1. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    So the first shoe has dropped on bb10, with our loss of BlackBerryWorld and BBID (can it be resurrected in some form???). The other shoe is threatening to happen at various times in the future. Maybe a few years in Canada, longer in parts of Europe, but 3g is headed for a turn off at the end of 2022 in the US. I have to wonder what litigious Americans are going to think when the maps app and telemetry on their smart displays in their 2018 model automobiles stops working when 3g gets turned down. I wonder how the American Automobile Association is going to react? Not to mention owners of all those older phones. I assumed it would be much older vehicles affected, but no, lots of 2015's and later. Interesting. Perhaps an external 5g think-a-ma-jig radio through the usb port stick might work for both the auto and the older BlackBerry and billions of older androids, what do you think?
    (Correction: there are lists on auto blogs covering vehicles affected, the range is 2010 up to 2021!)
    01-16-22 11:40 AM
  2. bencuri's Avatar
    It is not only the automobile sector that is affected. Metering devices that work happily on 2G and that are usually purchased for very longterm use will stop working as well. For example in the UK they are still being deployed due to longterm contracts, and according to recent plans, they won't serve until there lifecycle ends. I wonder how the companies that purcahsed these for longterm use in large quantity will address this problem. Because it means they will have to replace all the expensive equipment that took years to deploy. Cellular companies are overkilling this wireless network thing.
    NYC_UnitedLimo likes this.
    01-16-22 11:52 AM
  3. pdr733's Avatar
    Ed. reply to #2

    Look, I see where you are coming from: you are afraid that the BB10 phone you cling to will be not functional because of mobile network changes. But you can be relieved: it will stop working way earlier when 2G is going away in Europe. The country you are from doesn't plan to shut down 2G before the end of this decade.
    I didn't see any short term 2G sunset plans for the UK either. To my knowledge the only European country which is shutting down 2G around the same time as the US (or already did) is Switzerland.
    Probably the UK does have a plan to migrate these smart meters before they shut down the frequency they operate on.
    I the US precisely carmakers and home alarm companies did lobby repeatedly to postpone the shutdown (e.g. Verizon shutdown was originally planned for 31 Dec 2020, it got 2 yr extension and it wasn't the first)
    So I assume carmakers did plan for the upcoming shutdown already.
    Most people owning old phones will be transitioning to newer modern devices in every country, many cases subsidizes by the carriers and/or the national or regional government. There are VoLTE enabled feature ("dumb") phones, nobody is forced to use a smartphone who didn't use one before. I fail to see how this is going to be a big upheaval for most people outside a small minority of BBOS/BB10 clingers.

    PS. I am not American or Canadian but have a rough idea about what happens in their telecom market.
    01-16-22 12:14 PM
  4. howarmat's Avatar
    This has been knowledge for years. LTE modems have been installed in most modem equipment though for many years. Both my 2014 BMW and 2015 Audi do have 3g modems and the manufacturers both have notified people that they will lost some connected features. BMW sent an email over a year ago warning. My security company swapped out its 3g modem for LTE one 3 years ago for me. Sucks to lose the functions sure but I don’t worry to much and more on with life.

    Its not like all these companies are not in the loop for several years with the shutdown. There will be lots of things that “fail” when towers get shutdown but that is because companies ignored or dont care about the functions. If they did they would have upgraded the the devices.
    01-16-22 12:21 PM
  5. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    So the first shoe has dropped on bb10, with our loss of BlackBerryWorld and BBID (can it be resurrected in some form???). The other shoe is threatening to happen at various times in the future. Maybe a few years in Canada, longer in parts of Europe, but 3g is headed for a turn off at the end of 2022 in the US. I have to wonder what litigious Americans are going to think when the maps app and telemetry on their smart displays in their 2018 model automobiles stops working when 3g gets turned down. I wonder how the American Automobile Association is going to react? Not to mention owners of all those older phones. I assumed it would be much older vehicles affected, but no, lots of 2015's and later. Interesting. Perhaps an external 5g think-a-ma-jig radio through the usb port stick might work for both the auto and the older BlackBerry and billions of older androids, what do you think?
    (Correction: there are lists on auto blogs covering vehicles affected, the range is 2010 up to 2021!)
    In the USA, 3G shutdown for devices is a non-event since the carriers have long ago sold VoLTE supported devices and warned everyone affected to upgrade for at least 2 years.

    As far as vehicles go, when analog mobile was shutdown, people were affected in a similar manner, but purchasing upgrade kits solved the problem.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-16-22 12:27 PM
  6. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    It is not only the automobile sector that is affected. Metering devices that work happily on 2G and that are usually purchased for very longterm use will stop working as well. For example in the UK they are still being deployed due to longterm contracts, and according to recent plans, they won't serve until there lifecycle ends. I wonder how the companies that purcahsed these for longterm use in large quantity will address this problem. Because it means they will have to replace all the expensive equipment that took years to deploy. Cellular companies are overkilling this wireless network thing.
    The mobile technology companies sell replacements, happily and those companies just pass the costs on to end users like usual.
    01-16-22 12:29 PM
  7. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    The mobile technology companies sell replacements, happily and those companies just pass the costs on to end users like usual.
    Interesting. For a small markup (lol) automakers are able to install new radios on most or all? of those vehicles. Sounds like its doable for smartphones as well - even if as an external snug attachment to the usb. But imagine buying a 2020 vehicle and finding this out much later.
    01-16-22 02:20 PM
  8. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Interesting. For a small markup (lol) automakers are able to install new radios on most or all? of those vehicles. Sounds like its doable for smartphones as well - even if as an external snug attachment to the usb. But imagine buying a 2020 vehicle and finding this out much later.
    Unless, warranty issues, simply gets treated as necessary upgrade that you can either pay for or not. The automobile companies will scapegoat the mobile industry but aren't objecting because this shutdown has been known and generates additional revenue. It's good for business. Like COVID-19 has been a tremendous boon to delivery services.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-16-22 02:34 PM
  9. joeldf's Avatar
    GM had OnStar for years. They originally used Verizon's CDMA network. They switched to AT&T around 2014, but did so using AT&T's LTE network.

    Some existing late model cars (at the time) could be updated with a module swap-out that would switch it from CDMA to LTE. But not all existing cars were upgradable. Beyond a certain year, once Verizon shuts down the CDMA for good, that's it for those cars. Those owners have been notified of this coming for several years now as noted above, that shutdown kept getting kicked down the road.

    That road is finally coming to an end. You can also be sure that lawyers from all sides have had a look at the situation to reduce the liability from any direction. They've certainly had plenty of time.
    01-16-22 02:52 PM
  10. brookie229's Avatar
    GM had OnStar for years. They originally used Verizon's CDMA network. They switched to AT&T around 2014, but did so using AT&T's LTE network.

    Some existing late model cars (at the time) could be updated with a module swap-out that would switch it from CDMA to LTE. But not all existing cars were upgradable. Beyond a certain year, once Verizon shuts down the CDMA for good, that's it for those cars. Those owners have been notified of this coming for several years now as noted above, that shutdown kept getting kicked down the road.

    That road is finally coming to an end. You can also be sure that lawyers from all sides have had a look at the situation to reduce the liability from any direction. They've certainly had plenty of time.
    Yep, that happened to my 2009 GMC Envoy. The useless module is still under the backseat of my vehicle today (still driving it) and was unable to be swapped out.
    01-16-22 02:58 PM
  11. scrannel's Avatar
    Tesla is offering to upgrade 3g cars prior to 2014 (I think) for about $200.
    01-16-22 04:19 PM
  12. bencuri's Avatar
    Ed. reply to #2

    Look, I see where you are coming from: you are afraid that the BB10 phone you cling to will be not functional because of mobile network changes. But you can be relieved: it will stop working way earlier when 2G is going away in Europe. The country you are from doesn't plan to shut down 2G before the end of this decade.
    I didn't see any short term 2G sunset plans for the UK either. To my knowledge the only European country which is shutting down 2G around the same time as the US (or already did) is Switzerland.
    Probably the UK does have a plan to migrate these smart meters before they shut down the frequency they operate on.
    I the US precisely carmakers and home alarm companies did lobby repeatedly to postpone the shutdown (e.g. Verizon shutdown was originally planned for 31 Dec 2020, it got 2 yr extension and it wasn't the first)
    So I assume carmakers did plan for the upcoming shutdown already.
    Most people owning old phones will be transitioning to newer modern devices in every country, many cases subsidizes by the carriers and/or the national or regional government. There are VoLTE enabled feature ("dumb") phones, nobody is forced to use a smartphone who didn't use one before. I fail to see how this is going to be a big upheaval for most people outside a small minority of BBOS/BB10 clingers.

    PS. I am not American or Canadian but have a rough idea about what happens in their telecom market.
    It is not about my phone primarily, but about the scheme that devices become unusable when actually they are still usable. In the EU where I live, things are going in the opposite direction: for example a ruling is on the way forcing companies to encourage and making available repairing of devices more easily, instead of buying new ones, etc. So there are lots of things happening that aim to keep devices last longer than what the usual lifecycles are at the moment. That's why it is so odd what the telecom sector is doing. I am quite sure that if the telecom sector is planning to go on with this recent scheme in the future, that is disabling devices when they are still functional, at a relatively early stage in their lifecycle, it will ignite some contra ruling here in the EU. And personally I support it because this is a kind of crazy scheme that is going on. This is my own opinion.
    01-16-22 05:03 PM
  13. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    It is not about my phone primarily, but about the scheme that devices become unusable when actually they are still usable. In the EU where I live, things are going in the opposite direction: for example a ruling is on the way forcing companies to encourage and making available repairing of devices more easily, instead of buying new ones, etc. So there are lots of things happening that aim to keep devices last longer than what the usual lifecycles are at the moment. That's why it is so odd what the telecom sector is doing. I am quite sure that if the telecom sector is planning to go on with this recent scheme in the future, that is disabling devices when they are still functional, at a relatively early stage in their lifecycle, it will ignite some contra ruling here in the EU. And personally I support it because this is a kind of crazy scheme that is going on. This is my own opinion.
    The reason for the 5G network introduction and the long announced 3G shutdown is the need for increased bandwidth spectrum. In the USA, our 3G and 4G networks are simply at capacity and that's after most if not all 2G has already been shutdown. We're simply at network capacity and either upgrade or people will be denied services.
    ppeters914 likes this.
    01-16-22 05:40 PM
  14. pdr733's Avatar
    It is not about my phone primarily, but about the scheme that devices become unusable when actually they are still usable. In the EU where I live, things are going in the opposite direction: for example a ruling is on the way forcing companies to encourage and making available repairing of devices more easily, instead of buying new ones, etc. So there are lots of things happening that aim to keep devices last longer than what the usual lifecycles are at the moment. That's why it is so odd what the telecom sector is doing. I am quite sure that if the telecom sector is planning to go on with this recent scheme in the future, that is disabling devices when they are still functional, at a relatively early stage in their lifecycle, it will ignite some contra ruling here in the EU. And personally I support it because this is a kind of crazy scheme that is going on. This is my own opinion.
    I am also from the EU.
    What is not clear to me: what devices among those which are 2G and 3G only are "early stage of their lifecycle" ? Even the newest one of those should be like 6-7 years old. Shutdown of 3G impacts after all mostly those devices which are not LTE compatible - those are very old.
    The situation of BB10 devices is a bit special because they run a defunct OS.
    On the other hand, lifetime of older Android devices (apart from the 3G only ones) is more limited by the lack of software updates then network changes.
    If you have some particular examples of relatively recent devices made obsolete (in EU!) by the shutdown of 3G, it would be appreciated in order to understand what you are referring to.
    ppeters914 and Laura Knotek like this.
    01-16-22 06:41 PM
  15. idssteve's Avatar
    We've deployed & maintained some very remote telemetry over 2g and 3g for many yrs. "Upgrading" has proven challenging for interfacing legacy equipment with the newer transmitters. We've been transitioning some onto RF strategies. Problem solved now and for 6G or 50G... at least so long as politicians keep hands off airwaves? Nothing solid there. Lol.
    01-16-22 07:33 PM
  16. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    We've deployed & maintained some very remote telemetry over 2g and 3g for many yrs. "Upgrading" has proven challenging for interfacing legacy equipment with the newer transmitters. We've been transitioning some onto RF strategies. Problem solved now and for 6G or 50G... at least so long as politicians keep hands off airwaves? Nothing solid there. Lol.
    I'm surprised there is no single use cellphone equivalent of mobile internet devices, with cellular voice, that can be snapped into the usb port of existing phones (replacing the existing sim slot with obsoleted radios). Sounds like it could/should be a standard like usb is. Clearly its doable in automotive. Of course I'm completely ignorant of the favored current industry revenue modelling pertaining to throw-away perfectly good cellphones. Perhaps BlackBerry wasn't savvy as well to some extent. No doubt Android itself is a problem of obsoleting things seemingly too early based on "security issues".
    01-17-22 02:00 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    I'm surprised there is no single use cellphone equivalent of mobile internet devices, with cellular voice, that can be snapped into the usb port of existing phones (replacing the existing sim slot with obsoleted radios). Sounds like it could/should be a standard like usb is. Clearly its doable in automotive. Of course I'm completely ignorant of the favored current industry revenue modelling pertaining to throw-away perfectly good cellphones. Perhaps BlackBerry wasn't savvy as well to some extent. No doubt Android itself is a problem of obsoleting things seemingly too early based on "security issues".
    So create this entire new product line and change the whole design lineage of smartphones in order to accommodate a once-every-ten-year event that only affects a relative handful of people?
    ppeters914 and Laura Knotek like this.
    01-17-22 02:04 PM
  18. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    So create this entire new product line and change the whole design lineage of smartphones in order to accommodate a once-very-ten-year event that only affects a relative handful of people?
    Well how else do you expect BB11 to rise from the BB10 embers, ashes, rubble found on coffee tables worldwide?
    pdr733, ppeters914 and bencuri like this.
    01-17-22 02:08 PM
  19. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    So create this entire new product line and change the whole design lineage of smartphones in order to accommodate a once-very-ten-year event that only affects a relative handful of people?
    Depends when your upgrade cycle is, it isn't once in 10 years if you upgraded only several years ago. As well clearly users on BBOS devices still going today is proof that not everyone wants to play the bi-annual phone toss game. Not sure how much carriers could care either way, as they still get their carrier fees.
    01-17-22 02:10 PM
  20. conite's Avatar
    Depends when your upgrade cycle is, it isn't once in 10 years if you upgraded only several years ago. As well clearly users on BBOS devices still going today is proof that not everyone wants to play the bi-annual phone toss game. Not sure how much carriers could care either way, as they still get their carrier fees.
    What do you mean? 4G has been in phones since 2011 (and VoLTE since 2014), and is still supported - unless you have a outlier device on AT&T (and less so others).

    The circa 2013-2015 BB10 devices (all of them) have an inconsequential user base.
    ppeters914 and Laura Knotek like this.
    01-17-22 02:13 PM
  21. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    So create this entire new product line and change the whole design lineage of smartphones in order to accommodate a once-every-ten-year event that only affects a relative handful of people?
    Not much of a design change. Either modularize the radios (making them replaceable), or allow for external usb ones.
    01-17-22 02:15 PM
  22. conite's Avatar
    Not much of a design change. Either modularize the radios (making them replaceable), or allow for external usb ones.
    Why? For who?

    The power requirements alone for modular or external modems would be orders of magnitude more than 6nm units within SoCs.

    You're inventing expensive solutions for a problem that doesn't exist.
    01-17-22 02:17 PM
  23. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    What do you mean? 4G has been in phones since 2011 (and VoLTE since 2014), and is still supported - unless you have a outlier device on AT&T.

    The circa 2013-2015 BB10 devices (all of then) have an inconsequential user base.
    So all 4g BB10 devices, and others should work on AT&T today then.
    01-17-22 02:20 PM
  24. conite's Avatar
    So all 4g BB10 devices, and others should work on AT&T today then.
    No. Those qualify as outlier devices.

    The Samsung Galaxy S5 from Feb 2014 is still fully supported, along with the LG G3 (May 2014).

    8 year old phones, even flagships like these, are barely usable today - and it has nothing to do with the radios. You can thank Moore's Law for that.
    ppeters914 and Laura Knotek like this.
    01-17-22 02:21 PM
  25. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Why? For who?

    The power requirements alone for modular or external modems would be orders of magnitude more than 6nm units within SoCs.

    You're inventing expensive solutions for a problem that doesn't exist.
    5000 Mah powerpacks (or less) are negligible costwise, could be integrated into the modem as a short hop power source integrated on a 6nm modularized radio chip. I mean how much power is typically consumed by the cellular and/or Wifi radio , versus the rest of the smartphone anyways. 3%, 10%,20% 40%? Just musing out loud. Don't tell me simply transferring data through the USB interface is going to increase power consumption on an order of magnitude greater than the internal path such that it deeply affects overall power consumption.
    01-17-22 02:30 PM
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