[conite]

At what point was this “clear as day” to you?

Also, if you have a CEO that is publicly stating a scenario that they knew “was never going to happen” then doesn’t that strike you as a bit misleading?

Clear as day:

They sold about 5 million the first year, and 3 million the next. Then Chen said he needed to get to 10. Graph much?

To your second question: absolutely not.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Tony

I'm named after the ancient city of Troy, located in what today is Turkey.



It's where these guys were from:





Tony is short for Anthony or Antony. It's also the name of the Academy Awards for Theatrical performances.




See the difference?

[KAM1138]

This is such a fascinating thread that embodies the very essence of CB. Spirited debate with wildly difference perspectives, yet one thing remains consistent, our love for BlackBerry.

I really think you ought to give the KEYone a shot. I think you’ll be surprised at how quickly you will adapt. I will be the first to admit that the DTEK60 and 50 were definitely BlackBerry imposters and the PRIV was a weird first time Android experiment, but to me the KEYone is a BlackBerry through and through. Also keep in mind that there are many folks at BlackBerry Mobile who were former RIM employees so the blackBerry DNA is still in there... they’re just riding on a different platform.

As for BB closing shop and being sold off for parts in hopes that some other company will bring it back to its glory. I have my doubts. One only has to look at Fitbit buying Pebble to see that once a company is truly dead, you can never repeat the magic.

Sure, DroidBerry is not BB10. For some its better, for others its worse. But it exists because of BlackBerry licensing so the DNA lives on. It’s 2018 and I cant believe Im getting pumped for the Athena; a new BlackBerry device in his day and age! I don’t think that would have been possible had Chen not executed his hardware exit strategy and software licensing pivot. Heck, we wouldn’t even have a forum to debate on as CB would likely be dead!

You bring up fair points. I admit I’ve been on the fence about the KeyONE for a while now. The DTEK50 was a disaster for me, but I am very intrigued by the KeyONE hardware. If I had confidence in the Hub, I’d convince myself to try it again.

That said, there are a few other factors. 1) KeyONE seems a bit long in its cycle. 2) The price is still pretty high for a test,and 3) I’m on the final run for BB10, and my Passport is actually functioning well, including the browser (not sure why).

So, this combo of factors just hasn’t gotten me there quite yet. On the other hand, if it really is the last Blackberry hardware design I would like to have it. Just really no great option for me at this time.

If Blackberry did choose to be a strong, dedicated “software company” in regards to consumers, but it seems to be a bit of a low priority.

I’ll keep looking at it, not because I love the options, but because it might offer ONE thing (pKb) which does still interest me. Oh yeah, I get a sick joy from hipsters mocking my using a Blackberry.

[danfrancisco]

They sold about 5 million the first year, and 3 million the next. Then Chen said he needed to get to 10.

I think if anything, Chen telegraphed his intentions to the entire world! Who in their right mind would have realistically thought that 10M in device sales was even possible?

He was basically saying “Here’s where we need to get to to make hardware profitable. I know, insane right? I don’t think we’ll get there either. Im gonna try to keep this company from closing its doors by focusing on software. Wish me luck. Oh and for you hardware die hards, cross your fingers that some OEM out there is gonna step up and take a chance on licensing our brand. Because that’s the only way you’re gonna see a new BB device hit the market again!”

If anything, we should be thanking, nay, cheering for TCL, Optiemus and BB Merah Puti (sp??????)!

[KAM1138]

Clear as day:

They sold about 5 million the first year, and 3 million the next. Then Chen said he needed to get to 10. Graph much?

To your second question: absolutely not.

Really? I find that to be really odd. A CEO lays out a situation, States it publicly, but has no expectation or belief that it is even possible (according to you). That’s the essence of misleading. That you Absolutely don’t find a hint of that is bizarre.

So, 2013, 2014? If I go back to those dates I will find you predicting what? When Chen talked about 10 million units, did you come out and say “No, never gonna happen, I don’t know why Chen would even suggest such a possibility.”
I mean, maybe you did exactly that, if so good on you.

[markmall]

What you or he "thought" is irrelevant. Chen never even made any prediction or took any position on being able to hit the target.

A CEO setting a target without making any attempt to reach it or knowing it's impossible is deceptive. An average shareholder like myself would believe no one would do this unless he were unethical.

Posted via CB10

[danfrancisco]

I’m on the final run for BB10, and my Passport is actually functioning well, including the browser (not sure why).

I think it’s great that the Passport continues to satisfies your mobile needs to this day. Im actually jealous. I fired up my PP SE this weekend and answered a few personal emails and was taken back to a time where I believed that BB10 was truly the bees knees.

But then reality sank in. My work only supports Android and iOS devices. All of the apps I need dont run on BB10’s aging ART. I cant even log into BBM anymore because of the segregation between BBIDs between BB10 and everyone else.

And so I begrudgingly put the PP SE back in its drawer and pick up my KEYone... and my spirits are lifted again because it’s 2018 and Im still using a BB with hipsters and millennials mocking me. But this BB allows me to be productive at work and supports all my needed apps. And most importantly, it FEELS like a BB.

If your use case is such that you don’t need anything beyond phone, email and SMS, then you *should* rock that Passport proudly and until it dies on you! I know that I certainly would if my mobile needs fell into that use case.

[markmall]

It's called protecting your brand, shareholders, and employees - the only legal and ethical thing to do.

Actually Chen has the reputation on wall street of being very direct and honest - look it up. He doesn't sugar-coat anything.

CNET:

"But Chen ... is a spitfire, quick with the jokes, and brutally honest -- often to the dismay and horror of his PR handlers."

His reputation is not what it was when he started this. I listened to a conference call about a year ago. The analysts didn't trust him and I thought he was being very evasive. It might have been about software revenue. Whatever it was I lost a lot of respect for him.


Posted via CB10

[KAM1138]

I think it’s great that the Passport continues to satisfies your mobile needs to this day. Im actually jealous. I fired up my PP SE this weekend and answered a few personal emails and was taken back to a time where I believed that BB10 was truly the bees knees.

But then reality sank in. My work only supports Android and iOS devices. All of the apps I need dont run on BB10’s aging ART. I cant even log into BBM anymore because of the segregation between BBIDs between BB10 and everyone else.

And so I begrudgingly put the PP SE back in its drawer and pick up my KEYone... and my spirits are lifted again because it’s 2018 and Im still using a BB with hipsters and millennials mocking me. But this BB allows me to be productive at work and supports all my needed apps. And most importantly, it FEELS like a BB.

If your use case is such that you don’t need anything beyond phone, email and SMS, then you *should* rock that Passport proudly and until it dies on you! I know that I certainly would if my mobile needs fell into that use case.

Yeah, I am pretty lucky like that, My work needs aren’t suitable for any mobile solution, and I haven’t found a lot of use for many apps ( a few are fine, or amusing), but I really do use core functions 99% of the time.

That’s why for me core BB10 still works so well, and it still seems so much more seamless than Android or iOS which feel like little more that app switchers, barely different than years ago. I realize that’s an exaggeration, and the interface of those OS have made progress, but the “flow”wasn’t there for me. I think people who used BB10 know what I mean even if other needs supersede the BB10 experience.

So, yeah, I’m gonna enjoy it while I can while keeping an eye out and hoping the user experience gets better elsewhere.

A few months ago, I finally got to handle a KeyONE and it did feel nice in hand. I admit I wanted it to try. If I could run it parallel and had $500 to burn, I’d go for it.

Bottom line, if I had JUST the Hub working, really well, and SOME similar “flow”I could probably adapt.

Just for information: I do use other functions beside mail, sms and phone. I use the camera (still and video) Remember app, which I really like, password keeper, as well as various PDA and general utilities like the calculator.

I use the Hub for a number of emai, accounts, and two social media accounts, but those are low priority for me. I have one or two games, but I don’t play them much, and as I mentioned the web browser here and there. I hear a lot of reports of problems, but again, mine is ok so far.

I also use it to start conversations with people who didn’t realize Blackberry existed anymore. Actually, a good number of them aren’t critical and some express fond memories or just think they keyboard is cool.

I also like saying “it’s a Blackberry “ when people suggest a certain app. Kind of a “that’s right...I’m living on the edge” sort of thing.

[markmall]

I also remember talk of Chen revamping their marketing team and efforts to rekindle the sales channels to businesses. I took it all seriously.

Posted via CB10

[KAM1138]

I also remember talk of Chen revamping their marketing team and efforts to rekindle the sales channels to businesses. I took it all seriously.

Posted via CB10

So, in your view, were you intentionally misled?
Do you view it as fraud?

[markmall]

So, in your view, were you intentionally misled?
Do you view it as fraud?

Only if you accept the theory that the board of directors ordered Chen to shut down hardware when he started.

Or if Chen knew he would make no effort to reach the goal and it could never be met.

I'm not sure how you could argue it's not fraud.

Posted via CB10

[Blackberryphosphamide]

No I wouldn't. And i've never paid to use any of the windows operating systems i've had on my computers over the years ;-)

---={////]--[ Dispensed on my BlackBerry Passport 

[KAM1138]

Only if you accept the theory that the board of directors ordered Chen to shut down hardware when he started.

Or if Chen knew he would make no effort to reach the goal and it could never be met.

I'm not sure how you could argue it's not fraud.

Posted via CB10

It seems that others are treating his statements as a flippant comment, implying he really meant “and those goals are impossible” so forget it.

I’d say it wasn’t the job of a CEO to be making flippant, irrelevant statements, but he did announce a phone name of ‘Priv” so he clearly has a sense of humor.

Seriously, imagine if a CEO said, “It is possible we could quadruple our profits this quarter and dominate the market gaining 99% share of sales, if we are able to meet our goal.”

Is that hypothetical a direct lie as stated? “Possible” is a very broad term right? But it would certaînly be misleading to imply there is any realistic chance when there isn’t.

[conite]

Only if you accept the theory that the board of directors ordered Chen to shut down hardware when he started.

Or if Chen knew he would make no effort to reach the goal and it could never be met.

I'm not sure how you could argue it's not fraud.

Posted via CB10

It's not fraud because it isn't. I've never even heard anyone at anytime suggest it - not the SEC, the CSA, the OSC, or any level of law enforcement.

If anything, he was constantly, publicly broadcasting the dire straights that the company was in, how dicey the chance of survival was, and the almost impossible sales levels required to continue building hardware.

[howarmat]

It’s very clear to me that Chen wasn’t hired to serve consumers, which is why I find it funny that anyone who is a consumer views him as anything but a Glorified middle manager of a company that’s got very little going for it.

Whoever made the decision to create BB10 gave me choices—ones that I wanted. Chen did nothing.

Why people are so eager to be apologists for Chen and the board as if their continued existence means anything to me as a consumer is beyond me. If you are a stockholder, then sure.

actually he was, but you and me arent the customers that BB considered at that time. They shifted the operations to serve a different customer and so far its looking like a correct move.

[Chuck Finley69]

So he lied to me because he cares about me?

Posted via CB10

He probably doesn't know you exist. Nowhere in my statement did I state that his job is to care about shareholders or anyone else. If you've been wronged, join a class action lawsuit against Blackberry. If you feel any current lawsuit doesn't fit your narrative, then form your own with like minded persons. I'm not sure what damages you'd be able to claim but the legal system is there for you. Good Luck with your endeavors.

[Chuck Finley69]

Only if you accept the theory that the board of directors ordered Chen to shut down hardware when he started.

Or if Chen knew he would make no effort to reach the goal and it could never be met.

I'm not sure how you could argue it's not fraud.

Posted via CB10

Both of you should pursue class action status together with a class action filing. That's why contingency type cases exist. If ANY lawyer thinks you have a legitimate position, that lawyer will take your case for the expense reimbursement alone. If you can't find a single lawyer willing to do this, you'll understand, all you have is hurt feelings in the eyes of the system and little more.

[KAM1138]

actually he was, but you and me arent the customers that BB considered at that time. They shifted the operations to serve a different customer and so far its looking like a correct move.

Well, that's fair enough. When I said "customers" I was referring to handset customers such as myself.

However, they do produce some apps (what I'm referring to as "very little going for it" for the Android consumer market still--as far as I know, or is that actually part of a lease agreement as well?

My view on this, is that this bit of Consumer product is of low importance to Blackberry. I'm not sure how much effort is being put into it.

[KAM1138]

Both of you should pursue class action status together with a class action filing. That's why contingency type cases exist. If ANY lawyer thinks you have a legitimate position, that lawyer will take your case for the expense reimbursement alone. If you can't find a single lawyer willing to do this, you'll understand, all you have is hurt feelings in the eyes of the system and little more.

When you say "Both" are you referring to me?
I don't believe that I made any claim that Chen/Blackberry did anything strictly illegal.
I do think that Chen said misleading things, but proving fraud would be pretty difficult I think (not a lawyer).

However, I think it was you (Chuck) that suggested that Blackberry executives engaged in some sort of plan--going way back to protect their own holdings, by pursing a course (which included BB10) and seemed to imply that they had no intention of succeeding at the apparent goals (to sell phones), and had seen the writing on the wall regarding the market.
Am I not understanding the point of those earlier posts?

[KAM1138]

What you or he "thought" is irrelevant. Chen never even made any prediction or took any position on being able to hit the target.

Did he represent himself and the company as attempting to meet those goals?
Was it in fact a stated goal of the company to reach 10 million in sales?
And if so, what did he do to attempt to achieve that goal?

It seems like that is partially what markmall is talking about--whether Chen Stated a goal of the company, but did not make any good-faith attempt to pursue it, OR perhaps was instructed by the board to NOT pursue it.

IF (and I'm stressing IF) that's the case, then that is, on its face, misleading the audience of the statement (about 10 million units). Whether that meets any other legal criteria of fraud--a lawyer could address that.

My personal OPINION on it is that Chen might not be a visionary, or know anything about building/saving a Mobile Phone company or have the first idea how one would have sold 10 million phones, but I doubt he is "stupid" or making a statement like that without knowing what it entailed. I doubt he WOULD commit fraud and open himself up to legal actions.
I do think it is likely he was hired to get Blackberry out of hardware and attempt to save as much money as possible doing so, and to do other things he has done--like leverage their Property (patents) to gain some money from it. I think Chen has likely succeeded in the actual goals of the company--as evidenced by what they actually pursued and where they ended up.

I don't think there's a conspiracy beyond what can be seen via their ACTIONS. However, it doesn't mean that Chen's statements weren't crafted to portray something different, or to help in pursuing the actual goals.

Simple example: If Blackberry had hopes of selling or leasing their Keyboard patents...it would likely be beneficial to appear that Blackberry Keyboard Phones were a viable product that people wanted. So that might explain why the Passport made it to market instead of being cancelled (perhaps it was too late to cancel), or the Classic, or Priv.

[howarmat]

Well, that's fair enough. When I said "customers" I was referring to handset customers such as myself.

However, they do produce some apps (what I'm referring to as "very little going for it" for the Android consumer market still--as far as I know, or is that actually part of a lease agreement as well?

My view on this, is that this bit of Consumer product is of low importance to Blackberry. I'm not sure how much effort is being put into it.

You are correct, BB no longer cares about the lowly consumer like you and me. we are probably 3% of their income now if even that. They shifted to enterprise software and services and BB Mobile is now a separate entity handling consumer operations for the most part.

[conite]

You are correct, BB no longer cares about the lowly consumer like you and me. we are probably 3% of their income now if even that. They shifted to enterprise software and services and BB Mobile is now a separate entity handling consumer operations for the most part.

That said, their licencing agreement with TCL and the others for BlackBerry Android and branding is pretty significant. And although we are not contractually the direct customer, we "kind of" are.

[conite]

Did he represent himself and the company as attempting to meet those goals?
Was it in fact a stated goal of the company to reach 10 million in sales?

He neither suggested that was a target, nor whether it was achievable.

He simply threw out the number as what it would take to breakeven.

It was a not-so-subtle way of broadcasting intent.

Not a single person was surprised when the plug was eventually "officially" pulled. Expectations had been properly managed in my opinion.

[KAM1138]

You are correct, BB no longer cares about the lowly consumer like you and me. we are probably 3% of their income now if even that. They shifted to enterprise software and services and BB Mobile is now a separate entity handling consumer operations for the most part.

Right--which is why I have what some might see as a Cavalier attitude towards Blackberry as it stands today. I , or those like me, am not their customer--or very tangentially so via third parties.

All that said--however it came down, I guess I shouldn't be TOO disappointed. As of today, I'm still happily using my Passport running BB10, and it's the best phone I've ever owned. I definitely think I've gotten my money's worth out of the product I bought.