05-18-18 12:22 PM
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  1. conite's Avatar
    So, BB10--a piece of software CAUSED RIM/Blackberry to lose Billions of Dollars.

    Not the Mikes, not Heins, or any PERSON who was in control of decisions, and choices...an inanimate thing is the CAUSE.

    That's irrational.
    T
    Omg.

    Fine, the BB10 development program for which they received no compensation, was the cause of the massive losses at BlackBerry.
    04-19-18 01:02 PM
  2. KAM1138's Avatar
    Humans chose to support Android/IOS over BB10. It should have never been developed as late in the game as it was for at least a dozen reasons. Even if BB owned Android in 2005 it wouldn't have mattered. They never had the money to pour into the ecosystem and wage the battle with Apple or Microsoft let alone both at same time. BB only significant revenue and profit stream depended on BBOS staying in place as long as possible. For the former founders and former executives of BB, the creation and development of BB10 was a success and did exactly what it was supposed to do, buy time so insider company shares could be unloaded legally...
    Thank you--fair enough. Pretty harsh read on the Former Executives of BB, but I can't specifically argue against your statement.

    Point is--lots of human decisions led to Blackberry losing Billions of dollars.
    04-19-18 01:07 PM
  3. KAM1138's Avatar
    Omg.

    Fine, the BB10 development program for which they received no compensation, was the cause of the massive losses at BlackBerry.
    You can feign outrage (or perhaps it isn't feigned) but I think your perspective is really off. You seem to be actually blaming a product, instead of admitting the simple fact--that Blackberry executives made MANY poor choices (in retrospect).

    For some reason, you seem to want to keep blaming a product that is at best the RESULT of bad decisions, and at best ONE factor in Blackberry's failures.

    But to you, the ONLY reasonable answer (100% positive) is that BB10 is the CAUSE.

    I simply don't find that to be reasonable.
    04-19-18 01:14 PM
  4. conite's Avatar
    You can feign outrage (or perhaps it isn't feigned) but I think your perspective is really off. You seem to be actually blaming a product, instead of admitting the simple fact--that Blackberry executives made MANY poor choices (in retrospect).

    For some reason, you seem to want to keep blaming a product that is at best the RESULT of bad decisions, and at best ONE factor in Blackberry's failures.

    But to you, the ONLY reasonable answer (100% positive) is that BB10 is the CAUSE.

    I simply don't find that to be reasonable.
    Blah, blah, blah. Once again:

    $600+$0 versus $600+$xxxxx. "Before" versus "proposal".

    Talk until you're blue in the face , or use whatever nomenclature you wish, but it's an added price precisely matching the cost of OS development.
    04-19-18 01:18 PM
  5. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Thank you--fair enough. Pretty harsh read on the Former Executives of BB, but I can't specifically argue against your statement.

    Point is--lots of human decisions led to Blackberry losing Billions of dollars.
    Not harsh read. They did what they needed to do for shareholders alongside them. Revenue stream needed to be maintained for as long as possible for all shareholders. All shareholders had 3-5 years to liquidate holdings. Understanding that BB10 was a huge Gamble and the competition was years ahead was understood by mobile industry participants and their related counterparts. The former executives were good at selling a vision twice, original BBOS and BB10. They had nothing to lose and were legal to perfection. There plan could have possibly succeeded had Android or IOS failed in their execution. Microsoft kept hoping for that failure as well.

    You keep stating that BB executives made poor decisions. I would argue they made great decisions with the situation they found themselves in. Carriers and competitors, all exponentially larger, all had the similar interests of BB not succeeding with existing business model and BB not having the level of resources needed to compete in the new level of competition.
    04-19-18 01:23 PM
  6. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Thank you--fair enough. Pretty harsh read on the Former Executives of BB, but I can't specifically argue against your statement.

    Point is--lots of human decisions led to Blackberry losing Billions of dollars.
    One of the points missing in all of this, is that in making the right wine, it needs to age a little or a lot, depending on what you are trying to make....it costs the farmer a lot to store that wine with no sales when starting from scratch/from savings, until the product is fully ripe.....BlackBerry, the farmer needed a much larger financial backing and a little more time to reach that critical point to make bb10 succeed. How much is Tesla making? How long did Android go through its particularly ugly teething before anyone made much money from it? Ugghh! BlackBerry opened the wine barrels far too early..out of necessity it seems..it spoiled the wine. Maybe they planted the new bb10 vines a tad bitlate...but I don't think it was too late, just not willing or able to go into enough debt to get the needed momentum. Though the telcos were signalling they needed something yesterday. Essential it was a project that needed to lose more money before it would start recouping.
    04-19-18 01:28 PM
  7. KAM1138's Avatar
    If you're talking about NOW, today, of $xxxxx being an additional cost, then that's true. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that it would take Some amount of money (your number is 1 billion).
    So, the Second term represent OS costs--correct?

    So, it was never $600+$0--or at least that's highly unlikely.

    Unless your claim is that Blackberry's INTENTION (from the start) was to never recoup costs for OS development, I think that's highly unlikely.
    Why wouldn't they have planned to cover the software development costs--just like EVERY OTHER COST.

    Do you believe that when determining the cost of BB10 phones that they utterly ignored the cost of OS development and intended to incur losses of that amount?

    No--they set a cost, assuming a number of units, which would pay for EVERY part of the cost for the endeavor as a whole. The sales were just poor.
    04-19-18 01:29 PM
  8. KAM1138's Avatar
    Not harsh read. They did what they needed to do for shareholders alongside them. Revenue stream needed to be maintained for as long as possible for all shareholders. All shareholders had 3-5 years to liquidate holdings. Understanding that BB10 was a huge Gamble and the competition was years ahead was understood by mobile industry participants and their related counterparts. The former executives were good at selling a vision twice, original BBOS and BB10. They had nothing to lose and were legal to perfection. There plan could have possibly succeeded had Android or IOS failed in their execution. Microsoft kept hoping for that failure as well.

    You keep stating that BB executives made poor decisions. I would argue they made great decisions with the situation they found themselves in. Carriers and competitors, all exponentially larger, all had the similar interests of BB not succeeding with existing business model and BB not having the level of resources needed to compete in the new level of competition.
    I think you're getting into other areas here, but briefly. When I talk about poor decisions, I'm working from the assumption that the goal was for a company to create and sell a product(s) and make money doing it.

    What you seem to be suggesting is that they had no intention of doing that. I can't speak to that one way or the other.
    04-19-18 01:31 PM
  9. KAM1138's Avatar
    One of the points missing in all of this, is that in making the right wine, it needs to age a little or a lot, depending on what you are trying to make....it costs the farmer a lot to store that wine with no sales when starting from scratch/from savings, until the product is fully ripe.....BlackBerry, the farmer needed a much larger financial backing and a little more time to reach that critical point to make bb10 succeed. How much is Tesla making? How long did Android go through its particularly ugly teething before anyone made much money from it? Ugghh! BlackBerry opened the wine barrels far too early..out of necessity it seems..it spoiled the wine. Maybe they planted the new bb10 vines a tad bitlate...but I don't think it was too late, just not willing or able to go into enough debt to get the needed momentum. Though the telcos were signalling they needed something yesterday. Essential it was a project that needed to lose more money before it would start recouping.
    So, again, lots of missteps. Not a product "breaking" or not working for example.
    Maybe it wasn't the right product chosen. Maybe the time chosen was not gonna work out, but those are different things.
    04-19-18 01:33 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    If you're talking about NOW, today, of $xxxxx being an additional cost, then that's true. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that it would take Some amount of money (your number is 1 billion).
    So, the Second term represent OS costs--correct?

    So, it was never $600+$0--or at least that's highly unlikely.

    Unless your claim is that Blackberry's INTENTION (from the start) was to never recoup costs for OS development, I think that's highly unlikely.
    Why wouldn't they have planned to cover the software development costs--just like EVERY OTHER COST.

    Do you believe that when determining the cost of BB10 phones that they utterly ignored the cost of OS development and intended to incur losses of that amount?

    No--they set a cost, assuming a number of units, which would pay for EVERY part of the cost for the endeavor as a whole. The sales were just poor.
    I already went through the math above.

    By enjoying economies of scale in production, they were hoping to gather $50 per device to cover OS development. That never happened as sales were abysmal - so they never collected a dime. The customer therefore contributed nothing towards the OS and effectively got it for free.

    Under this new proposal, the customer would still have to pay the same $600 per device - just for the hardware - as they did before. But this time, BlackBerry will want to be reimbursed for the software - and then some.
    Last edited by conite; 04-19-18 at 01:44 PM.
    04-19-18 01:33 PM
  11. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Now of course bb10 eventually produced an excellent quality wine, it just didn't have the resources to get it into peoples hands, when the market was spooked about rampant rumours about its real quality, and some early teething problems.
    04-19-18 01:33 PM
  12. conite's Avatar
    Now of course bb10 eventually produced an excellent quality wine, it just didn't have the resources to get it into peoples hands, when the market was spooked about rampant rumours about its real quality, and some early teething problems.
    Excellent as in not able to run any of the mainstream consumer and business apps that most people required?

    Don't get me wrong, I loved BB10. But peek and flow isn't as great as it sounds when you can't peek and flow to or with anything you actually need.
    MC_A_DOT likes this.
    04-19-18 01:40 PM
  13. danfrancisco's Avatar
    Excellent as in not able to run any of the mainstream consumer and business apps that most people required?
    Excellent would have been if they could keep their ART up to date and allow us to have full access to Google Play Services. So basically what we have now with the KEYone... with a slightly less polished version of the Hub. But hey, I can live with that over having NO BlackBerry devices at all.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to my pros and cons list for importing a bronze dual SIM KEYone with the Arabic keyboard!
    04-19-18 01:46 PM
  14. conite's Avatar

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to my pros and cons list for importing a bronze dual SIM KEYone with the Arabic keyboard!
    Seems to be a full-time job! Lol.

    Good luck.

    Personally, all of the extra letters/symbols would bug me after a while.
    04-19-18 01:48 PM
  15. KAM1138's Avatar
    I already went through the math above.

    By enjoying economies of scale in production, they were hoping to gather $50 per device to cover OS development. That never happened as sales were abysmal - so they never collected a dime. The customer therefore contributed nothing towards the OS and effectively got it for free.
    Well, what you're admitting here is that the cost of BB10 was intended to be $50. So, every customer that paid for a BB10 phone was paying $50 towards OS development. That would mean that $550 was going towards other things.

    So, it isn't $600+$0 is it?

    Further, I'm guessing that their business plan established that $50 value on the entire estimated amount.

    You say they never collected a dime. No--they collected $50 per phone sold--Because THAT is how they priced the phones--according to your example you just stated.

    Again--you want to fabricate a retroactive distribution of money, because they failed to reach their goals, when you've just admitted that isn't how they determined pricing at all.

    No--Each phone sold included $50 in costs to pay for the OS. If that value is right--then THAT is what each consumer paid towards the OS costs.

    Why is this so hard for you to admit?

    You're manipulating numbers to claim the OS is "Free." You've got your reasons for wanting to do so--great. That's not how the price was set--by your own admission and example.
    04-19-18 01:48 PM
  16. conite's Avatar
    Well, what you're admitting here is that the cost of BB10 was intended to be $50. So, every customer that paid for a BB10 phone was paying $50 towards OS development. That would mean that $550 was going towards other things.

    So, it isn't $600+$0 is it?

    Further, I'm guessing that their business plan established that $50 value on the entire estimated amount.

    You say they never collected a dime. No--they collected $50 per phone sold--Because THAT is how they priced the phones--according to your example you just stated.

    Again--you want to fabricate a retroactive distribution of money, because they failed to reach their goals, when you've just admitted that isn't how they determined pricing at all.

    No--Each phone sold included $50 in costs to pay for the OS. If that value is right--then THAT is what each consumer paid towards the OS costs.

    Why is this so hard for you to admit?

    You're manipulating numbers to claim the OS is "Free." You've got your reasons for wanting to do so--great. That's now how the price was set--by your own admission.
    You're not reading again.

    They didn't enjoy the economies of scale that would have allowed them to collect the $50 - so they collected nothing.

    So it was, and still would be $600.
    04-19-18 01:51 PM
  17. danfrancisco's Avatar
    Seems to be a full-time job! Lol.

    Good luck.

    Personally, all of the extra letters/symbols would bug me after a while.
    It is a full-time job! One that has consumed my productivity for the past 72 hours!

    I think that if the extra letters/symbols were to get to me, by then the Athena will be out so I'll be obsessing over the next BB device.

    Great, now I have to move Arabic symbols back onto the cons list... (no offense to anyone in UAE who sees value in them!)
    04-19-18 01:54 PM
  18. KAM1138's Avatar
    Now of course bb10 eventually produced an excellent quality wine, it just didn't have the resources to get it into peoples hands, when the market was spooked about rampant rumours about its real quality, and some early teething problems.
    I would agree--I think BB10 is the best OS I've ever used (although I really loved WebOS). I've not used the latest versions of Android, but last I tried, it didn't come close (for my liking).

    I'm personally really interested in the KeyONE hardware (excepting the Android hard keys) which ruin the whole thing (for me). But Android is a huge downside for me.
    04-19-18 01:56 PM
  19. danfrancisco's Avatar
    I'm personally really interested in the KeyONE hardware (excepting the Android hard keys) which ruin the whole thing (for me). But Android is a huge downside for me.
    At first I felt that the capacitive keys were so 2013. But I've actually come to love them. For me, they work great as a launching pad for swipe gestures. When I swipe up on the home button, it takes me home. When I swipe up on the square button, it takes me to all open apps. Not exactly the same as BB10 swipe gestures, but flows well for me over pressing a button.
    04-19-18 02:12 PM
  20. KAM1138's Avatar
    You're not reading again.

    They didn't enjoy the economies of scale that would have allowed them to collect the $50 - so they collected nothing.

    So it was, and still would be $600.
    No, I'm simply not agreeing with your fallacy. You made an unsupported statement, and for whatever reason aren't willing to admit that it was an overreach.

    So, instead you engage in fantasy--that Blackberry actually DID separate out their sales revenue in such a way that prevented it from covering costs associated with OS development.
    If you have evidence or an indication that they DID separate that money somehow then go ahead and state it.
    If not, then stop pretending like you're doing anything except doubling down on your unsupported claims.
    04-19-18 02:12 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    No, I'm simply not agreeing with your fallacy. You made an unsupported statement, and for whatever reason aren't willing to admit that it was an overreach.

    So, instead you engage in fantasy--that Blackberry actually DID separate out their sales revenue in such a way that prevented it from covering costs associated with OS development.
    If you have evidence or an indication that they DID separate that money somehow then go ahead and state it.
    If not, then stop pretending like you're doing anything except doubling down on your unsupported claims.
    I'm not going to teach you accounting, so I guess I'll have to give up.

    But look up "costs of goods sold" when you have a chance.
    04-19-18 02:13 PM
  22. KAM1138's Avatar
    At first I felt that the capacitive keys were so 2013. But I've actually come to love them. For me, they work great as a launching pad for swipe gestures. When I swipe up on the home button, it takes me home. When I swipe up on the square button, it takes me to all open apps. Not exactly the same as BB10 swipe gestures, but flows well for me over pressing a button.
    Yeah, I do think that's a really cool feature. I enjoy the Touch-sensitive keyboard on the Passport and was really happy to see they were pursuing that on the KeyONE.

    I'd actually love to have one--even with Android, to see how close the Hub experience is (I hear still not great), but the cost is just a bit too high for me to play with a phone. $300--I'd likely buy one.
    04-19-18 02:14 PM
  23. kbz1960's Avatar
    So, BB10--a piece of software CAUSED RIM/Blackberry to lose Billions of Dollars.

    Not the Mikes, not Heins, or any PERSON who was in control of decisions, and choices...an inanimate thing is the CAUSE.

    That's irrational.
    T
    So it was the humans who chose to go in that direction at the wrong point in time who also failed to see and guage developer and consumer support for such a venture when there were clearly already 2 or more main players set in place.

    Same goes for windows mobile or whatever MS was doing with windows phone.

    Do you think windows phone can still be viable?
    04-19-18 02:17 PM
  24. KAM1138's Avatar
    I'm not going to teach you accounting, so I guess I'll have to give up.
    The arrogant "I'm so brilliant and I'm not gonna teach a pleb like you" act is unbecoming.
    But maybe I'm matching that with stuborness.

    You've declined to support your statements, with anything beyond repetition, but maybe I'm being too harsh.
    You did say: "The customer therefore contributed nothing towards the OS and effectively got it for free."

    Should I be crediting you for EFFECTIVELY admitting that "effectively zero" isn't "LITERALLY Zero?"
    Is that your shadow-admission of your exaggeration?

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you have any indication that Blackberry actually did somehow isolate money from sales from their general fund, such that it literally did not go to OS development, I'll say you were right.
    04-19-18 02:23 PM
  25. danfrancisco's Avatar
    Yeah, I do think that's a really cool feature. I enjoy the Touch-sensitive keyboard on the Passport and was really happy to see they were pursuing that on the KeyONE.

    I'd actually love to have one--even with Android, to see how close the Hub experience is (I hear still not great), but the cost is just a bit too high for me to play with a phone. $300--I'd likely buy one.
    I'm not sure what BB10 device you're coming from, but the KEYone is definitely worth a try. Especially if you like BBs and want to continue to use one in 2018.

    I loved, loVED, LOVED BB10 and you couldn't rip my Passport from me. But the market has clearly decided that at least for this decade, there's only room for two mobile OSes. Sure, you can still use BBOS, BB10, WebOS or Windows Phone devices if you'd like . Nothing wrong with that. However, through my personal use cases, and more importantly for me when it comes to a mobile device, through my work use cases, having an updated app ecosystem is absolutely vital. As such, I've embraced Android and quite like it. It has come a long way from it's hacky and unpolished roots (everything prior to Marshmallow was pretty weak IMO) and I think works great with BB hardware.

    Hub is not as good as it is on BB10. How can it be? It exists as an app in Android whereas with BB10, it was baked into the OS. But overall, the user experience with the KEYone has far exceeded my expectations. I also owned a Priv and both DTEK devices and I think they really nailed the total package with the KEYone (get the 4GB RAM one though).

    I think you search around, you should be able to find a used KEYone for $300 easily. If you're willing to pony up another hundo, you should be able to find a new one. If you're BlackBerry diehard and can accept that BB10 is nearing EOL, you won't be disappointed with the KEYone.
    04-19-18 02:26 PM
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