[Omnitech]

What's telling is there's never been any official statement from any carrier saying that they hated BIS.
That should, I think, tell you all you need to know.

Yes, that they don't wash their dirty laundry in public.

I agree it could be rumor, but it could just as easily (in my view more likely) be fact.

[kbz1960]

You need an NOC connection for most data related activities, at least at this point, including emails and browsing. At least that's my experience, and the experience of everyone I know with a Z10.

Re carriers, it really depends on who you're talking to. When BIS was dropped people started saying that carriers always hated it. In my opinion this is just pure rumor.
When BIS was mandatory I kept reading about how carriers loved BlackBerry and their data system because it was so data efficient and meant networks could be more efficient and streamlined.

What's telling is there's never been any official statement from any carrier saying that they hated BIS.
That should, I think, tell you all you need to know.

Seems all CB is anymore is rumor lol. Is rumor the NOC is still needed for data activities or is it fact? So BIS is the NOC or not? Yep I've heard both sides of the carrier thing but one was heard years ago and the other rumored lately. So no it doesn't tell me all I need to know.

I'm just trying to gain info here, maybe that isn't possible?

[bobauckland]

Seems all CB is anymore is rumor lol. Is rumor the NOC is still needed for data activities or is it fact? So BIS is the NOC or not? Yep I've heard both sides of the carrier thing but one was heard years ago and the other rumored lately. So no it doesn't tell me all I need to know.

I'm just trying to gain info here, maybe that isn't possible?

I think re the carriers and BIS thing you won't know the truth until someone official makes a statement.
The fact that it's still used for BBM etc tell s me they will continue using the infrastructure, and they will want to monetise it as the same infrastructure was generating revenue for them as recently as a few months ago. I've seen enough to suggest BIS was only dropped as they couldn't get it to play nice, but time will tell. There are no definitive answers for now.

Re the data bit, I have not heard one single Z10 user claim to have access to data activities, like browsing or email, when connected to their carrier network only without being connected to the BlackBerry network.
But this connection to BlackBerry's network, on most networks at least, is no longer a paid requirement for BB10 so far, and does not carry a lot of the advantages it used to.

[dejongj]

Yeah, for some reason there are carriers in the UK, and apparently at least one in Canada that seem to think they need to still sell customers "BIS SIMs".

I think they may just be confused.

Not just confused, based on some testing I'm developing a theory that those could be the cause for some of the unexplained phenomena and the differences in experience some of us seem to have.

[dejongj]

I think re the carriers and BIS thing you won't know the truth until someone official makes a statement.
The fact that it's still used for BBM etc tell s me they will continue using the infrastructure, and they will want to monetise it as the same infrastructure was generating revenue for them as recently as a few months ago. I've seen enough to suggest BIS was only dropped as they couldn't get it to play nice, but time will tell. There are no definitive answers for now.

Re the data bit, I have not heard one single Z10 user claim to have access to data activities, like browsing or email, when connected to their carrier network only without being connected to the BlackBerry network.
But this connection to BlackBerry's network, on most networks at least, is no longer a paid requirement for BB10 so far, and does not carry a lot of the advantages it used to.

Well here is that user As I described, I disabled my blackberry ID account and I was still able to send/receive email and browse the internet. It is flipping annoying though as the phone keeps on bugging me for my blackberry id and password. It seems to be nothing more than in indicator for their 'cloud' service for bbm and that it is reachable

[bobauckland]

Well here is that user As I described, I disabled my blackberry ID account and I was still able to send/receive email and browse the internet. It is flipping annoying though as the phone keeps on bugging me for my blackberry id and password. It seems to be nothing more than in indicator for their 'cloud' service for bbm and that it is reachable

But but... Regardless of the non log in to your BlackBerry ID, can you confirm that you can carry out data related activities when you are connected to your carrier's data network but not the BlackBerry network? If so, I'm willing to accept it may not be widespread.

[kbz1960]

I think re the carriers and BIS thing you won't know the truth until someone official makes a statement.
The fact that it's still used for BBM etc tell s me they will continue using the infrastructure, and they will want to monetise it as the same infrastructure was generating revenue for them as recently as a few months ago. I've seen enough to suggest BIS was only dropped as they couldn't get it to play nice, but time will tell. There are no definitive answers for now.

Re the data bit, I have not heard one single Z10 user claim to have access to data activities, like browsing or email, when connected to their carrier network only without being connected to the BlackBerry network.
But this connection to BlackBerry's network, on most networks at least, is no longer a paid requirement for BB10 so far, and does not carry a lot of the advantages it used to.

Thanks, another question. Do we know the BB symbol means a NOC connection or its just there because people are use to seeing it?

[dejongj]

But but... Regardless of the non log in to your BlackBerry ID, can you confirm that you can carry out data related activities when you are connected to your carrier's data network but not the BlackBerry network? If so, I'm willing to accept it may not be widespread.

Well I can confirm that I am not authenticated again their network. However since there is no hosts file where I can block a route for the traffic to go to the blackberry network I can't no. So to further confirm, when I take the sim out and are on WiFi only again there is no issue with any network/data activity. Naturally my phone won't have a BIS plan on it (which the sim never had anyway)....

I really can't see any evidence that even hints on the symbol indicating an arbtrar on whether you can do data to other locations or not.

Happy to do any further test you can think off.

[bobauckland]

Well I can confirm that I am not authenticated again their network. However since there is no hosts file where I can block a route for the traffic to go to the blackberry network I can't no. So to further confirm, when I take the sim out and are on WiFi only again there is no issue with any network/data activity. Naturally my phone won't have a BIS plan on it (which the sim never had anyway)....

I really can't see any evidence that even hints on the symbol indicating an arbtrar on whether you can do data to other locations or not.

Happy to do any further test you can think off.

I'll keep it very simple.
No connection to BlackBerry servers as evidence by BlackBerry logo, no data activities on the Z10. Not over Wifi or network.
It's that simple.

[kbz1960]

I'll keep it very simple.
No connection to BlackBerry servers as evidence by BlackBerry logo, no data activities on the Z10. Not over Wifi or network.
It's that simple.

And we have proof the BB symbol means a NOC connection or just a bb way of showing carrier connection?

[mefretwell]

Thank you for this! Some straight answers to what many percieve as a bad move on BBRY's part, You've helped answer some of my questions

Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk

[mparker]

But but... Regardless of the non log in to your BlackBerry ID, can you confirm that you can carry out data related activities when you are connected to your carrier's data network but not the BlackBerry network? If so, I'm willing to accept it may not be widespread.

I didn't even bother entering my Blackberry ID for the first few days, and was able to use it just fine for email and browsing. I finally entered my ID so I could pick up some apps from BB World. I didn't try BBM during that period, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work either.

[mparker]

And we have proof the BB symbol means a NOC connection or just a bb way of showing carrier connection?

I had the BB symbol even during the first few days with my phone before I entered my BB ID. But it's possible that these phones can get to the NOC in some limited fashion based on just their internal serial number. I was able to browse BB World without an ID, for example, but couldn't buy anything until I entered my BB ID.

[bobauckland]

And we have proof the BB symbol means a NOC connection or just a bb way of showing carrier connection?

Let's put it this way, on a legacy BB device, if you put in a non BIS equipped SIM, you'd get the carrier signal but not the BlackBerry logo, and BlackBerry related data would not work.
If you equipped BIS on your plan, you'd get the BlackBerry symbol.
Same deal here except the symbol now shows up for everyone on the Z10 as they are allowing some sort of connection to their servers without paying for it.
This is why BBM, despite still going through their servers, now works on the new BlackBerries even without BIS on the plan. It's still going through their servers though.
Seems fairly clear cut?

[robsteve]

I had the BB symbol even during the first few days with my phone before I entered my BB ID. But it's possible that these phones can get to the NOC in some limited fashion based on just their internal serial number. I was able to browse BB World without an ID, for example, but couldn't buy anything until I entered my BB ID.

It may just be that simple, using a BlackBerry device, with a valid PIN or serial number gives you access to the NOC whether using wifi or cellular data.

[kbz1960]

Let's put it this way, on a legacy BB device, if you put in a non BIS equipped SIM, you'd get the carrier signal but not the BlackBerry logo, and BlackBerry related data would not work.
If you equipped BIS on your plan, you'd get the BlackBerry symbol.
Same deal here except the symbol now shows up for everyone on the Z10 as they are allowing some sort of connection to their servers without paying for it.
This is why BBM, despite still going through their servers, now works on the new BlackBerries even without BIS on the plan. It's still going through their servers though.
Seems fairly clear cut?

Do you have a link on that? Just because in the past that is what it meant doesn't mean it applies now. Some carriers show LTE some show 4G some show whatever. I'd love to see a link.

[dejongj]

Let's put it this way, on a legacy BB device, if you put in a non BIS equipped SIM, you'd get the carrier signal but not the BlackBerry logo, and BlackBerry related data would not work.
If you equipped BIS on your plan, you'd get the BlackBerry symbol.
Same deal here except the symbol now shows up for everyone on the Z10 as they are allowing some sort of connection to their servers without paying for it.
This is why BBM, despite still going through their servers, now works on the new BlackBerries even without BIS on the plan. It's still going through their servers though.
Seems fairly clear cut?

Not it doesn't. All it demonstrates is that it is an indicator that it can reach the servers. It doesn't demonstrate at all that without it you can't do anything else (well besides BBM but that is understandable as a blackberry service, and perhaps travel or all other blackberry hosted services).

I agree it is an indication of connection to their servers, never disagreed with that but you seem to make the link that you can't do anything if you haven't got it and I've not seen any evidence for it. And tracing the network routes suggests that is incorrect.

[bobauckland]

Not it doesn't. All it demonstrates is that it is an indicator that it can reach the servers. It doesn't demonstrate at all that without it you can't do anything else (well besides BBM but that is understandable as a blackberry service, and perhaps travel or all other blackberry hosted services).

I agree it is an indication of connection to their servers, never disagreed with that but you seem to make the link that you can't do anything if you haven't got it and I've not seen any evidence for it. And tracing the network routes suggests that is incorrect.

I'll say this slowly, please read it slowly.
Get a connection to the carrier network or Wifi without the BlackBerry symbol showing up indicating access to their servers and see if any data related activities work

This is my last comment to you on this matter.

[bobauckland]

Do you have a link on that? Just because in the past that is what it meant doesn't mean it applies now. Some carriers show LTE some show 4G some show whatever. I'd love to see a link.

http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...y-dots-478494/

For the love of god... - BlackBerry Forums Support Community

http://forums.crackberry.com/general...corner-582577/

http://forums.crackberry.com/general...7/#post6024463

There's only so much evidence anyone can provide.
If you want to believe it, that's fine. If not, so be it.

[dejongj]

I'll keep it very simple.
No connection to BlackBerry servers as evidence by BlackBerry logo, no data activities on the Z10. Not over Wifi or network.
It's that simple.

You are making a leap of faith there. The only time I haven't seen the blackberry logo is when I haven't got a data connection. That doesn't mean that without the BlackBerry logo you don't get a data connection. The modem of the phone will establish that connection with your network provider, the network provider provides the routing out of their network, if you haven't got a BIS plan you don't go to BIS servers on the carriers network...You leave their network and have a route across the internet to the blackberry servers just like you have to anything else.

However you seem to be suggesting that blackberry is proxying (or something of that ilk) all data traffic and determine whether you are worthy or not...

Now lets just imagine the scenario that you are right, that would be a pretty explosive news scenario. I have no contractual agreement with BlackBerry, I've got one with Vodafone and there was no consent given to handover control to a third party.

But regardless of that speculation, my network traces suggest it isn't happening anyway.

[lnichols]

This thread is more opinion based than fact, and also dismisses any counter opinions as lacking knowledge of how things work. I do not believe that BIS is fully dead and will just be BBM, and believe that it will be revived in the distant future via a patent that RIM had granted within the past year that would basically kick in a BIS-like service when the phone drops to 2G or roaming/international roaming situations. When in 3G/4G coverage and/or not roaming the phone would directly go through the Internet and not BIS for services. This would be very advantageous for international travelers who enjoyed being able to enable their BlackBerry International plan option as an add on when they went out of the country and enjoy unlimited web, e-mail and BBM (even Google Maps). This was a great feature that BIS allowed carriers to provide. Also it was nice while in China where the Internet is heavily restricted to get to a US site because I basically had an encrypted tunnel to the US to get to the Internet here. My hope is that BlackBerry brings this patent to reality and simply decided to get BB10 out, and add this advanced value add functionality of SmartBIS, for lack of a better term, to market when they can get the NOC upgraded and things worked out. For people that do a lot of international travel, and don't want to swap SIMs constantly this would be great.

Also I think your overhead theory is out of whack/exaggerated. The overhead would only be an issue with extremely small IP packets for things like voice over IP, where encryption can double the packet size because the additional IP header and payload fill can be as much as the original packet, usually making a VoIP packet use twice as much data with encryption applied. For typical IP traffic (non VoIP) the overhead would be minimal, and the compression, depending on the type of data would likely offset most of it. Delay was more an issue with BIS than overhead.

BIS is/was a very useful service to many people. To simply dismiss it and the people who valued it as uneducated is absurd. Now that BlackBerry is not tied to the ancient Java OS, they should be able to make a BIS like service, and their global network better, and add value to the product offering. They've shown that BIS is no longer mandatory, but that doesn't mean that for some power users that it might not be needed or valued. It simply needed to be optional, and provide for alternative method of working if the NOC is down for some reason and hopefully BlackBerry is still working on this. We already know that they are looking to leverage the NOC infrastructure for car manufactures vehicle communications, telematics, and medical communications. I see no reason not to add SmartBIS services for customers who want it.

[dejongj]

http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...y-dots-478494/

What proof is in that thread at all? yes you have connection to BB services, that is not the same as that without it you don't have other data services available.

For the love of god... - BlackBerry Forums Support Community

That is from 2009, didn't realise BB10 was out then

http://forums.crackberry.com/general...corner-582577/

That is from 2011, didn't realise BB10 was out then

http://forums.crackberry.com/general...7/#post6024463

That is the same from 2011

There's only so much evidence anyone can provide.
If you want to believe it, that's fine. If not, so be it.

Sorry BobAuckland, but if that is your evidence I would suggest the case doesn't even get to court. Now I honestly believe that you think you have issues with your Z10, but it doesn't help your case to drag up totally unrelated items....

I would like to get to the bottom of this, do you as well and do you want to get factual on the issues you encounter or not? I mean so far you have said you experience this when the 3G was switching. I don't think there is anyone who would suggest you shouldn't be experiencing it then....

What about at other times? Can you explain to any of us how you disable the BB symbol to simulate what it is that you are experiencing?

[kbz1960]

http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...y-dots-478494/

For the love of god... - BlackBerry Forums Support Community

http://forums.crackberry.com/general...corner-582577/

http://forums.crackberry.com/general...7/#post6024463

There's only so much evidence anyone can provide.
If you want to believe it, that's fine. If not, so be it.

All those links are old and apply to legacy BBOS. I thought this was a new OS that works different.

[bobauckland]

As I say, there's only so much anyone can provide.

I tried playing nice dejong, but I'm not prepared to have you 'help' me because, frankly, I know more than you about this, and I don't really know a lot in the grand scheme so that's saying something.

kbz, believe what you want, I'm not fussed.

I've explained what the symbol is. I've explained that without it legacy devices couldn't get any data related services to work.

I've explained that the symbol is on the new devices as well at times. I've explained that without it data services don't work.
They're all BlackBerries. They all need that symbol for data services.

At this point I can't help you'll anymore. I've wasted a nice morning off trying to help you'll but that's just it, it's a waste of my time.
There's nothing wrong with my device, or BelfastDispatcher's device, or anyone's device.

I should have taken my own advice to Belfast hours ago, and just stopped banging my head against a brick wall.

[kbz1960]

As I say, there's only so much anyone can provide.

I tried playing nice dejong, but I'm not prepared to have you 'help' me because, frankly, I know more than you about this, and I don't really know a lot in the grand scheme so that's saying something.

kbz, believe what you want, I'm not fussed.

I've explained what the symbol is. I've explained that without it legacy devices couldn't get any data related services to work.

I've explained that the symbol is on the new devices as well at times. I've explained that without it data services don't work.
They're all BlackBerries. They all need that symbol for data services.

At this point I can't help you'll anymore. I've wasted a nice morning off trying to help you'll but that's just it, it's a waste of my time.
There's nothing wrong with my device, or BelfastDispatcher's device, or anyone's device.

I should have taken my own advice to Belfast hours ago, and just stopped banging my head against a brick wall.

Listen to yourself and do just that. Again everything is opinion or speculation. You say things don't work, someone else says they do. Toss a coin.