12-19-15 02:20 AM
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  1. BBHermes's Avatar
    Greetings,

    In this forum I keep seeing things roughly equivalent to,

    "After releasing the PRIV, it is now illegal for BB to update the Android runtime."

    But what is the proof? From Wiki:

    "OHA members are contractually forbidden from producing devices that are based on incompatible forks of Android."

    But BB is not a member of OHA: Alliance Members | Open Handset Alliance

    And Android is Open Source, so what's the problem if BB has one version that matches OHA official and another for its runtime? And what's to stop BB from writing a runtime based on virtualization such as the old Wine (on Linux) for Windows? Except that QNX is so much more compatible than to Android (both based on Unix). And don't the special security keys that BB has inserted within Android make its version a fork anyway?

    My sense is that all the whining about it now being illegal for BB to continue developing the runtime is just a lot of fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD). One result of this is that, ironically, BB could hide behind a figleaf of FUD as an excuse to stop doing what they have every right and *obligation* to do for its BB10 customers. And readers of this forum will stop buying BB10 phones, contributing to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    If I'm wrong (and perhaps I am), I'd like to see the proof. If not, we should stop spreading nonsense, stop acting like drama queens, and in a united voice continue to press BB for continued development of the product we have all invested in -- including the runtime. Customers and users are also investors in this sense. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot with self-fulfilling prophecies and urban myths that let BB off the hook on this one.

    More succinctly: If there is solid proof of this rumor, put it up. Otherwise, kindly shut up.
    12-17-15 09:22 AM
  2. Soulstream's Avatar
    All contracts between Google and OEM partners are not public (and may differ from partner to partner), so the exact details are unclear.

    But, we can deduce from the past that Goole doesn't really like people using Android code for other products. A few years back, Acer wanted to launch some other product, and Google accused them of using Android code for that product and threatened them to terminate the licence for google play services (Google: Acer Can't Work On "Non-Compatible Android" & Be Part Of Open Handset Alliance)

    Also BB mentioned themselves that they are supporting the CURRENT version of the runtime. Also, the next 2 planned BB10 OS verisons are mostly maintenance patches. And I don't see BB putting the Android runtime features above BB10 featus in terms of priority.

    Google holds most of the power when licencing Google play services and I am 99% sure they included something in the contract to "persuade" BB to stop upgrading the BB10 runtime. Of course, BB could at any time leave Android and return to BB10 and update the runtime, but that road has alrady proven to be unprofitable.
    12-17-15 09:45 AM
  3. thurask's Avatar
    Greetings,

    In this forum I keep seeing things roughly equivalent to,

    "After releasing the PRIV, it is now illegal for BB to update the Android runtime."

    But what is the proof? From Wiki:

    "OHA members are contractually forbidden from producing devices that are based on incompatible forks of Android."

    But BB is not a member of OHA: Alliance Members | Open Handset Alliance

    And Android is Open Source, so what's the problem if BB has one version that matches OHA official and another for its runtime? And what's to stop BB from writing a runtime based on virtualization such as the old Wine (on Linux) for Windows? Except that QNX is so much more compatible than to Android (both based on Unix). And don't the special security keys that BB has inserted within Android make its version a fork anyway?

    My sense is that all the whining about it now being illegal for BB to continue developing the runtime is just a lot of fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD). One result of this is that, ironically, BB could hide behind a figleaf of FUD as an excuse to stop doing what they have every right and *obligation* to do for its BB10 customers. And readers of this forum will stop buying BB10 phones, contributing to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    If I'm wrong (and perhaps I am), I'd like to see the proof. If not, we should stop spreading nonsense, stop acting like drama queens, and in a united voice continue to press BB for continued development of the product we have all invested in -- including the runtime. Customers and users are also investors in this sense. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot with self-fulfilling prophecies and urban myths that let BB off the hook on this one.

    More succinctly: If there is solid proof of this rumor, put it up. Otherwise, kindly shut up.
    First, that page is out of date (notice how TAT is still considered as a separate, existing entity)?

    Second, in order to produce a Google-sanctioned Android phone (in the first world, at least), one must be in compliance with the OHA regulation stipulated in your post.

    Third, BlackBerry's rounds of layoffs means that there are fewer if any BB10 programmers left employed.

    Now, the Priv OS is, for all intents and purposes, vanilla Android 5.1. While there may be some cryptographic signing under the hood, the end result is perfectly compliant with Google's Android. All of the frameworks (including sweet sweet Google Play Services) are there.

    So while Android is open source, Google Play Services are not. Amazon tried to create an ecosystem based on forked Android without Play Services with the Fire phone, and you can guess how well that went for them. It is suicide for BlackBerry to think that what they know was a boondoggle for Amazon would magically work for them.

    As for pulling some virtualization system out of their arse, again, where is the manpower and resources to do so? At least you had the courtesy to not say "hypervisor", then I'd think you're trolling.

    Putting those together, even if they wanted to upgrade the runtime with the skeleton crew they had, it won't improve the chances of BB10 if it doesn't have access to what people want; their apps, and without workarounds or other voodoo.

    The announcement that BlackBerry will support the current release of the Android runtime (http://devblog.blackberry.com/2015/1...10-developers/) does not support your argument; even if BlackBerry could upgrade the runtime based on turning one night's worth of manpower into eight nights' worth and coloring outside the lines with regards to the OHA, they aren't going to. BB10 is on the back burner (no Android updates, no new SDKs, no Qt5).

    In short, read between the lines. Alternatively, enter a safe space and believe that BB10 will magically upgrade the runtime, tap dance its way out of its coma and take the world by storm on a shoestring budget and the prayers of dozens.
    Last edited by thurask; 12-17-15 at 10:13 AM.
    12-17-15 09:49 AM
  4. Mecca EL's Avatar
    Here's a factual rumor...Hypervisor!!! And Dual Boot!!!
    12-17-15 10:04 AM
  5. anon(9208252)'s Avatar
    What's a torrent ???
    Mecca EL likes this.
    12-17-15 10:06 AM
  6. 3hb78ftg's Avatar
    What's a torrent ???
    It's what tanks have. t('-')t
    12-17-15 10:09 AM
  7. anon(9208252)'s Avatar
    Here's a factual rumor...Hypervisor!!! And Dual Boot!!!
    What's Hypervisor, is that the hat Tiger wears.
    Mecca EL, eldricho and kbz1960 like this.
    12-17-15 10:12 AM
  8. Mecca EL's Avatar
    What's Hypervisor, is that the hat Tiger wears.
    Nah, it's what BlackBerry engineers wear, to hide from cyberstalkers and their stupid theories.
    12-17-15 10:27 AM
  9. BBHermes's Avatar
    In short, read between the lines.
    Thanks for the detailed reply; much appreciated. In the end, we have only speculation, not proof, that BlackBerry is legally required to stop development of its runtime. I personally am not convinced that BlackBerry would sign away its rights to develop the runtime to Google, and could argue that in some detail. But that is also speculation, not proof.

    The solution is for CB editors or others to press BlackBerry for a clean answer. At the moment, we simply don't know. In the meantime, let's stop reporting speculation as fact. Once BlackBerry clears it up one way or the other, then that's another matter.


    Posted via CB10
    12-17-15 10:30 AM
  10. kirson's Avatar
    Thanks for the detailed reply; much appreciated. In the end, we have only speculation, not proof, that BlackBerry is legally required to stop development of its runtime. I personally am not convinced that BlackBerry would sign away its rights to develop the runtime to Google, and could argue that in some detail. But that is also speculation, not proof.

    The solution is for CB editors or others to press BlackBerry for a clean answer. At the moment, we simply don't know. In the meantime, let's stop reporting speculation as fact. Once BlackBerry clears it up one way or the other, then that's another matter.

    Posted via CB10
    Lack of proof is not the same as complete uncertainty. Based on a lot of circumstantial evidence, it is very likely the runtime will not be further developed. And I firmly believe that Blackberry will NEVER "clear it up" - why in the world would they? It would be a bad news story that they have no reason to tell.
    ubizmo likes this.
    12-17-15 10:51 AM
  11. thurask's Avatar
    The solution is for CB editors or others to press BlackBerry for a clean answer. At the moment, we simply don't know. In the meantime, let's stop reporting speculation as fact. Once BlackBerry clears it up one way or the other, then that's another matter.
    BlackBerry may be dumb (see anything between 2011 and 2013), but they're not so dumb that they Osborne whatever last drops of revenue can come from BB10. If they say anything, it'll be exactly like their developer notice about 10.3.3/10.3.4; they will continue to support BB10, but to what degree is left unclear until March (at least).

    Friday's earnings report should be interesting...
    kirson likes this.
    12-17-15 11:38 AM
  12. kirson's Avatar
    Friday's earnings report should be interesting...
    The key word there is "should". It really SHOULD be interesting. But, I suspect that much like other earnings reports under Chen's leadership, they will not be interesting, or particularly informative. What WILL be interesting are the facts we will be able to glean after much research and analysis over the next few days.
    12-17-15 12:06 PM
  13. hoopitz's Avatar
    At this point, i'd be more than ok if BlackBerry left BB10 the way it is, but somehow kept updating the Android runtime. I would gladly jump through hoops to side-load updates. If the stuff that they have been previously working on somehow gets "leaked", surely that wouldn't be their fault
    12-17-15 01:10 PM
  14. Ment's Avatar
    Thanks for the detailed reply; much appreciated. In the end, we have only speculation, not proof, that BlackBerry is legally required to stop development of its runtime. I personally am not convinced that BlackBerry would sign away its rights to develop the runtime to Google, and could argue that in some detail. But that is also speculation, not proof.

    The solution is for CB editors or others to press BlackBerry for a clean answer. At the moment, we simply don't know. In the meantime, let's stop reporting speculation as fact. Once BlackBerry clears it up one way or the other, then that's another matter.


    Posted via CB10
    These are the facts as we know them.
    1) Every device partner with Google must sign a MADA (Mobile Application Distribution Agreement) that outlines the use of Google apps and Google Android. From the leaked HTC MADA of 2010 we know it includes broad language that prohibits HTC from 'takes any action that may cause or result in the fragmentation of Android'.

    2) Google uses the MADA to control Android/Android code via restricting licensing of Google apps and Google Services to those who agree to MADA.

    3) Google has squashed the inclusion of runtime or Android in non-Android devices by the MADA partner: Acer: Aliyun, Samsung-Tizen. HTC-Windows/Android dual boot.

    4) Over time, Google has included more and more restrictions and requirements for its Android partners: last press reports include mandatory 'Powered by Android' on boot, placement and number of Google apps on the homescreen and minimum shipping OS version.

    5) MADA enforcement/interpretation can differ from partner to partner: Google allowed BB to keep the runtime in existing devices but BB has not indicated further development of the runtime in forward looking announcements (Dev Blog).

    6) Manhours devoted to anything OS related is heavily weighted to BB Android and overall the device division employee count has been cut by large amounts. In the PRIV AMA it was indicated that the reason some features weren't included in PRIV were because of prioritization of resources.

    In total, while there is some very slight chance Google would allow another runtime upgrade under MADA, it doesn't benefit them to do so (why encourage BB10 to become a Google Android rival), and there is no evidence BB is pushing to do so.

    Neither Google nor Blackberry is ever going to respond officially to the runtime issue. In recent months, Google has come under more pressure from the EU for its practices with search and doesn't want anything similar to be focused on its dealings with Android code. Blackberry is not eager to focus attention on the runtime because the future of BB10 has not been yet been decided and throwing chum into the water at this point is hurtful to existing device sales and there is no reason to hurt its new relationship with Google as an Android device partner.
    Troy Tiscareno, kirson and dpgo like this.
    12-17-15 01:55 PM
  15. early2bed's Avatar
    Didn't John Chen say that he wanted BB10 users to eventually get what they need from their Android devices?
    12-17-15 02:10 PM
  16. BBHermes's Avatar
    [QUOTE=kirson;12156686]Lack of proof is not the same as complete uncertainty.
    [/QUOTE ]

    You are absolutely right.

    Based on a lot of circumstantial evidence, it is very likely the runtime will not be further developed.
    If you and others are right, it appears to suggest something like the following scenario:

    Development of the PRIV took over a year of top-secret design and implementation. While BlackBerry was selling us all on the Passport, at the same time they were cutting a deal for access to Google Play Services. Based on the detailed descriptions given by others in this thread, the deal with Google is nothing short of Mephistophelian in nature. BlackBerry has, in this scenario, sold its soul and independence to a monopoly interest in a risky bid to get a few crumbs at an already too-crowded table. And they did this while selling us on the Passport and BB10.

    If the above scenario is accurate, then I for one will be quite disgusted with JCh & CO.

    But again this is speculation at this point. See next reply.



    Posted via CB10
    Supa_Fly1 likes this.
    12-17-15 02:49 PM
  17. BBHermes's Avatar
    And I firmly believe that Blackberry will NEVER "clear it up" - why in the world would they? It would be a bad news story that they have no reason to tell.
    If I am a BlackBerry corporate customer interested in purchasing 1000 BB10 phones for my organization, but I need an answer about the runtime future before making a decision, then BlackBerry is not going to give me an answer?

    Etc.

    BlackBerry, according to your scenario, is trying to have its cake and eat it too. Very sleazy if true.


    Posted via CB10
    Supa_Fly1 likes this.
    12-17-15 03:02 PM
  18. Ment's Avatar
    If I am a BlackBerry corporate customer interested in purchasing 1000 BB10 phones for my organization, but I need an answer about the runtime future before making a decision, then BlackBerry is not going to give me an answer?

    Etc.

    BlackBerry, according to your scenario, is trying to have its cake and eat it too. Very sleazy if true.


    Posted via CB10
    Corporate users have no use for the runtime as it cannot be managed by the mobile device management software. Runtime is a consumer issue not enterprise.
    12-17-15 03:18 PM
  19. BBHermes's Avatar
    Corporate users have no use for the runtime as it cannot be managed by the mobile device management software. Runtime is a consumer issue not enterprise.
    Depends on the corporation. Don't forget about BlackBerry Balance etc.

    Anyway, the point is that ambiguity about the runtime can affect major purchase decisions, and senior people in the sales team should have answers...

    But you are right, maybe the constituency for the runtime is smaller than we might think...



    Posted via CB10
    12-17-15 03:32 PM
  20. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    At this point, i'd be more than ok if BlackBerry left BB10 the way it is, but somehow kept updating the Android runtime. I would gladly jump through hoops to side-load updates. If the stuff that they have been previously working on somehow gets "leaked", surely that wouldn't be their fault
    Yes that would be there fault.
    12-17-15 03:33 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    Depends on the corporation. Don't forget about BlackBerry Balance etc.

    Anyway, the point is that ambiguity about the runtime can affect major purchase decisions, and senior people in the sales team should have answers...

    But you are right, maybe the constituency for the runtime is smaller than we might think...



    Posted via CB10
    Corporations were hardly buying BB10 anyway. This is of little concern as most of them wouldn't know an Android Runtime if it hit them over the head.

    BlackBerry has been very clear in my mind, and anyone even casually looking into it would know: BB10 development is essentially over, minor security patches to come, no advancement of the Runtime.

    It would probably be against the law for them to say any more than they have, as it would intentionally cause a total inventory loss, and would invite a visit from the Security and Exchange Commission.
    Last edited by conite; 12-17-15 at 05:10 PM.
    12-17-15 04:58 PM
  22. ssbtech's Avatar
    It would probably be against the law for them to say any more than they have, as it would intentionally cause a total inventory loss, and would invite a visit from the Security and Exchange Commission.
    They've dropped the ball so many times now, they deserve whatever is coming to them.

    My Z30 is likely to be my last BlackBerry ever if they completely move to Android.
    12-17-15 05:38 PM
  23. BBHermes's Avatar
    Corporations were hardly buying BB10 anyway.
    Nonsequitur ;-)

    BlackBerry has been very clear in my mind, and anyone even casually looking into it would know: BB10 development is essentially over, minor security patches to come, no advancement of the Runtime.
    Speculation, not fact or knowledge. "in my mind" makes this a subjective observation, not a statement of objective fact. You may be right but the fat lady has yet to sing.

    Of course you have every right to speculate (and sell or short your shares, or...) but you cannot conflate your speculations with facts. This misleads unsuspecting readers of this forum and harms BB10.

    It would probably be against the law for them to say any more than they have, as it would intentionally cause a total inventory loss, and would invite a visit from the Security and Exchange Commission.
    This last statement makes absolutely no sense ;-) The SEC makes it illegal to tell the truth to investors in and to potential buyers of the product??? Telling the truth => manipulating the stock??? C'mon...

    Indeed, passing off speculations as fact can, in some cases, "invite a visit from the Security and Exchange Commission."
    Randal Yandal likes this.
    12-17-15 05:43 PM
  24. Randal Yandal's Avatar
    Corporations were hardly buying BB10 anyway. This is of little concern as most of them wouldn't know an Android Runtime if it hit them over the head.

    BlackBerry has been very clear in my mind, and anyone even casually looking into it would know: BB10 development is essentially over, minor security patches to come, no advancement of the Runtime.

    It would probably be against the law for them to say any more than they have, as it would intentionally cause a total inventory loss, and would invite a visit from the Security and Exchange Commission.
    Ive noticed all u do is troll crackberry crapping on any positive threads about bb10 or any bb10 development. You're a plague on this site to be frank.

    BlackBerry Z30 (10.3.2)
    magicdesign likes this.
    12-17-15 07:54 PM
  25. Mecca EL's Avatar
    Ive noticed all u do is troll crackberry crapping on any positive threads about bb10 or any bb10 development. You're a plague on this site to be frank.

    BlackBerry Z30 (10.3.2)
    Totally agree!! He does have plaque. I've been telling him to handle for months. Obamacare covers dental.
    conite, anon(9208252) and Mr4aces like this.
    12-17-15 08:05 PM
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