05-02-16 07:50 AM
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  1. DonHB's Avatar
    You must also understand that there is very limited room for more than 3 ecosystems in the market (and the 3rd place is usually not in a very good state). For desktop you have Windows, MacOSX and Linux distros and for mobile you have Android, iOS and WindowsPhone. Notice there are no really new desktop OSs being launched for a long long time now?
    ...
    But also, devs don't have anything against BB or BB10, but they also pay no favors. Devs didn't really care which OSs become successful, just that the market for apps thrive. It just happened that this generation iOS and Android are the victors, but it could just have well been BB10 (to the devs it would have been the same, just a name change).
    Consider that BlackBerry could have avoided putting BB10 into a third ecosystem had they chose to have Android apps deliver the Flow UX. Cascades put BB10 into the third ecosystem. QNX chose Qt which was available to third parties, but BlackBerry chasing it for BB10 would have also put it in a third ecosystem, but one that crossed platforms.
    04-27-16 02:36 PM
  2. Bogdan Tudor Dan's Avatar
    The Super Bowl is a global phenomenon, especially It's advertising. F1 also global, though primarily Europe, and carries the largest fan base of any sport. at&t is the US, but those were simply limited examples. Canadian carriers also advertised, and I don't think anyone could rival Indonesia's marketing.

    Apple may have great marketing, but what shot them and Android skyward, was listening and delivering what consumers want.
    I am sorry but I disagree with you regarding Super Bowl being a GLOBAL phenomen. In Europe we have a different football, the one the Super Bowl fans call "Soccer". That's the European phenomen.
    Regarding the marketing opinions we had, I was talking about the marketing that talks to the people, that says they have a fresh new OS, not only banners with "BlackBerry" on it, or the same writing on Formula 1 cars. Worldwide everybody knows that BlackBerry exists, but most of the people think about BlackBerry they only have the old smartphones with BBOS5, BBOS7, they think there is no all-touch BlackBerry device, the long story short they don't know about BlackBerry 10.

    F1 is global, but not everybody watches it. For example I get bored if I watch Formula one on TV, I am into cars but I rather watch some rally, it is more excited. What I wanna say is that no company can make a succesfull marketing only for a certain "group" of people.

    It's good that they made some marketing with the Super Bowl, Formula 1 and AT&T, but that is not enough if they want to gain the masses.

    Posted via CB10
    markmall likes this.
    04-27-16 02:48 PM
  3. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I am sorry but I disagree with you regarding Super Bowl being a GLOBAL phenomen. In Europe we have a different football, the one the Super Bowl fans call "Soccer". That's the European phenomen.
    Regarding the marketing opinions we had, I was talking about the marketing that talks to the people, that says they have a fresh new OS, not only banners with "BlackBerry" on it, or the same writing on Formula 1 cars. Worldwide everybody knows that BlackBerry exists, but most of the people think about BlackBerry they only have the old smartphones with BBOS5, BBOS7, they think there is no all-touch BlackBerry device, the long story short they don't know about BlackBerry 10.

    F1 is global, but not everybody watches it. For example I get bored if I watch Formula one on TV, I am into cars but I rather watch some rally, it is more excited. What I wanna say is that no company can make a succesfull marketing only for a certain "group" of people.

    It's good that they made some marketing with the Super Bowl, Formula 1 and AT&T, but that is not enough if they want to gain the masses.

    Posted via CB10
    This whole discussion is ridiculous. Everyone has all these "ideas" for sales/marketing and fail to realize they don't have the $$$$$ to spend. What part of "almost bankrupt" do people not understand when Chen took over the company. What limited cash the company has is going where they get the best return. There is no good reason to blow money in hardware space now. The margins in hardware suck and getting worse.

    Posted via CB10
    04-27-16 02:58 PM
  4. Bogdan Tudor Dan's Avatar
    You keep saying IOS was missing things. Missing what, exactly? Apple changed the way people looked at phones. It changed the way people used their phones. It made people become emotional about their phones. In other words, it changed the entire phone market. Google saw it, dumped the BlackBerry clone it was working on, and got in while the getting was good.

    If Google had kept working on a "BlackBerry killer" while BlackBerry had seen the writing on the wall and started making a large touch phone with an app-based OS, all the whining we read on crackberry would be over on android central instead.

    BlackBerry Classic non-camera, Cricket Wireless
    IOS was missing the same thing BlackBerry 10 misses now, apps. You could customize and install new features on Symbian that were not available on IOS. The second thing IOS was missing is real connectivity features. For example in this moment I remember I didn't use any smartphone for a while and I had an old regular phone that I was using as a storage device as well. I had to transfer some files to my best friend and the only way possible was with email because he had an Iphone and could share anything with the bluetooth. IPHONE still has the compatibility problems nowadays, that is not the case for BlackBerry 10 or Android.
    It is true that Apple changed the smartphones industry, but that doesn't mean IOS was better than Symbian. They just made it prettier. As a functionality, Nokia was far superior. The third thing the first Iphone was missing was 3G.

    Now again, back on the topic. I still think one of BlackBerry 10 lack of succes reasons is the fact they didn't have a good marketing for it.

    Posted via CB10
    04-27-16 03:10 PM
  5. Bogdan Tudor Dan's Avatar
    This whole discussion is ridiculous. Everyone has all these "ideas" for sales/marketing and fail to realize they don't have the $$$$$ to spend. What part of "almost bankrupt" do people not understand when Chen took over the company. What limited cash the company has is going where they get the best return. There is no good reason to blow money in hardware space now. The margins in hardware suck and getting worse.

    Posted via CB10
    Sorry, I didn't understand the fact that BlackBerry was almost bankrupted when Chen took over the company. Also I had the illusion that if a company needs a turnaround plan they need to make some investments. Actually I made a bigger mistake by thinking that if somebody has a product to sell they need to promote it. I was so stupid. People don't need to know that a product exists to buy it. They just go and buy things without knowing they exist.
    I'm sorry.
    I am going now to buy something I don't know it exists.

    Posted via CB10
    markmall and Christoph7K like this.
    04-27-16 03:27 PM
  6. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Sorry, I didn't understand the fact that BlackBerry was almost bankrupted when Chen took over the company. Also I had the illusion that if a company needs a turnaround plan they need to make some investments. Actually I made a bigger mistake by thinking that if somebody has a product to sell they need to promote it. I was so stupid. People don't need to know that a product exists to buy it. They just go and buy things without knowing they exist.
    I'm sorry.
    I am going now to buy something I don't know it exists.

    Posted via CB10
    Before you try sarcarsm, get some business experience. Obviously you live in Europe where you wait for other Nations' companies to kick your companies to curb, like Nokia. The statement was exactly, where did you expect BlackBerry to get money for your brilliant marketing campaign? Nobody was even willing to buy the company. They were lucky Fairfield loaned them $1 billion to keep afloat. Not wasting any money is the only reason company still exists. So where do you get the money from?

    Posted via CB10
    DrBoomBotz and JeepBB like this.
    04-27-16 03:34 PM
  7. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    Sorry, I didn't understand the fact that BlackBerry was almost bankrupted when Chen took over the company. Also I had the illusion that if a company needs a turnaround plan they need to make some investments. Actually I made a bigger mistake by thinking that if somebody has a product to sell they need to promote it. I was so stupid. People don't need to know that a product exists to buy it. They just go and buy things without knowing they exist.
    I'm sorry.
    I am going now to buy something I don't know it exists.

    Posted via CB10
    It's not that they didn't know BB10 existed, it's that they didn't care it existed.

    What problems did BB10 solve for the average smartphone user? What value did it bring? What could have possibly enticed millions of them to abandon their well-established iOS or Android app/media ecosystems (and all the money they've already invested in them) for an unproven, unfinished, buggy OS missing many of the apps they are used to having?
    04-27-16 03:38 PM
  8. Bogdan Tudor Dan's Avatar
    It's not that they didn't know BB10 existed, it's that they didn't care it existed.

    What problems did BB10 solve for the average smartphone user? What value did it bring? What could have possibly enticed millions of them to abandon their well-established iOS or Android app/media ecosystems (and all the money they've already invested in them) for an unproven, unfinished, buggy OS missing many of the apps they are used to having?
    I agree with you about the lack of apps only. BlackBerry 10 is a buggy OS? I am sorry but I didn't have any issues with it, instead I could say about Android that is buggy. So that is one thing BlackBerry 10 brought. I know, you will say that Android is not buggy, that is what many persons I know said when I was telling them Android is buggy. After a while some of them went on IOS and they started complaining about Android, they realy had the problem I was talking about. Another thing they brought is a new interface. It is not much, but it is a big deal for me.

    About the fact that people know about BlackBerry 10 but they don't care... how do you explain the fact that everywhere I go people asked me about my Z10 if it's the latest BlackBerry device and that is after they are surprised BlackBerry still makes smartphones? Not saying about people reactions when they see my Passport SE... yesterday a person asked me if my Passport is a limited edition or if it is a custom made special order I have. Or do they ask me if my BlackBerry is an Android phone because they know about BlackBerry 10?

    Posted via CB10
    04-27-16 03:52 PM
  9. xtremeled's Avatar
    What if there were a bbry shareholder revolt. We fire the whole board of directors and Chen, sell off the new acquisitions, use the money to hire back the bb10 staff, form a dedicated app team and retain an up and coming advertising firm to raise brand awareness around the world.



    Posted via CB10
    Well, we know one thing for sure, You've never started a successful on your own.
    04-27-16 04:01 PM
  10. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    I agree with you about the lack of apps only. BlackBerry 10 is a buggy OS? I am sorry but I didn't have any issues with it, instead I could say about Android that is buggy. So that is one thing BlackBerry 10 brought. I know, you will say that Android is not buggy, that is what many persons I know said when I was telling them Android is buggy. After a while some of them went on IOS and they started complaining about Android, they realy had the problem I was talking about. Another thing they brought is a new interface. It is not much, but it is a big deal for me.
    When the Z10 was released BB10 was indeed incomplete and buggy. Even BlackBerry enthusiasts admit it. That was BlackBerry's best (and only) chance to make a good first impression with BB10 and they blew it.

    Every mobile OS has its problems - you won't find me saying any platform is flawless.

    About the fact that people know about BlackBerry 10 but they don't care... how do you explain the fact that everywhere I go people asked me about my Z10 if it's the latest BlackBerry device and that is after they are surprised BlackBerry still makes smartphones? Not saying about people reactions when they see my Passport SE... yesterday a person asked me if my Passport is a limited edition or if it is a custom made special order I have. Or do they ask me if my BlackBerry is an Android phone because they know about BlackBerry 10?
    There is a difference between people asking about a phone and going out and buying one themselves.

    People are naturally curious. They may even think your BB10 phone is cool. It doesn't mean they care enough to go and buy one for themselves. And why would they if it doesn't do what they want/need?
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-27-16 04:05 PM
  11. Bogdan Tudor Dan's Avatar
    Before you try sarcarsm, get some business experience. Obviously you live in Europe where you wait for other Nations' companies to kick your companies to curb, like Nokia. The statement was exactly, where did you expect BlackBerry to get money for your brilliant marketing campaign? Nobody was even willing to buy the company. They were lucky Fairfield loaned them $1 billion to keep afloat. Not wasting any money is the only reason company still exists. So where do you get the money from?

    Posted via CB10
    First of all, don't insult me when you are talking about the fact that I live in Europe. I am not expecting for other Nations companies to kick our companies.
    Second, I am not telling BlackBerry what they should do, I was just saying that no company can expect to be a worldwide leader without good marketing.
    You could say whatever you want but nowadays the bestsellers are products with the best marketing not the best quality.
    About Nokia, they didn't need Microsof. Microsof needed a smartphone manufacturer for the image because as we know Windows is windows. After that they killed Nokia from inside.

    Posted via CB10
    markmall and StephanieMaks like this.
    04-27-16 04:05 PM
  12. Bogdan Tudor Dan's Avatar
    When the Z10 was released BB10 was indeed incomplete and buggy. Even BlackBerry enthusiasts admit it. That was BlackBerry's best (and only) chance to make a good first impression with BB10 and they blew it.

    Every mobile OS has its problems - you won't find me saying any platform is flawless.



    There is a difference between people asking about a phone and going out and buying one themselves.

    People are naturally curious. They may even think your BB10 phone is cool. It doesn't mean they care enough to go and buy one for themselves. And why would they if it doesn't do what they want/need?
    Those were the examples that people don't know BlackBerry 10 exists. They were surprised when they saw my BlackBerry Z10 or my BlackBerry Passport.
    And there are also people that didn't see my phone when I was telling them to I have a BlackBerry and they assumed I have a BBOS5 or BBOS7 device.

    Posted via CB10
    04-27-16 04:09 PM
  13. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    Those were the examples that people don't know BlackBerry 10 exists. They were surprised when they saw my BlackBerry Z10 or my BlackBerry Passport.
    And there are also people that didn't see my phone when I was telling them to I have a BlackBerry and they assumed I have a BBOS5 or BBOS7 device.

    Posted via CB10
    And the point I am making is that it makes no difference whether they know BB10 exists or not if they don't buy a BB10 phone when they do know it exists.

    The product has to sell itself, to a certain degree.
    04-27-16 04:12 PM
  14. Bogdan Tudor Dan's Avatar
    And the point I am making is that it makes no difference whether they know BB10 exists or not if they don't buy a BB10 phone when they do know it exists.

    The product has to sell itself, to a certain degree.
    Yes, the product has to sell itself, to a certain degree, but that is impossible if the consumer you want to sell to doesn't know your product exist.

    Posted via CB10
    markmall likes this.
    04-27-16 04:33 PM
  15. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Those were the examples that people don't know BlackBerry 10 exists. They were surprised when they saw my BlackBerry Z10 or my BlackBerry Passport.
    And there are also people that didn't see my phone when I was telling them to I have a BlackBerry and they assumed I have a BBOS5 or BBOS7 device.

    Posted via CB10
    The point is, BlackBerry knows what they need to compete in hardware and has made it's decisions on how to operate with it's very limited resources. They wasted $5-10 billion and lost 5 years on developing BB10. That money and time should have been spent on Android hardware/software development back then. Luckily Chen is doing what his predecessors should have done. Even now, money spent on software company acquisitions provide a better return than advertising for hardware. Android is going from upper tier flagship to midrange. Only thing worse are the stupid ideas about how money should be spent on BB10. The sooner it's forgotten about the better for the sake of BlackBerry the company...

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-27-16 05:20 PM
  16. markmall's Avatar
    This whole discussion is ridiculous. Everyone has all these "ideas" for sales/marketing and fail to realize they don't have the $$$$$ to spend. What part of "almost bankrupt" do people not understand when Chen took over the company. What limited cash the company has is going where they get the best return. There is no good reason to blow money in hardware space now. The margins in hardware suck and getting worse.

    Posted via CB10
    They had the cash to market their smartphones. They especially had the cash after the loan they got through Prem and Co. What did they use to make all these software acquisitions? Yes, they have been spending cash to make their income statement look better. Maybe they should have invested in themselves and their masterful OS rather than anonymous startup companies.

    Not saying BBRY has the resources of a Microsoft, but look how determined Microsoft is with their hardware products! It has paid off with the Surface devices. They also took a huge write-off when they first started, but they kept refining and improving it. And they marketed it, of course.
    04-27-16 05:31 PM
  17. markmall's Avatar
    Sorry, I didn't understand the fact that BlackBerry was almost bankrupted when Chen took over the company. Also I had the illusion that if a company needs a turnaround plan they need to make some investments. Actually I made a bigger mistake by thinking that if somebody has a product to sell they need to promote it. I was so stupid. People don't need to know that a product exists to buy it. They just go and buy things without knowing they exist.
    I'm sorry.
    I am going now to buy something I don't know it exists.

    Posted via CB10
    Thank you! I don't think Chen knew enough about marketing to understand that the first step to selling is for people to know that your product exists.
    04-27-16 05:35 PM
  18. markmall's Avatar
    The point is, BlackBerry knows what they need to compete in hardware and has made it's decisions on how to operate with it's very limited resources. They wasted $5-10 billion and lost 5 years on developing BB10. That money and time should have been spent on Android hardware/software development back then. Luckily Chen is doing what his predecessors should have done. Even now, money spent on software company acquisitions provide a better return than advertising for hardware. Android is going from upper tier flagship to midrange. Only thing worse are the stupid ideas about how money should be spent on BB10. The sooner it's forgotten about the better for the sake of BlackBerry the company...

    Posted via CB10
    We have no evidence that the shift to Android will work. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary.
    elfabio80 likes this.
    04-27-16 05:36 PM
  19. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    @markmall - they don't have the money to market or they would have..all the money from loan did was allow them ability to pay bills as they right sized the company. Now they're paying for revenue. Laying out dollars and getting back those dollars with immediate cash flow. They're paying loans back with the acquired companies money's. Even apple's huge cash reserves aren't big enough to move a product that nobody wants. Heck their reserves weren't enough to avoid 1st quarter in 13 years of uninterrupted growth. That's like a 52 quarter streak...

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-27-16 05:46 PM
  20. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    We have no evidence that the shift to Android will work. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary.
    The point was if they'd followed this strategy 7-8 years ago but at this point they have nothing to lose. Since the introduction of the iPhone, for the other manufacturers, it's android or bust.. the carriers embraced a 2-3 OS system and BlackBerry was never an option.

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-27-16 05:50 PM
  21. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    They had the cash to market their smartphones. They especially had the cash after the loan they got through Prem and Co. What did they use to make all these software acquisitions? Yes, they have been spending cash to make their income statement look better. Maybe they should have invested in themselves and their masterful OS rather than anonymous startup companies.

    Not saying BBRY has the resources of a Microsoft, but look how determined Microsoft is with their hardware products! It has paid off with the Surface devices. They also took a huge write-off when they first started, but they kept refining and improving it. And they marketed it, of course.
    They're mobile hardware division is still losing money and MSFT has more cash to burn than BlackBerry has market capitalization.

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-27-16 05:53 PM
  22. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    Yes, the product has to sell itself, to a certain degree, but that is impossible if the consumer you want to sell to doesn't know your product exist.

    Posted via CB10
    Word of mouth is widely regarded as one of the most effective marketing methods there is.

    Of the people you know to whom you've talked about or showed off your BB10 device(s), how many have bought one for themselves and kept using it?

    If your praise of the device and showing off all its amazing features to your family, friends, associates, etc. wasn't enough to get them to buy one or keep it, what makes you think any amount of marketing from BlackBerry could have been any more effective?

    I know this is anecdotal evidence, but of all the people to whom I've talked about or showed my BB10 devices, only one of them has actually bought one (a Classic) and kept it for a while. And he's already told me he's ditching it for an iPhone when his contract is up because it doesn't have all the apps he needs.

    I've read plenty of posts on CB about people who have gotten their entire families and many friends onto BB10 phones, but they are obviously the exception and not the rule. And how many of them are still on BB10? How many of them will be 1-2 years from now?

    Microsoft dumped truck loads of cash on marketing Windows Phone only to carve out a few measly percentage points of worldwide mobile OS market share. And that market share was mostly from super-cheap low-end Lumia phones that sold well in emerging markets. BlackBerry missed that boat, too.
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-27-16 06:45 PM
  23. Bogdan Tudor Dan's Avatar
    Word of mouth is widely regarded as one of the most effective marketing methods there is.

    Of the people you know to whom you've talked about or showed off your BB10 device(s), how many have bought one for themselves and kept using it?

    If your praise of the device and showing off all its amazing features to your family, friends, associates, etc. wasn't enough to get them to buy one or keep it, what makes you think any amount of marketing from BlackBerry could have been any more effective?

    I know this is anecdotal evidence, but of all the people to whom I've talked about or showed my BB10 devices, only one of them has actually bought one (a Classic) and kept it for a while. And he's already told me he's ditching it for an iPhone when his contract is up because it doesn't have all the apps he needs.

    I've read plenty of posts on CB about people who have gotten their entire families and many friends onto BB10 phones, but they are obviously the exception and not the rule. And how many of them are still on BB10? How many of them will be 1-2 years from now?

    Microsoft dumped truck loads of cash on marketing Windows Phone only to carve out a few measly percentage points of worldwide mobile OS market share. And that market share was mostly from super-cheap low-end Lumia phones that sold well in emerging markets. BlackBerry missed that boat, too.
    To be honest only 3 people bought a BlackBerry 10 device after they saw my Z10. Those are from friends group. Most of the people I was talking about that they didn't have a clue about BlackBerry 10 existence are people I met traveling with my work and I don't know if they bought one or not. I would assume not because I didn't show them how amazing it is since I don't care if they want it or not. Also it is almost impossible for them to try one since I tried, for example, to try out the BlackBerry Passport SE in the Netherlands, Germany and Romania but no succes. In every store I had the same response: "we don't sell BlackBerry devices". What was funny is that some of those stores had the devices available online. My only option was to order one online.
    Would you buy a smartphone that you can not test and play with it before you buy it?
    Yesterday I was asked about my Passport by someone and he looked interested about it but the summary of what I told him is that it's the best smartphone for me but also that BlackBerry has great products and bad management so he can not be sure about the support he will get in the future. I also told him there is no Facebook app anymore and he replied he doesn't care about facebook. The only issue he found was when I told him there will be no Watsapp support after 2016.


    Posted via CB10
    04-27-16 08:06 PM
  24. Ray Soto's Avatar
    I don't agree with that. I believe the popularity is simply due to price and device options. The market is saturated with android devices and people who don't know what to buy will tend to go with whatever is popular. Until you can buy a new (fresh release) iPhone or windows phone for $100-200 android will remain king.
    I don't know about that, if that were the case then why is the new iPhone 5sc failing in the market? It's because of volume. Android is everywhere. Every manufacturer is making phones using android. Remember that movie "silicon Valley"? Remember what Bill Gates said to jobs when Jobs said that Apple was better? He said, "That doesn't matter" once all manufacturer shift production of Hardware running Android, those loyal to that brand will purchase threat device. Especially since basically all these manufacturers made entry level and flag ship devices. Now your covering all pipes of brand loyalists. Hence the reason why app development became the norm for Android. Everyone makes them, everyone has one. Food for thought

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    04-27-16 08:40 PM
  25. Ray Soto's Avatar
    Thank you! I don't think Chen knew enough about marketing to understand that the first step to selling is for people to know that your product exists.
    The problem that blackberry had was that they had nothing to market. What did they have that would stand out from the rest of the phones our there. Nothing

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    04-27-16 08:43 PM
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