12-20-13 03:57 PM
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  1. mademan miyahu's Avatar
    I live in South Africa and can tell you for a fact straight that every single one of my friends regardless of income uses a bb on a bis plan. We pay 60 rand every month which is $8, 5 equivalent and cheap as compared to using data which is charged basically as 1 Rand per mb. Its fair to all this side unless your billing is handled by your employer. We save and survive it doesn't mean that living in the first world is living large, wr u can save the saving aspect will not change because of global positioning. B10 won't sale much in S.A.
    rjpawlak likes this.
    02-04-13 12:07 AM
  2. mjolnirgs's Avatar
    Or just switch to using Outlook.com from Microsoft and get free push through Activesync. Or deal with waiting a few minutes to get an email. Or pay Google to get Activesync through them.
    Valid options, however, no free service let's you use your own email domains that I know of. IMAP mail is also an option, I use it for my wife's iPhone, the wait is annoying, but the data usage is way more than the BIS service on the Blackberries. Waiting for mail is also no good when your network monitoring system sends alerts, I often am alerted of, and fix problems before customers notice, not so easy when you wait 5 minutes for your device to poll the server.

    So whenever BlackBerry decides to EOL BBOS7, and BIS with it, I will be forced to spend money to replace the lost functionality. Whenever a company forces me to pay to replace functionality I had, they rarely get said funds, I move on to somebody else.
    02-04-13 12:13 AM
  3. Omnitech's Avatar
    I currently run my own e-mail server, and have it configured to push mail when it comes in, onward to the BB BIS servers, which then push it to my phone. True end to end push mail that I have been doing for 10 years now, on a very low budget. If I upgrade to BB10..
    Not to nitpick but technically that's not push - RIM just keeps pounding on your POP3 server continuously which gives you the impression that it's push, but it isn't. Lots and lots of wasted resources (on RIM's side) constantly polling your POP3 server are what makes that work.


    Gone.. I'll have to purchase Exchange or some other mail server like Zimbra that provides the active sync protocol, or pay for an online service (yuk)
    Not really. All you need is a provider or server that supports IMAP IDLE, which actually is way closer to real "push email" than your constantly-polled POP3 server ever was. And IMAP doesn't suffer from all sorts of other POP3 problems and limitations either. There are tons of free servers out there that support IMAP, especially if you don't need a ton of user accounts. (All the usual open-source stuff, plus a lot of vendors of commercial MTAs offer free small-user-count versions of their servers)

    Technically if RIM's BB10 email client supports IMAP IDLE, it shouldn't matter whether they claim a minimum 15-minute poll frequency, because IMAP IDLE is a persistent TCP connection that initiates a new-mail notification on-demand from the server side.


    Without these unique selling points that used to differentiate BB from iPhone and Android, I see no reason to go through all the pain of migrating all the content and apps, Since now BB10 is all just the same thing as iOS and Android. With a different look to it. on an average device.
    A rather narrowly-drawn analysis to put it lightly. There are many, many things that differentiate BB10 from those platforms that have nothing to do with BIS.

    My personal stance basically boils down to:
    • Android: Not interested in Google trying to monetize my confidential data at every turn and vacuum it into the Googleplex. Next.
    • iOS: Not interested in the cult of Jobs. Next.
    • WP8: Not interested in Microsoft's half-baked idea of mobile computing, and pushing of their ecosystem either. Next.


    As an I.T. guy, I really appreciate RIM/BB's approach to security and stewardship of user data. I always found it laughable for example how Android shows you a detailed list (not as detailed as BBOS, though) of all the permissions an app wants to install, but then it's just "accept it all or cancel the install".

    For example, Google Maps on my BBOS 6 device wants all sorts of stupid permissions to run - like access to my contacts and phone number. Is this a joke? I have to let them have access to my entire contacts list in order to tell me where the next freeway onramp is? So in BBOS 6 I just revoke the permissions from the app I don't want to give it. In the case of Google Maps, it gripes every time I launch it begging for more permissions but I just ignore that (I could permanently ignore it but I like seeing the warnings), and it does the job regardless.

    As far as I know, that isn't possible with ANY other mobile platform.
    mtint, rjpawlak and PatrickMJS like this.
    02-04-13 01:58 AM
  4. anon3700711's Avatar
    BIS isn't killed off. It still plays a roll in BB10. Services like BBM, BBProtect, etc. all go through the BIS.

    We're going to do another post further clarifying the roll of BIS in BB10. the big thing is that you don't need a special data plan now to use BB services... but the architecture is still being put to use in a big way.

    Maybe they need to rebrand BIS to BlackBerry Cloud Services or something like that.
    But it is essentially killed off. Unless I can still use my unlimited full feature BIS data plan, which is unique here as only BlackBerrys offer unlimited on-device browsing (through BIS), then BIS is dead.
    02-04-13 05:57 AM
  5. Big V 1978's Avatar
    I have to agree with the Author.

    Here in South Africa the data cost is enormous and by removing the BIS will result in less people adopting the new Z10 and later Q10.

    I am due for an Upgrade since October, but it seems I will have to go for the older OS.7.1 to still get a good deal.

    So I waited in vain for the Z10 !
    02-04-13 06:27 AM
  6. abhibh's Avatar
    BIS isn't killed off. It still plays a roll in BB10. Services like BBM, BBProtect, etc. all go through the BIS.

    We're going to do another post further clarifying the roll of BIS in BB10. the big thing is that you don't need a special data plan now to use BB services... but the architecture is still being put to use in a big way.

    Maybe they need to rebrand BIS to BlackBerry Cloud Services or something like that.
    But it is essentially killed off. Unless I can still use my unlimited full feature BIS data plan, which is unique here as only BlackBerrys offer unlimited on-device browsing (through BIS), then BIS is dead.
    I agree with CatlinFD

    BIS unlimited actually meant unlimited emails, unlimited messaging over bbm, gtalk, msn, yahoo etc. unlimited photos upload or browsing on FB / Twitter or any application virtually. Now with limited plans its going to eat the data.
    02-04-13 07:14 AM
  7. mamak111's Avatar
    This stinks.
    BIS encompassed BBM, on device browsing, Appworld downloads and app data. In South Africa this was charged at ZAR60.00 (about US$6.75) per month. This was great news as we don't have unlimmited mobile data plans over here and mobile data is relatively expensive compared to US/Europe. This is the main reason BB did so well in countries such as ours and dare I say is more popular than the IPhone(guesstimate). IPhone/Android users had to pay for all of their data usage. While this made BB attractive to consumers IMO it made BB financialy unattractive to cellular networks worldwide. They would earn less revenue due to the inclusive nature of BIS. The average BIS subscriber probably uses more data than his subscription fee would otherwise entitle him to. Vodaphone even went as far as capping BB users' data to 100MB/month. Once again IMO this is a reason networks seem to offer more attractive deals on other handsets as opposed to BBs. Now it seems to appease the networks BIS is being dropped. This may be a catch 22 for RIM but unless the app count (keep in mind quality) and mainstream support is nothing short of extraordinary as well as features and usability is practical, RIM may just be patching up the hole in their ship with paper towels.
    Don't get me wrong I am a 100% BB fan and would rather use a Nokia(sic) before an IPhone(more sic), but only inclusive BBM just won't cut it with majority of users. Alot of us use the browser as well on a daily basis and lets not forget about social networking as well.
    I haven't seen a Z10 as yet but have already pre-ordered mine(due for release end Feb in SA). When I heard that BIS was being dropped on the Z10, I thought that maybe better to stick with my 9800 and PB combo.
    I don't know if RIM thinks that networks will push more deals on the Z10/Q10 since they will now be bringing in similar revenues as other makes. Most people I know chose BB because of the BBM and BIS afordability.
    Dropping BIS has definately got to be due to pressure from the networks.

    And yes you're right I am a bit of a conspiracy theorist.

    Also posted here: http://forums.crackberry.com/general...2/#post7931749
    02-04-13 07:41 AM
  8. rjpawlak's Avatar
    Put me in the category of those lamenting the state of BIS (non)support in BB10. It sucks for people in places like Indonesia, where the networks are strained to breaking, and it sucks for the person on an inexpensive capped data plan, or folks that travel overseas and want to minimize the obscene roaming charges that the carriers levy.

    I wanted two things from BB10: continued support for BIS, and the ability *not* to have all my personal data in the cloud. If I wanted that, I'd go with android. RIM/Blackberry needs to rethink their position on this one. Furthermore, I cannot believe RIM would abandon the revenue stream they get from BIS so easily. They may be shooting themselves in the foot with this decision.
    02-04-13 09:03 AM
  9. MobileMadness002's Avatar
    Can one still get BIS if they want?
    Yes. If your using pre bb10 device. If your using a bb10 device then no.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
    02-04-13 09:08 AM
  10. mjolnirgs's Avatar
    Not to nitpick but technically that's not push - RIM just keeps pounding on your POP3 server continuously which gives you the impression that it's push, but it isn't. Lots and lots of wasted resources (on RIM's side) constantly polling your POP3 server are what makes that work.
    Your assumption about my setup is incorrect. While most people set up their BIS service that way, mine is not. I do not configure my BIS service to check my server for mail. I've always thought it was dumb to have BIS hammer away at my server, so my server uses a program called procmail that automatically forwards incoming mail to my @<provider>.blackberry.net address. True Push.

    Not really. All you need is a provider or server that supports IMAP IDLE, which actually is way closer to real "push email" than your constantly-polled POP3 server ever was. And IMAP doesn't suffer from all sorts of other POP3 problems and limitations either. There are tons of free servers out there that support IMAP, especially if you don't need a ton of user accounts. (All the usual open-source stuff, plus a lot of vendors of commercial MTAs offer free small-user-count versions of their servers)

    Technically if RIM's BB10 email client supports IMAP IDLE, it shouldn't matter whether they claim a minimum 15-minute poll frequency, because IMAP IDLE is a persistent TCP connection that initiates a new-mail notification on-demand from the server side.
    My server does support this, and it is not all it's cracked up to be, it burns battery on the device maintaining that connection, and uses data even when no mail is being transferred, since the two must exchange data packets to keep the connection open, small as it is, it's still data, and it adds up 24 X 7 X 365. Even when I'm at my desk, 10 feet from that mail server, new mail hits my Blackberry first, before my IMAP email client picks it up, even though procmail drops it in my inbox and on the BlackBerry servers at the same instant.
    Last edited by mjolnirgs; 02-04-13 at 10:10 AM. Reason: edited for clarity and to be less abrasive
    02-04-13 09:16 AM
  11. joeldf's Avatar
    Yes. If your using pre bb10 device. If your using a bb10 device then no.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
    Not according to a post from Kevin yesterday (don't know if it was this thread or one of the 20 other threads on this very subject). Apparently, BB10 CAN use BIS. He promised to post more on this later - hopefully on the main CrackBerry page.

    This is different from "required". And obviously, it's been established that it is not required.

    But that's not the question anymore.
    02-04-13 09:38 AM
  12. jenkitp's Avatar
    So my question is with BB10, will we not have direct push email anymore? That is one of the selling points for me to keep BlackBerry.
    02-04-13 01:01 PM
  13. Rob Hurd's Avatar
    Here we go guys, here is a good article, BIS still lives but we just don;t have to pay for it. BB10 uses parts of BIS still.

    BIS deals won
    02-04-13 01:25 PM
  14. ssbtech's Avatar
    Or just switch to using Outlook.com from Microsoft and get free push through Activesync. Or deal with waiting a few minutes to get an email. Or pay Google to get Activesync through them.
    It's not the speed people are worried about (15 minute email polling really isn't much), it's the function of BIS people are upset about losing.

    People are suggesting some pretty convoluted workarounds to the loss of BIS.
    02-04-13 01:56 PM
  15. ssbtech's Avatar
    Here we go guys, here is a good article, BIS still lives but we just don;t have to pay for it. BB10 uses parts of BIS still.

    BIS deals won
    It lives, but not for data compression or any email services. It's a stripped down neutered version of BIS that offers very little benefit to the consumer.
    02-04-13 02:03 PM
  16. joeldf's Avatar
    Here we go guys, here is a good article, BIS still lives but we just don;t have to pay for it. BB10 uses parts of BIS still.

    BIS deals won
    That doesn't help explain how it will work in the U.S. where we don't pay for BIS in the first place.
    02-04-13 02:21 PM
  17. raremage's Avatar
    I do not understand why they can not jsut offer BIS as an extra for people that really want it!
    Because the architecture of BB10 is completely different from OS7 and earlier. It doesn't require nor support BIS.

    It brings the communications forward, whether people like the change or not. Yes, there are some potentially negative aspects, but the overall results are an improvement. And yes, it will be very similar to the way iOS and Android work. Data usage will be comparable.
    rjedge54 likes this.
    02-04-13 03:38 PM
  18. Omnitech's Avatar
    I wanted two things from BB10: continued support for BIS, and the ability *not* to have all my personal data in the cloud.
    While I'm sympathetic to the concept of not trusting my valuable/confidential data to some random "cloud" (I'm rather militant about that myself in many ways), I'm curious what you mean about that specifically.

    Because, for example, whenever one hands over login credentials to any company that runs a service that accesses their account(s) in order to download or view that data on some secondary device or portal, they are basically giving them the key to access whatever they want of theirs that traverses that system.

    Always amazes me how organizations like Facebook or Google hound people for all their external account login credentials to "conveniently see that stuff on our service" or "populate your contact list", which is pretty much the same as handing over the keys to your car and your house to some "free newspaper delivery service" so they can come and go into your house or drive your car whenever they feel like it.


    Your assumption about my setup is incorrect. While most people set up their BIS service that way, mine is not. I do not configure my BIS service to check my server for mail. I've always thought it was dumb to have BIS hammer away at my server, so my server uses a program called procmail that automatically forwards incoming mail to my @<provider>.blackberry.net address. True Push.
    If I'm not mistaken BIS only supports a single blackberry.net address per device, right? So that would mean that you're forwarding traffic from potentially several different accounts into a single blackberry.net address, correct? At least for me, that wouldn't be workable. Or do you really run a dedicated email server for just a single email address? (Were you the person who wrote earlier you were using this in your company?)


    Even when I'm at my desk, 10 feet from that mail server, new mail hits my Blackberry first, before my IMAP email client picks it up, even though procmail drops it in my inbox and on the BlackBerry servers at the same instant.

    How much of a time differential? If it's significant, I'd guess that your IMAP client is not using IMAP IDLE to pick up new messages. Some IMAP clients (and servers) don't support that mode, or it's not enabled by default. So then it would be up to the polling-frequency setting in your client again.

    I grant you that IMAP uses some data, but it's orders of magnitude smaller than downloading everything over POP3 or even doing small header or partial mail retrievals by default. (Which is essentially what BIS does anyway, at least on my OS6 device - I can't read a large message without having to hit "continue" "continue" "continue" several times.)

    While I certainly understand the BIS cost advantages for people in certain places in the world, I also have a fairly big mental "evil list" of all the limitations that BIS imposes that I for one will not miss. Maximum size of messages, slow message retrieval to the device (esp wrt attachments), inability to see full headers on messages for troubleshooting purposes, and a few other things I can't remember right now. Those things are what drove me to install "LogicMail" on my BBOS 6 device, which provides much more sophisticated functionality than the native BB mail client, with the exception of some OS integration aspects.)

    Last edited by mjolnirgs; Today at 08:10 AM. Reason: edited for clarity and to be less abrasive
    Ah well now you've piqued my curiosity.
    02-04-13 04:12 PM
  19. momofteme's Avatar
    Your assumption about my setup is incorrect. While most people set up their BIS service that way, mine is not. I do not configure my BIS service to check my server for mail. I've always thought it was dumb to have BIS hammer away at my server, so my server uses a program called procmail that automatically forwards incoming mail to my @<provider>.blackberry.net address. True Push.



    My server does support this, and it is not all it's cracked up to be, it burns battery on the device maintaining that connection, and uses data even when no mail is being transferred, since the two must exchange data packets to keep the connection open, small as it is, it's still data, and it adds up 24 X 7 X 365. Even when I'm at my desk, 10 feet from that mail server, new mail hits my Blackberry first, before my IMAP email client picks it up, even though procmail drops it in my inbox and on the BlackBerry servers at the same instant.
    I am certainly not playing at your level here with e-mail servers and so forth, so this may be a dumb question.

    Since you don't have to deal with BIS at all now, can't you just set procmail to forward on to your phone as soon as it hits your server, the same way it was doing to BIS?
    02-04-13 04:31 PM
  20. kevinnugent's Avatar
    That doesn't help explain how it will work in the U.S. where we don't pay for BIS in the first place.
    You did pay. Always. You just didn't know it. Now your carrier will make more money from you. They won't have to pass on a piece of your monthly payment to Blackberry.
    02-04-13 04:34 PM
  21. Omnitech's Avatar
    Since you don't have to deal with BIS at all now, can't you just set procmail to forward on to your phone as soon as it hits your server, the same way it was doing to BIS?
    Yes, but if the BB10 email client is not using BIS for retrieval, you will lose certain features of BIS that some people want, ie "push" email without the overhead and data usage required by a traditional email client. (Some of which can be partially mitigated as I described above, but not duplicated. There are also additional features that non-BIS email clients offer that some of us find useful. Depends on your priorities.)
    02-04-13 04:54 PM
  22. momofteme's Avatar
    I posted this in the differentiation thread below, but wanted to put it here as well......

    I fully understand your position here.

    Slow browsing, no images in that push e-mail, truncated messages, garbled html messages, those are the things you are losing, by losing BIS.

    You would also lose BB completely most likely, the carriers were making more money off android and Iphone, BB had to drop BIS or be shut out by the US carriers at least.

    So it is accurate, that to be more like the other mobile OSes, BB loses some of it's features (BUGS?).
    I am afraid that is the price of progress.
    rden66 likes this.
    02-04-13 04:56 PM
  23. joeldf's Avatar
    Because the architecture of BB10 is completely different from OS7 and earlier. It doesn't require nor support BIS.
    That's not what Kevin said right here in post #110: http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...ml#post7927544 "BIS will still play a roll in a big way..."

    I posted this in the differentiation thread below, but wanted to put it here as well......

    I fully understand your position here.

    Slow browsing, no images in that push e-mail, truncated messages, garbled html messages, those are the things you are losing, by losing BIS.

    You would also lose BB completely most likely, the carriers were making more money off android and Iphone, BB had to drop BIS or be shut out by the US carriers at least.

    So it is accurate, that to be more like the other mobile OSes, BB loses some of it's features (BUGS?).
    I am afraid that is the price of progress.
    Slow browsing, yes. Redirecting around BIS was a great thing for BB to do.

    Trancated emails? Hadn't had one of those in a long time - since the last major BIS update.

    Garbled html messages - never had one of those. Don't know what you're talking about there.

    Images could be loaded if you wanted after the fact - no big deal for me if I wanted to see them - "menu button", "get images".
    02-04-13 06:05 PM
  24. ssbtech's Avatar
    I liked the fact that BIS held images. Too often people have company logos and other crap images in their emails and I don't want or need to see it every time. Less crap for me to look at, less crap wasting my data.
    02-04-13 06:14 PM
  25. momofteme's Avatar
    Yep, just saying.
    02-04-13 07:23 PM
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