[conite]

They then said BB10 needs 2gb Ram to run before turning around and releasing the Z3 with 1.5gb of RAM so yeah

Although 1.5GB ram on the Z3 is pretty rough going.

[anon(5061193)]

I don't understand how they continue to sell BB10 devices? Why would anyone invest in a dead OS?
I was planning on buying a Passport and now I won't

This sucks..Windows phones are almost dead and BB10is toast..we need more choices not less.

[Rustybronco]

They could be stocking up.

I fully plan on buying another Z30 to keep on the shelf in case mine ever give's up the ghost.

[cbvinh]

Although 1.5GB ram on the Z3 is pretty rough going.

Not to mention that the PlayBook only had 1 GB RAM...

[ppeters914]

This morning I had 3 active windows open so I could order something while I talked to the sales person. What other phone OS can do that?

Posted via CB10 / AT&T /Z10 STL100-3 /10.3.2.2813

[Bluenoser63]

Not to mention that the PlayBook only had 1 GB RAM...

But they didn't have to run a phone. Running a Q10 with 1GB of RAM ( I have one) without turning on the radio isn't a bad experience.

[Deckard79]

BlackBerry are STILL, to this day a company I simply cannot understand.

The move away from BB10 to Android seems logical on the surface, especially considering that BB10 has been a commercial failure (and no longer any window for a turnaround).

What completely baffles me is that their 'push' to Android manifests in the 'Priv' - a device named after a public convenience, built like something out of a dollar store, with an application suite that doesn't live up to the 'privacy' moniker and a pricetag as off-putting as BlackBerry's marketing.

WHY do that?! They CAN build a high quality device. They CAN price it more realistically. They HAVE resources and money to launch with better apps.

But they don't. And there really is no sensible explanation as to why.

Posted via CB10

[early2bed]

WHY do that?! They CAN build a high quality device. They CAN price it more realistically. They HAVE resources and money to launch with better apps.

But they don't. And there really is no sensible explanation as to why.

Well, they can't have maintained much in-house design expertise as John Chen made a big push to outsource a lot of the hardware design and manufacturing. You probably can't expect 1st tier quality given that.

As for price, they have the worst economies of scale in the business given the low volume. Once you get under 5 million devices per year, you don't have much to spread the fixed costs over. The same goes for the native apps which is all fixed cost. Plus, they are trying to "support" two different platforms so that's two of everything and you even have iOS versions of some apps which have to be expensed to somebody.

It all makes sense to me.

[Deckard79]

Well, they can't have maintained much in-house design expertise as John Chen made a big push to outsource a lot of the hardware design and manufacturing. You probably can't expect 1st tier quality given that.

As for price, they have the worst economies of scale in the business given the low volume. Once you get under 5 million devices per year, you don't have much to spread the fixed costs over. The same goes for the native apps which is all fixed cost. Plus, they are trying to "support" two different platforms so that's two of everything and you even have iOS versions of some apps which have to be expensed to somebody.

It all makes sense to me.

Understood, but what we know (at least if Chen's quarterly results call is to be believed) is that BlackBerry turn a substantial profit on each device with Priv. I doubt that build quality accounts for as much of the total device cost as chipset, camera module, screen etc. so surely, conceivably this could have been improved considerably without severely impacting manufacturing costs?

Posted via CB10

[GadgetTravel]

Understood, but what we know (at least if Chen's quarterly results call is to be believed) is that BlackBerry turn a substantial profit on each device with Priv. I doubt that build quality accounts for as much of the total device cost as chipset, camera module, screen etc. so surely, conceivably this could have been improved considerably without severely impacting manufacturing costs?

Posted via CB10

Excellent point. Look at Apple for goodness sake. They make a huge profit per phone. That's what BB as a company should target; a premium Android phone. I haven't seen a Priv yet in person but Priv and even more so Vienna, really interest me.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Understood, but what we know (at least if Chen's quarterly results call is to be believed) is that BlackBerry turn a substantial profit on each device with Priv. I doubt that build quality accounts for as much of the total device cost as chipset, camera module, screen etc. so surely, conceivably this could have been improved considerably without severely impacting manufacturing costs?

Chen himself said that BB needs to sell 5M+ Android phones per year just to break even (it was 10M phones if it was BB10 - a reflection that BB10 costs significantly more for BB to build on and maintain). The Priv isn't close to that at this point.

So, while they make a sizable gross profit on the phone (Sale Price to Distributors minus Parts & Manufacturing Costs), their net profit (Sale Price to Distributors minus all expenses related to the Priv) is still a negative number - just a much smaller negative number than it was for BB10 phones. If Priv + Vienna = 5M or more phones per year, sustained, then they'll break even and start turning a profit. If not, the smartphone division will continue to have losses that continue to leech profits from other parts of the company - until Chen shuts it down for good.

The point is, even at the current price, which most people consider to be high, and even with Google shouldering much of the cost of development, BB is still generating losses with smartphones, and had they continued with BB10, those losses would be far, far higher.

If you've ever watched one of those "business rescue" shows (Kitchen Nightmares, Restaurant Impossible, Bar Rescue, etc.), you'll see that the business owners are drowning in losses despite continuing to generate some revenues (food or drink sales) that turn a gross profit. That's because when sales volumes are low, those gross profits aren't big enough to offset all of the substantial overhead costs of the business: rent/mortgage, utilities, payroll, food/drink inventory, advertising, taxes, maintenance, etc. It's not enough to continue to sell burgers or drinks - they have to get the VOLUME up in order to pay all the overhead and still have money left over, and if they don't, the business goes bankrupt.

That's exactly the situation that BB's smartphone business is in, and moving to Android was a way to lower costs substantially while hopefully making it easier to increase total sales volumes. It's still too early to know if it will work (BB had many other things against it than simple financial losses), but one thing is not in doubt: sticking to BB10 would have killed (at least) the smartphone business already.

[Deckard79]

Chen himself said that BB needs to sell 5M+ Android phones per year just to break even (it was 10M phones if it was BB10 - a reflection that BB10 costs significantly more for BB to build on and maintain). The Priv isn't close to that at this point.

So, while they make a sizable gross profit on the phone (Sale Price to Distributors minus Parts & Manufacturing Costs), their net profit (Sale Price to Distributors minus all expenses related to the Priv) is still a negative number - just a much smaller negative number than it was for BB10 phones. If Priv + Vienna = 5M or more phones per year, sustained, then they'll break even and start turning a profit. If not, the smartphone division will continue to have losses that continue to leech profits from other parts of the company - until Chen shuts it down for good.

The point is, even at the current price, which most people consider to be high, and even with Google shouldering much of the cost of development, BB is still generating losses with smartphones, and had they continued with BB10, those losses would be far, far higher.

If you've ever watched one of those "business rescue" shows (Kitchen Nightmares, Restaurant Impossible, Bar Rescue, etc.), you'll see that the business owners are drowning in losses despite continuing to generate some revenues (food or drink sales) that turn a gross profit. That's because when sales volumes are low, those gross profits aren't big enough to offset all of the substantial overhead costs of the business: rent/mortgage, utilities, payroll, food/drink inventory, advertising, taxes, maintenance, etc. It's not enough to continue to sell burgers or drinks - they have to get the VOLUME up in order to pay all the overhead and still have money left over, and if they don't, the business goes bankrupt.

That's exactly the situation that BB's smartphone business is in, and moving to Android was a way to lower costs substantially while hopefully making it easier to increase total sales volumes. It's still too early to know if it will work (BB had many other things against it than simple financial losses), but one thing is not in doubt: sticking to BB10 would have killed (at least) the smartphone business already.

Good post, thanks. I understand and agree with a lot of what you are saying, but the need to deliver a higher VOLUME of sales in order to break even isn't going to be met with a product like Priv. Cutting a few dollars per unit in materials is a false economy when competing, pricewise, with PREMIUM handsets that are of a visibly higher build quality, because very few consumers will choose Priv over more popular alternatives.

This approach is self-defeating.

Posted via CB10

[Superfly_FR]

Excellent point. Look at Apple for goodness sake. They make a huge profit per phone. That's what BB as a company should target; a premium Android phone. I haven't seen a Priv yet in person but Priv and even more so Vienna, really interest me.

because they sell by hundreds millions !
It's not a proportional ratio. You just can't make the same % gains when you're 100 times smaller. In no dream.

Posted via CB10

[gruv4u]

It seems as though Crackberry has become a haven for trolls. It also seems like CrackBerry's admins are cool with that.

Not enjoying it like I used to. BlackBerry can do what it needs to survive. I ain't trippin about that. I like this platform and until I choose to move on ( or whatever), I would like to deal with CB! If becomes less Enjoyable, I'm sure me and other community members would stop coming here.

 Z10 STL 100-3 with vitamin (SR) 10.3.2.2836 (OS version 10.3.2.2876) on AT&T

[BigBadWulf]

It seems as though Crackberry has become a haven for trolls. It also seems like CrackBerry's admins are cool with that.

Not enjoying it like I used to. BlackBerry can do what it needs to survive. I ain't trippin about that. I like this platform and until I choose to move on ( or whatever), I would like to deal with CB! If becomes less Enjoyable, I'm sure me and other community members would stop coming here.

 Z10 STL 100-3 with vitamin (SR) 10.3.2.2836 (OS version 10.3.2.2876) on AT&T

What does this have to do with the thread?

Just to be clear, and if you need to discuss this further PM me, we're not chummy with trolls. We're open to allowing discussion involving differing opinion. This thread started because of what a BlackBerry executive said. We've had many complain lately there isn't enough about BB10 on CrackBerry. Well, here's something, like it or not. You can choose to disagree, but this thread is anything but trolling. Taking a thread off topic to complain about the forum and it's membership. Now that's trolling.

And now back on topic...

[GadgetTravel]

because they sell by hundreds millions !
It's not a proportional ratio. You just can't make the same % gains when you're 100 times smaller. In no dream.

Posted via CB10

So do some Android vendors. But the profit per unit matters as well as the number of units.

[Vistaus]

You don't think its worse that Google dominates the internet? Microsoft dominates only in desktop software, Google, Gmail, Youtube is the predominate home page/search provider/web mail/Video streaming service.

Outlook.com is the second predominate Web mail though, the user base (as far as possible to tell since neither Google nor MS has accurate figures) of Outlook.com is not that far behind on Gmail.

Posted via CB10 using BlackBerry Passport (OG Red)

[xtremeled]

It says "may" not "is"

Posted via CB10

You hold on to that. Playbook owners did the same thing. You do remember how that played out right?

[Bla1ze]

And as punishment for letting those comments slip, Chen will put him in charge of clearing all remaining BB10 inventory,.. while making him personally foot the bill for any negative margin.

Lol

Posted via CB10

Oddly enough, it's nothing Chen (and various other execs like Ron Louks) hasn't said before. They just found nicer ways to say it.

[Stessierere]

I don't understand how they continue to sell BB10 devices? Why would anyone invest in a dead OS?
I was planning on buying a Passport and now I won't

This sucks..Windows phones are almost dead and BB10is toast..we need more choices not less.

They'll continue to sell them because the devices and the OS in its current state are perfectly suitable for many people. Some folks will buy one even if they are phasing out the OS because it works for them as-is. Would I spend $700 on a BB10 device right now? No. Did I just spend $149 on a Leap? Yes. At $149, the phone is almost at a "disposable" price. I like BB10, and I wanted to try an all-touch device (have had Q10/Classic). I don't play a bunch of games. I *do* send email and a whole slew of texts. I do some web browsing and social media. This OS will work for me for the foreseeable future as long as my needs don't change. I don't need apps to continually be developed or features to be added to the OS. It's fine right now.

Heck, I sometimes go on a smartphone hiatus and use a flip phone. LOL For people like me, BB can never develop the OS further and we'll still be fine so long as they provide security updates.

[adr972]

This morning I had 3 active windows open so I could order something while I talked to the sales person. What other phone OS can do that?

Posted via CB10 / AT&T /Z10 STL100-3 /10.3.2.2813

Multitasking is the essence of BB10, when I compare it to Android 's 'widgets' i.e. browser 's 'pages' remaining open, I just can't believe to their usefulness, as a matter of fact I spend too much time to keep running the Android phone. My Z30 is helpful in doing many things, on the other hand

Posted via CB10

[magicdesign]

IMO consumers who know nothing about BlackBerry and qwerty keyboards are not going to take a risk and spend a lot of money on a premium handset. The only chance they had (and it's probably too late now) was to release a cheaper handset where people might spend a couple of hundred dollars just to try it out.

[sportline]

The guy is probably at the end of his employment.

Passport SE

[JeepBB]

Good post, thanks. I understand and agree with a lot of what you are saying, but the need to deliver a higher VOLUME of sales in order to break even isn't going to be met with a product like Priv. Cutting a few dollars per unit in materials is a false economy when competing, pricewise, with PREMIUM handsets that are of a visibly higher build quality, because very few consumers will choose Priv over more popular alternatives.

This approach is self-defeating.

Yes, I agree that the Priv will not bring them to anything like the 5M break-even volume needed. Which is why I continue to believe that the long-term goal is not to sustain hardware as a viable business, but merely to get some short-term revenue from the Priv (and the Vienna when it finally gets released) in order to complete the company's much-publicised goal of transitioning to software. And then the Priv will be allowed to die... just like the BB10 handsets... there'll be no announcement (just as there wasn't with BB10), it'll just be that there will be no successor device to the Priv - ever!

At that point, BB10 history will repeat. The uber-fans will insist that a successor device to the Priv is coming, that BB doesn't need to play by the same annual device refresh rules as everyone else in the industry, and that anyway their Priv still works great and no better device could possibly be created.

In time, it will become generally realised that BB is out of the hardware business - not because of any announcement but because of the simple truth that they won't have released a new phone in the previous couple of years.

[Nick Spagnolo]

IMO it seems to me that BlackBerry is building their own Android product. Please the BlackBerry Fans by bringing us a complete blackberry 10 experience within the Android device

Z10