as to why Blackberry doesn't/can't strike a deal with Google to have Google Services pre-loaded on BB10? The OS can clearly run Android apk's. It seems most potential customers would be those who generally like Android consumer applications, but would like to interact with it through a different OS.

There are people on fan forums like this who want a different OS. Most people don’t care and don’t even give this a second thought.

The reason BB can’t just license Play Store is because Google has no interest in providing it. The whole point of Play Store is to keep people on the Android platform.

What is the business model for Google renting this store to other companies with so few users? Google wants everyone to be on Android. That’s the whole point of the entire Android line of business (of which Play store is one part)

[joeldf]

Been a long time since I have visited the BB10 forums.

Can somebody respectfully educate me as to why Blackberry doesn't/can't strike a deal with Google to have Google Services pre-loaded on BB10? The OS can clearly run Android apk's. It seems most potential customers would be those who generally like Android consumer applications, but would like to interact with it through a different OS.

I guess I'm envisioning a BB10 OS device with a rented, official Google Playstore. Blackberry could elect to develop native BB productivity specific apps through their own app world as before, and support them directly and independently, or stick with Android versions. The licensee/hardware maker (TCL, for example) could do VKB or PKB. I think this concept could make for a solid enterprise/business line of devices while also being consumer friendly. A niche concept that might actually work because there is enough uniqueness and distinction to separate from other Android devices?

Google's requirements to have the Play Store and Services on a device prohibited a "forked" version of android - which is what the runtime in BB10 is. The runtime isn't even the full OS - just an emulator. At the time that BB10 was being actively developed, Google required OEMs to be part of the OHA to get Play Services certification. RIM (which they were still called at the time) was not part of that, so they didn't get anything. As the corporate name changed to BlackBerry, and BB10 was released, running android apps was not the original end goal. Running android was just a temporary means to try to get developers on board - they could port their android apps into .bar wrappers to load into BB10 from BlackBerry World, and the runtime would let it run.

When it became clear that developers were not clamoring to BB10 as hoped, BB unlocked the runtime to allow direct .apk file installs without having to be ported to a .bar wrapper and side-loaded (or loaded from BBW which only installs .bar files). Then, BB made the deal with fellow non-Google Compliant android provider, Amazon, to have the Amazon App Store included in the BB10 OS. Of course, the Amazon Store app had to be included as well.

It wasn't until the development of the Priv that BB made the deal with Google to get Play Services - along with all of Google's required apps, on a device. But, that runs the full Android OS. As part of that deal, Google let BB maintain the runtime in BB10, but BB could not update the runtime past it's current-at-the-time version of 4.3. This was also the time of the draw-down of BB10 development. Even though builds of 10.3.3 were still being worked on after the Priv came out, it wasn't for a lot of new features, and the runtime would forever be stuck at 4.3. BB was really only trying to get that last promised NIAP security certification out.

Android right now is very different from the Jelly Bean days. By the time the Priv launched with Lollipop, the runtime in BB10 was 2 full versions older, and the Priv itself was running an OS one version back as Marshmallow had officially launched one month prior.

And, since there is no active on-going development of the BB10 OS anymore, what's the point in trying to get Google to give BB full Play Services now? The runtime version alone prevents many apps from running now, especially banking apps - many of those requiring 5.0 or higher to run. Many people have complained of android apps sapping their battery life for years now, along with slow and laggy responses in many android apps, and it's not like the hardware is going to magically get better.

So far, Google support is still including Jelly Bean - having dropped Ice Cream Sandwich (4.0) at the beginning of the year, but you can be pretty sure Jelly Bean will be next to be dropped.

[Platinum_2]

@joeldf

Excellent response. My thought was since BB10 is largely bought and paid for, it might now serve as a more compelling market offer for both BB and their partners (TCL, for example). I realize that would require future BB10 development/maintenance.

I was thinking maybe BB would be able to go to Google and say "hey, there are some customers out there that really hate your OS and will probably go iOS. Let us into the Playstore we both can capture these customers along with those who may be unhappy with iOS, but can't fathom adopting an Android OS. You guys can still put your required apps on our OS/devices and all that...."

At this point in the cycle how does Android grow? They basically have to steal users from iOS. This may be a small way to do that. Just thinking out loud.

[app_Developer]

@joeldf

Excellent response. My thought was since BB10 is largely bought and paid for, it might now serve as a more compelling market offer for both BB and their partners (TCL, for example). I realize that would require future BB10 development/maintenance.

I was thinking maybe BB would be able to go to Google and say "hey, there are some customers out there that really hate your OS and will probably go iOS. Let us into the Playstore we both can capture these customers along with those who may be unhappy with iOS, but can't fathom adopting an Android OS. You guys can still put your required apps on our OS/devices and all that...."

At this point in the cycle how does Android grow? They basically have to steal users from iOS. This may be a small way to do that. Just thinking out loud.

First of all I think that pitch would cause some smiles at Google.

But if the pitch is “we have users who refuse to use Android” then the Android team would say ok good luck with that.

It’s like if you and I had hotels next to each other and my hotel had a nice pool and sauna. You could come over and say “my guests hate your hotel and would never stay there so can my guests use your pool while they stay with me? Is that cool?”

[turboron75]

Windows Mobile was a failure because of the lack of apps, not because it was a bad platform. I really liked the platform when I tried it but the lack of essential apps is what killed it for me.

[turboron75]

I think if released correctly with all of the essential apps that most people use, a reinvigorated BlackBerry OS could work and become a contender for a third mobile OS. I would switch back in a heartbeat. I'm tired of the iOS/Android duopoly and a lot of other people are too. I'm waiting for HarmonyOS devices to come out and I'll try one of those.

[Chuck Finley69]

First of all I think that pitch would cause some smiles at Google.

But if the pitch is “we have users who refuse to use Android” then the Android team would say ok good luck with that.

It’s like if you and I had hotels next to each other and my hotel had a nice pool and sauna. You could come over and say “my guests hate your hotel and would never stay there so can my guests use your pool while they stay with me? Is that cool?”

Won’t be amazed that some won’t even get your analogy

[Platinum_2]

It’s like if you and I had hotels next to each other and my hotel had a nice pool and sauna. You could come over and say “my guests hate your hotel and would never stay there so can my guests use your pool while they stay with me? Is that cool?”

No. It's not like that at all, actually. No one would do that.

If you read my post from earlier in this thread you would have seen that nothing I wrote would lead you to draw that conclusion.

I was just trying to keep the conversation lively and thought-provoking since there is little to discuss anymore on CB.

[Platinum_2]

Won’t be amazed that some won’t even get your analogy

I'm just amazed no one reads the thread anymore before posting. It's just as bad as not using the search function.

[eshropshire]

I think if released correctly with all of the essential apps that most people use, a reinvigorated BlackBerry OS could work and become a contender for a third mobile OS. I would switch back in a heartbeat. I'm tired of the iOS/Android duopoly and a lot of other people are too. I'm waiting for HarmonyOS devices to come out and I'll try one of those.

What do you think BlackBerry and Microsoft tried to do for years. Microsoft spent many Billions of dollars and BlackBerry spent over a billion trying to do the same thing both had zero success. All of this was during a time of major growth in the Smartphone market. Today the market is mature.

As someone who runs a software division in a major enterprise software developer I can tell you we have zero, in fact less than zero interest in supporting another OS. Dropping support for BB10 and Win Mobile a few years ago saved my division money and helped us deliver a much better mobile experience to our Android and iOS users.

Maybe you missed the big announcement from Microsoft this week in choosing Android as their mobile os. “The operating system is no longer the most important layer for us,” was the message from Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella yesterday (Oct 2nd). So while Microsoft is working with Google to better support MS services and with Samsung to better support Microsoft and having Nadella participate in their latest phone launch. You think small BlackBerry could convince Google that their OS that is running on 87% of all smartphones, is a bad OS.

Sorry you don't like Android, but I and millions of others love Android. I travel a lot in my job and my Android is my main business device. I have major applications I use some built by my company that I have to use and make my job manageable on the road and throughout every day.

[eshropshire]

I think if released correctly with all of the essential apps that most people use, a reinvigorated BlackBerry OS could work and become a contender for a third mobile OS. I would switch back in a heartbeat. I'm tired of the iOS/Android duopoly and a lot of other people are too. I'm waiting for HarmonyOS devices to come out and I'll try one of those.

If you and the others here believe there is a viable market for a 3rd OS built around a rebuilt BB10 then go for it. Create a business plan, and meet with some investors. Right now many investment funds are looking for the next big thing. I have several good friends who are in this business. Many have built some very successful businesses that have made hundreds of millions of dollars.

I keep hearing people here say that BlackBerry Limited or TCL could do this if they were just willing to invest millions. TCL has already started flatly they are not interested in BB10. BlackBerry Limited has moved on and will never get back into mobile. They have stated their willingness to license BB10.

Here is the opportunity. Create a business plan that demonstrates convincingly how by licensing BB10 that you can make inverstors a whole lot of money with BB10. Don't tell me this is not possible, I keep reading posts from people here who are trying to convice us so I assume you believe in what you are saying. I know many friends who started with nothing but a good idea and a strong business plan that are now very wealthy. Keep us informed on your progress.

[Laura Knotek]

Windows Mobile was a failure because of the lack of apps, not because it was a bad platform. I really liked the platform when I tried it but the lack of essential apps is what killed it for me.

Windows Mobile failed despite the fact that Microsoft offered far more monetary incentives to developers than BlackBerry did. If Microsoft was unable to create a viable third mobile operating system, then it is doubtful that any other small player will succeed in the current market. That could change in the future, but I don't foresee it happening any time soon.

[elfabio80]

Windows Mobile failed despite the fact that Microsoft offered far more monetary incentives to developers than BlackBerry did. If Microsoft was unable to create a viable third mobile operating system, then it is doubtful that any other small player will succeed in the current market. That could change in the future, but I don't foresee it happening any time soon.

Microsoft failed with WM10, because the platform was also full of bugs. Although nice that see, WM10 was always a bit of disaster. Win Mobile 8.1 had important numbers....specially in Europe.

[turboron75]

BlackBerry was too little too late. They rested on their laurels for far too long and people jumped ship. BB10 should have come out about 2-3 years before it did. I think the market is ready for a third OS again though. A lot of people have duopoly fatigue. I certainly do. BB10 would still be a viable OS if it had dev support. But no, devs just care about making more profit than actually meeting the needs of their users. There are still millions of BB10 users, even with their very limited app selection. The platform is rock solid and the devices are virtually indestructible. Plus typing on a keyboard is far better than typing on glass. Going by my Keyone experience, the new hardware is garbage.

Yes Android is on "87% of all smartphones" but look at how much that market is fragmented. There is far too much fragmentation on the Android side of things (something Apple does much better than Android). Android is a free-for-all and manufacturers drop support for older phones far too quickly. They release 50 different models in one year and drop support immediately for 90% of them because they're low-mid range phones. They'd rather sell you a new phone every year (which is ridiculous) than keep your old device secure. Over 90% of the Android devices on the market have an unsecure or outdated OS. One thing that Apple does far better is they usually keep phones up to date for about 5 years, sometimes more. If another company like Huawei comes in with their HarmonyOS on their devices, has all of the essential apps and followed Apple's model, they could seriously upset the duopoly. I'm going to try one of their devices when they come out.

[Chuck Finley69]

BlackBerry was too little too late. They rested on their laurels for far too long and people jumped ship. BB10 should have come out about 2-3 years before it did. I think the market is ready for a third OS again though. A lot of people have duopoly fatigue. I certainly do. BB10 would still be a viable OS if it had dev support. But no, devs just care about making more profit than actually meeting the needs of their users. There are still millions of BB10 users, even with their very limited app selection. The platform is rock solid and the devices are virtually indestructible. Plus typing on a keyboard is far better than typing on glass. Going by my Keyone experience, the new hardware is garbage.

Yes Android is on "87% of all smartphones" but look at how much that market is fragmented. There is far too much fragmentation on the Android side of things (something Apple does much better than Android). Android is a free-for-all and manufacturers drop support for older phones far too quickly. They release 50 different models in one year and drop support immediately for 90% of them because they're low-mid range phones. They'd rather sell you a new phone every year (which is ridiculous) than keep your old device secure. Over 90% of the Android devices on the market have an unsecure or outdated OS. One thing that Apple does far better is they usually keep phones up to date for about 5 years, sometimes more. If another company like Huawei comes in with their HarmonyOS on their devices, has all of the essential apps and followed Apple's model, they could seriously upset the duopoly. I'm going to try one of their devices when they come out.

Only you and whatever adds up to 1% of the market has duopoly fatigue. Even if that’s 10 million users, it’s fragmented too much between Windows, BlackBerry and whatever hobby OS are currently used. Find single 5% or 50 million that all can agree to make your statement realistic.

Even the sanctioned companies don’t want another mobile OS since the ecosystem support wouldn’t be guaranteed. Literally Android/iOS duopoly would become a different representative duopoly yet still a duopoly. Therefore, risk isn’t worth the reward. That’s why even Microsoft quit the game.

[Chuck Finley69]

Microsoft failed with WM10, because the platform was also full of bugs. Although nice that see, WM10 was always a bit of disaster. Win Mobile 8.1 had important numbers....specially in Europe.

Windows regardless of version has been doomed to failure. It’s the same in the desktop arena. Only way for Google to succeed is to eliminate Apple or Microsoft because again developers are happy supporting two OS for maximum revenue and minimum expense goals for maximum profits.

[Elephant_Canyon]

I think the market is ready for a third OS again though. A lot of people have duopoly fatigue.

Do you have any citations or empirical evidence to back up that statement?

[TgeekB]

Do you have any citations or empirical evidence to back up that statement?

Of course not.

[custmblt]

I am currently using a non blackberry device. bring me a new full screen bb10 or full screen B.B.Android device and I am back just like that...