05-02-16 06:50 AM
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  1. markmall's Avatar
    Apps are more important to the "older, professional demographic" and people that rely on "heavy email use" than you think.
    All 1 billion of them? And all 1 billion of them only have one phone for both work and their personal life? This is a huge market now. Blackberry blamed the lack of apps, but it could have succeeded in spite of this impediment. Many if not nearly all of smartphone users over 40 do not use Snapchat, Instagram, etc. Maybe FB and Whatsapp would be a problem, but this has happened long after the fact.
    04-28-16 04:57 PM
  2. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    All 1 billion of them? And all 1 billion of them only have one phone for both work and their personal life? This is a huge market now. Blackberry blamed the lack of apps, but it could have succeeded in spite of this impediment. Many if not nearly all of smartphone users over 40 do not use Snapchat, Instagram, etc. Maybe FB and Whatsapp would be a problem, but this has happened long after the fact.
    Are you honestly suggesting that 1 billion smartphone users are only interested in email and don't care about apps? Really? I think that number is much, much smaller, in reality.

    The problem is that when the average smartphone user asks "does it have x,y,z apps", if the answer is anything but an unqualified "yes", most of them are going to look elsewhere. In BB10's case, especially in the beginning, the answer was less often "yes" and more often "no" or "no, but you can sideload the Android version" or "yes, but it doesn't have all the features of the iOS or Android version" or "yes, but it's not the official app - it's made by a third party".

    Later, other answers were added like "yes, but it's an Android app and you have to install it from the Amazon app store" and "no, but if you can get the Android APK from somewhere you won't have to sideload it, you can install it with just a couple taps". But that was still far from an unqualified "yes". People wanted to hear "yes, BlackBerry world has all those apps and they work great", and most of the time that's not what they heard.

    It's not just about Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, etc. What about all the Google apps that require Google Play Services? What about banking apps? Apps like Netflix or Hulu? Or does the "older, professional demographic" not watch movies or TV shows, either? And before you give me the "just use the browser" answer, most people understand that's a poor substitute that doesn't integrate with the hardware and OS to nearly the same degree an app does.

    You know what the problem with BB10 is? Business smartphone users are ALSO personal smartphone users, most of them DO NOT carry around 2 or 3 phones, and most of them do, in fact, depend on certain apps for both business and personal use.
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-28-16 05:30 PM
  3. Invictus0's Avatar
    This is interesting. I don't think they spent wisely, and they definitely shot their load too early. The OS was in beta form for many months after release, and the Z10 was not a world beating device. (I recall that I could not sync BB10 with my Outlook program, which was the main driver in staying with BB at the time. They were still perfecting the Link software.)

    Whatever they spent after the initial launch of the OS and during the release of their better BB10 smartphones was grossly insufficient. Maybe they were gun shy after the Z10 debacle. Maybe $200 million was not enough for this type of rollout.

    Below is what they spent on buying up companies in search of a new business since the launch of BB10 (per Wikipedia). Who was it who said that they didn't have a spare $100-$500 million sitting around to market their product?
    If anything, the fact that they may have spent $200 million on ads and still couldn't brute force their way into sustainable marketshare or brand recognition (going by how many "they still make phones?" comments we see on the site) shows that there were other issues at play (some with the OS, the market, etc). This didn't/doesn't mean that BB10 was "dead", they just began focusing more on enterprise markets (not just Chen, but Heins as well),

    BlackBerry to retreat from consumer market, lay off 4,500 employees | The Verge

    I don't know about Movirtu but Scroon became part of BBM

    BlackBerry bought French startup to boost BBM - Kitchener-Waterloo - CBC News
    BigBadWulf and JeepBB like this.
    04-28-16 06:40 PM
  4. southlander's Avatar
    Reviewers are not a good barometer for the older, professional demographic BlackBerry should (is? was?) targeting and are too few in number to draw any conclusions.

    People that rely on heavy email use and don't need the teenage girly apps (this means not young gadget reviewers) would be interested in BB10 -- if they knew it existed.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree that Blackberry currently... has some limited niche demographic to shoot for. Pkb users who message with it heavily and who need unbeatable security. But even that has limits as voice becomes the way to interact with these things. And as other companies dial in on security.

    The traditional blackberry users are getting still older. The up and coming old folks apparently will never have used a blackberry.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-28-16 11:52 PM
  5. markmall's Avatar
    I agree that Blackberry currently... has some limited niche demographic to shoot for. Pkb users who message with it heavily and who need unbeatable security. But even that has limits as voice becomes the way to interact with these things. And as other companies dial in on security.

    The traditional blackberry users are getting still older. The up and coming old folks apparently will never have used a blackberry.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    The whole "security" angle for the Priv was a joke. (The name was worse.) Even if that theme had some attraction for consumers, the problem is that the Priv is not even more secure.

    Who at BB decided that it would make sense to make a security-themed device? What information did they have that convinced them that consumers would (1) make buying decisions based on security and (2) be convinced that the Priv was somehow more secure than the latest Samsung device?
    04-29-16 05:18 PM
  6. JeepBB's Avatar
    The whole "security" angle for the Priv was a joke. (The name was worse.) Even if that theme had some attraction for consumers, the problem is that the Priv is not even more secure.

    Who at BB decided that it would make sense to make a security-themed device? What information did they have that convinced them that consumers would (1) make buying decisions based on security and (2) be convinced that the Priv was somehow more secure than the latest Samsung device?
    I'd imagine the "who at BB" was struggling with how to differentiate the Priv... an expensive, niche-format (sliders aren't universally loved) Android phone from the zillions of other (cheaper, arguably better) Android phones.

    They probably decided to build on BB's historic reputation for privacy/security as a way to separate the Priv from the herd.

    I actually agree with you. There is little evidence that the average consumer cares in the slightest about security, and only 1 in a zillion would base their phone buying decision on security. And it's debatable whether the Priv is any more secure than any other phone. But... what else did BB have to market as a USP for the Priv?

    The PKB? Except for a few BB diehards, I doubt many consumers want a PKB on their next phone. It simply takes up real-estate that would be better used for the screen.

    The Hub? Again, I've never seen any evidence that users of iOS/Android/AnyPlatform are waiting with bated breath for the Hub. Sure, I read here on CB that the Hub is awesome (though the Priv Hub isn't finished and isn't a patch on the BB10 Hub), but outside of the CB forums I've seen nothing to show that people "out there" want it.

    So, IMO security is what BB thinks will attract buyers. I believe they're wrong. I reckon the value proposition for the Priv versus every other Android phone isn't convincing... and the poor sales of the Priv tend to support my view.

    Now that the fire-sales seem to have started, I'm sure more Privs will be sold, but I doubt BB is making money at those prices. So once the current inventory is sold... what do you think BB will do?

    It's a trick question really. Chen has already supplied the answer of what BB will do if BB can't make phones profitable. He's been explicit. He's repeated it. And yet, strangely, folk here on CB seem to develop hearing difficulties on that subject, or tie themselves in knots in convoluted arguments that Chen doesn't mean what he says. He does.
    04-30-16 04:01 PM
  7. GadgetTravel's Avatar
    All 1 billion of them? And all 1 billion of them only have one phone for both work and their personal life? This is a huge market now. Blackberry blamed the lack of apps, but it could have succeeded in spite of this impediment. Many if not nearly all of smartphone users over 40 do not use Snapchat, Instagram, etc. Maybe FB and Whatsapp would be a problem, but this has happened long after the fact.
    Those aren't the only apps. There are banking, airline, transit, task management. And a huge number of specific guides for meetings conferences and so forth. Then there are app for specific applications. BB10 isn't in the game.
    anon(6038817) and JeepBB like this.
    05-01-16 05:08 AM
  8. GadgetTravel's Avatar
    I agree that Blackberry currently... has some limited niche demographic to shoot for. Pkb users who message with it heavily and who need unbeatable security. But even that has limits as voice becomes the way to interact with these things. And as other companies dial in on security.

    The traditional blackberry users are getting still older. The up and coming old folks apparently will never have used a blackberry.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    I use voice to text for an increasing percentage of my messaging. I also use it with a dictation app more and more for long documents. The document photo app in the Evernote app is also getting increasing use from me.
    anon(6038817) likes this.
    05-01-16 05:14 AM
  9. DonHB's Avatar
    It's a trick question really. Chen has already supplied the answer of what BB will do if BB can't make phones profitable. He's been explicit. He's repeated it. And yet, strangely, folk here on CB seem to develop hearing difficulties on that subject, or tie themselves in knots in convoluted arguments that Chen doesn't mean what he says. He does.
    What I don't get is why Chen says he will only continue with handsets if they are profitable, but doesn't, as the path to this destination, price handsets to break even which could increase purchases (as opposed to sales). He seemed to realize this issue when he said Priv was priced out of the market. With his early statements regarding continuing with handsets being essential to end-to-end security taking the above approach wouldn't be completely out of line.

    Seeing product in peoples hands would have a big impact. I wonder if it has ever been tried that a handset manufacturer would match the investment carriers put into advertising in the value of handsets provided to the carrier. It would seem to be a reasonable way to apportion risk, but accounting between parties may be difficult.
    Last edited by DonHB; 05-01-16 at 06:53 AM. Reason: .02
    05-01-16 06:50 AM
  10. southlander's Avatar
    The whole "security" angle for the Priv was a joke. (The name was worse.) Even if that theme had some attraction for consumers, the problem is that the Priv is not even more secure.

    Who at BB decided that it would make sense to make a security-themed device? What information did they have that convinced them that consumers would (1) make buying decisions based on security and (2) be convinced that the Priv was somehow more secure than the latest Samsung device?
    They are not targeting consumers at all -- BB is done with consumers. Business buyers have to consider security if they are at all competent.

    Yes the Priv is really no more secure than say an S7 from what I know. Agreed. And it was/is expensive as well.

    But BlackBerry10 is also not more secure in any ways that seem to matter to most business buyers. It is "technically" more secure in that it is not rootable. And it also enjoys some security through obscurity benefits in that there's not a lot of commercial incentive to break into an OS with 1% or less market share. But it is sheer fantasy to think the coders inside of BlackBerry somehow always write better quality code than their counterparts at Google or Apple, or Microsoft.

    Though BB seemingly gets kudos for designing security in, even if there are yet to be known or never to be known flaws. But again security principles are not some big secret.

    I don't consider security and privacy to be at all the same thing (though yes related). If one opts in to Google's services, then so long as the code as written and devices as designed, don't allow understood/correctly set security measures to be bypassed, then the issues with ad targeting with pemission, mining contacts with permission, etc. all have nothing to do with security. It is an intended design.

    So long as the Priv with Android 6 effectively enforces permissions choices on apps and obeys system security and privacy settings, then that's good enough for me.
    Last edited by southlander; 05-01-16 at 12:51 PM.
    05-01-16 12:41 PM
  11. Rarefrith's Avatar
    I've never seen anyone else with a Blackberry 10 phone since first owning a Q5 and then the Leap for nearly a year!!

    Posted via my BlackBerry Leap
    05-02-16 06:50 AM
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