01-13-15 05:09 PM
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  1. conite's Avatar
    Well, that's exactly the point of having others make it...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    But it's not. They still have to get that $200 per unit back regardless of who makes it. This $200 per unit would have to be the licensing fee to use the OS. And whoever manufactures it needs to get another $150 to recoup their production cost. It works out the same.

    Google can afford to give the OS away for free, because it makes its money from their ecosystem - something BlackBerry doesn't enjoy at the moment. BlackBerry needs that $200 per unit immediately to keep the lights on and continue development of the OS.


    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    01-12-15 06:01 AM
  2. slagman5's Avatar
    But it's not. They still have to get that $200 per unit back regardless of who makes it. This $200 per unit would have to be the licensing fee to use the OS. And whoever manufactures it needs to get another $150 to recoup their production cost. It works out the same.

    Google can afford to give the OS away for free, because it makes its money from their ecosystem - something BlackBerry doesn't enjoy at the moment. BlackBerry needs that $200 per unit immediately to keep the lights on and continue development of the OS.


    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    I just said to license it for free or extremely cheap (like a few dollars per unit)...

    It wouldn't make sense to charge hundreds of dollars, they are already not interested, why would they if they had to pay $200 per unit, especially when Android is free? Giving up a license fee now will lead to benefits down the road with more devices being used having the OS, like my original thread described, all of this was stated from the beginning, don't feel like repeating any more of it.

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-12-15 05:30 PM
  3. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    I just said to license it for free or extremely cheap (like a few dollars per unit)...

    It wouldn't make sense to charge hundreds of dollars, they are already not interested, why would they if they had to pay $200 per unit, especially when Android is free? Giving up a license fee now will lead to benefits down the road with more devices being used having the OS, like my original thread described, all of this was stated from the beginning, don't feel like repeating any more of it.

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    It all comes down to the fact that BB10 doesn't sell itself.

    Android is free, but so are many other open source software systems. The key is that when someone sees "Android" they instantly recognize it, and know that it is something they could buy. As a no-name hardware manufacturer who is looking to put out the cheapest hardware out there, the last thing you want to do is spend money advertising. You want your cheap price to do all the talking necessary.

    Android OEMs get to enjoy a MASSIVE bandwagon effect of Samsung's/LG's Billions spent in marketing, building awareness and adoption of Android. How many Blu ads have you seen lately (or ever)? Yet, you go into a phone store looking for a Samsung S* and see a similarly looking Blu "android" device for $150, that actually seems alright. If your wallet asks you to, you end up buying the Blu. It required nothing on their part aside from making the hardware and flashing Android on it (ok, maybe some posters and a flyer insert in the local newspaper). That's the beauty of Android (although they probably didn't explain that to Samsung at first).

    With BB10, there is nothing. No, not nothing,.. there is actually huge negative perception. A massive brand hole that needs to be climbed out of. It's so bad that not even BlackBerry spends money advertising it. So really, licensing BB10 would cost a cut-rate hardware maker the Billions of dollars in marketing it would require to make BB10 work.

    It would be a nightmare, and that company should be shutdown the second they decided to even consider it.

    Posted via CB10
    Maxxxpower likes this.
    01-12-15 05:55 PM
  4. slagman5's Avatar
    It all comes down to the fact that BB10 doesn't sell itself.

    Android is free, but so are many other open source software systems. The key is that when someone sees "Android" they instantly recognize it, and know that it is something they could buy. As a no-name hardware manufacturer who is looking to put out the cheapest hardware out there, the last thing you want to do is spend money advertising. You want your cheap price to do all the talking necessary.

    Android OEMs get to enjoy a MASSIVE bandwagon effect of Samsung's/LG's Billions spent in marketing, building awareness and adoption of Android. How many Blu ads have you seen lately (or ever)? Yet, you go into a phone store looking for a Samsung S* and see a similarly looking Blu "android" device for $150, that actually seems alright. If your wallet asks you to, you end up buying the Blu. It required nothing on their part aside from making the hardware and flashing Android on it (ok, maybe some posters and a flyer insert in the local newspaper). That's the beauty of Android (although they probably didn't explain that to Samsung at first).

    With BB10, there is nothing. No, not nothing,.. there is actually huge negative perception. A massive brand hole that needs to be climbed out of. It's so bad that not even BlackBerry spends money advertising it. So really, licensing BB10 would cost a cut-rate hardware maker the Billions of dollars in marketing it would require to make BB10 work.

    It would be a nightmare, and that company should be shutdown the second they decided to even consider it.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree with you that BB has a negative stigma following it, but as surprising as it may sound, most Android phone companies are not really making money from it. Samsung is really the only one getting the bandwagon effect...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-12-15 06:12 PM
  5. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I doubt if licensing BB10 to vendors to make cheap hardware would make any difference. It really hasn't helped Windows Phone lately. Market share of Windows Phone has decreased in almost every market, despite the constant influx of cheap Lumia devices and cheap devices from other vendors.







    I believe cheap Androids are popular because they're cheap but still able to get all the apps users want from the Play Store.







    Even if devices are cheap, users won't want them if they lack native apps.



    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 via Tapatalk
    kbz1960 likes this.
    01-12-15 06:27 PM
  6. slagman5's Avatar
    I doubt if licensing BB10 to vendors to make cheap hardware would make any difference. It really hasn't helped Windows Phone lately. Market share of Windows Phone has decreased in almost every market, despite the constant influx of cheap Lumia devices and cheap devices from other vendors.







    I believe cheap Androids are popular because they're cheap but still able to get all the apps users want from the Play Store.







    Even if devices are cheap, users won't want them if they lack native apps.



    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 via Tapatalk
    Have they gone down? Last time I checked Windows Phone was gaining ground, and it was basically fully due to their cheap phones. Not saying that's the only reason to buy one, but those were the devices being sold in the largest numbers.

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-12-15 06:38 PM
  7. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Have they gone down? Last time I checked Windows Phone was gaining ground, and it was basically fully due to their cheap phones. Not saying that's the only reason to buy one, but those were the devices being sold in the largest numbers.

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

    Please see this article. http://www.windowscentral.com/kantar...-windows-phone
    01-12-15 06:41 PM
  8. vbdwork's Avatar
    It's all about ecosystem. BB10 has the weakest one, even worse than BBOS. I remember using some great apps on BBOS and lost them all on BB10. 2 years later we have to rely on limited Android apps compatibility. It's really a challenge to find 100 excellent 5-star apps on BlackBerry World. Most new apps are just stupid - ringtones, wallpapers, Android apps ports of something few versions old, links to Web services in Browser, etc. I'm a tech-savvy person and still find some workarounds to achieve my goals, but a regular user will dump BB10 in just few days.

    Posted via CB10
    Maxxxpower and slagman5 like this.
    01-12-15 06:54 PM
  9. slagman5's Avatar
    Oh ok, that sucks. I personally don't like WP8, but I would be pretty happy to see this duopoly between Android and iOS be over...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    Laura Knotek and kbz1960 like this.
    01-12-15 07:14 PM
  10. slagman5's Avatar
    It's all about ecosystem. BB10 has the weakest one, even worse than BBOS. I remember using some great apps on BBOS and lost them all on BB10. 2 years later we have to rely on limited Android apps compatibility. It's really a challenge to find 100 excellent 5-star apps on BlackBerry World. Most new apps are just stupid - ringtones, wallpapers, Android apps ports of something few versions old, links to Web services in Browser, etc. I'm a tech-savvy person and still find some workarounds to achieve my goals, but a regular user will dump BB10 in just few days.

    Posted via CB10
    Yah, I know, and part of my hope of being able to flood the market with cheap crap is to motivate app developers to develop more apps for BB10 (with increased market share, the apps with follow). But I don't think that's the only reason why people are not interested in BB10. Studies have shown that the majority of smartphone users don't even download any apps at all...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-12-15 07:16 PM
  11. conite's Avatar
    I just said to license it for free or extremely cheap (like a few dollars per unit)...

    It wouldn't make sense to charge hundreds of dollars, they are already not interested, why would they if they had to pay $200 per unit, especially when Android is free? Giving up a license fee now will lead to benefits down the road with more devices being used having the OS, like my original thread described, all of this was stated from the beginning, don't feel like repeating any more of it.

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    But BlackBerry NEEDS that $200 revenue. They have no other source for it. They will go out of business if they don't get it. Google only has to get a couple of bucks out of each of their customers on Google Play each year to earn the equivalent income.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    01-12-15 07:17 PM
  12. vbdwork's Avatar
    Studies have shown that the majority of smartphone users don't even download any apps at all...
    Apple and Google set a standard in mobile devices, just what Microsoft did in computers. It's hard to convince regular users to learn something new. BB10 on a phone is like Linux on a computer. Good system, stable and secure, does the basics, but not very user friendly and not very compatible. Not for everyone.

    Posted via CB10
    01-12-15 07:32 PM
  13. slagman5's Avatar
    But BlackBerry NEEDS that $200 revenue. They have no other source for it. They will go out of business if they don't get it. Google only has to get a couple of bucks out of each of their customers on Google Play each year to earn the equivalent income.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    Well, let me do some math for you:

    0 x $200 = $0
    Or
    500000 x $0 = $0

    The difference between the two? The second option gets more devices into the market, which has benefits I've stated several times. Interest to load BB10 onto devices is already low. Charging $200 for each device and it's guaranteed to be at ZERO. I know many claim nobody is interested already, that may or may not be true. Was BB asking money for it??

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-12-15 08:56 PM
  14. slagman5's Avatar
    Oh, and I think if they do this, they should also remove the Android runtime from the license versions. Since that would both allow the OS to run slimmer, requiring less RAM, and also if the intention is to drive interest to develop native apps for BB10 allowing Android apps in these devices will be counter-intuitive. Also, there needs to be some software difference between the devices BB is developing and releasing and the license ones to encourage people who might have bought one due to its low cost to want to upgrade to a BB version...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-12-15 09:03 PM
  15. conite's Avatar
    Well, let me do some math for you:

    0 x $200 = $0
    Or
    500000 x $0 = $0

    The difference between the two? The second option gets more devices into the market, which has benefits I've stated several times. Interest to load BB10 onto devices is already low. Charging $200 for each device and it's guaranteed to be at ZERO. I know many claim nobody is interested already, that may or may not be true. Was BB asking money for it??

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    They are getting that $200 now on the 5-10M devices they are selling. Flogging a bunch of degraded BB10 phones on the market will simply tarnish BB10's and BlackBerry's reputation, and cannibalise sales of their own devices. I don't think overall demand will increase by virtue of cheap BB10 phones. That low, low end market is not interested in security or productivity - just apps and social networking.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    01-12-15 09:08 PM
  16. slagman5's Avatar
    They are getting that $200 now on the 5-10M devices they are selling. Flogging a bunch of degraded BB10 phones on the market will simply tarnish BB10's and BlackBerry's reputation, and cannibalise sales of their own devices. I don't think overall demand will increase by virtue of cheap BB10 phones. That low, low end market is not interested in security or productivity - just apps and social networking.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    Tarnish their reputation? Ok, lol.

    Anyway, like I've already said... most people do not apply their experiences with cheap phones on the OS. Do you think the really cheap low-end Android phones run well? I've seen them, several of my friends have them, let me tell you, they definitely do not. But when asked, they still say Android is good and that their phone is "just a cheap phone."

    I am having the worst case of deja-vu...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-12-15 10:09 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    Tarnish their reputation? Ok, lol.

    Anyway, like I've already said... most people do not apply their experiences with cheap phones on the OS. Do you think the really cheap low-end Android phones run well? I've seen them, several of my friends have them, let me tell you, they definitely do not. But when asked, they still say Android is good and that their phone is "just a cheap phone."

    I am having the worst case of deja-vu...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    The BlackBerry name is still worth something in regulated industries, governments, and large corporations. A crappy low-end bb10 phone would be eaten alive by the trade journals and threaten their reputation in the last market BlackBerry has. They can't afford any mistakes or distractions that might jeopardise this. People may forgive Android when using a cheap phone - but they won't forgive BlackBerry.

    Dumping cheap devices on the market works against absolutely everything BlackBerry is trying to do right now. Success in the consumer market may never come, but if it does, it will come as bleed off from business - not the other way around.

    But, as I said before, BB10 does not scale down well, so this whole discussion is moot.


    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    Laura Knotek and kbz1960 like this.
    01-12-15 11:11 PM
  18. slagman5's Avatar
    The BlackBerry name is still worth something in regulated industries, governments, and large corporations. A crappy low-end bb10 phone would be eaten alive by the trade journals and threaten their reputation in the last market BlackBerry has. They can't afford any mistakes or distractions that might jeopardise this. People may forgive Android when using a cheap phone - but they won't forgive BlackBerry.

    Dumping cheap devices on the market works against absolutely everything BlackBerry is trying to do right now. Success in the consumer market may never come, but if it does, it will come as bleed off from business - not the other way around.

    But, as I said before, BB10 does not scale down well, so this whole discussion is moot.


    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    Ah, yes, thanks for making a comment that doesn't include something I've already addressed before. :-)

    Not trying to be sarcastic, actually glad to read the perspective.

    And regarding it, we don't know how well it'll scale if you remove the Android runtime from the OS. Does anyone know how much resources that takes up? It seems to me like BB10 is like running two OS's at the same time...
    01-13-15 01:37 AM
  19. southlander's Avatar
    I'd prefer BlackBerry license their hardware keyboard. More $$$ in that.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.0.1418
    Laura Knotek, conite and kbz1960 like this.
    01-13-15 02:17 AM
  20. Pulkist's Avatar
    Ok, I know I'm not the first to suggest this idea, but I have a more specific route to it I want to present. So my question is, what if BB allows other phone makers to use their OS, kind of like Android does, but not for anyone, ONLY low-end phones? So they allow it to be used either cheap or free, but only for cheap low-end devices. I say that because I wouldn't really want the mid to high range devices that could cut into BB's device sales, but in this way we can get more people into the ecosystem, which could increase app sales which would cause more developers to make BB10 apps, which would in turn make it easier to advertise BB10 as a viable option. When you look at an OS like Windows Phone, they make all of their sales with their low-end cheap devices.

    I mean, shed some light on this if I'm completely wrong, but by licensing it out free or extremely cheap selectively to a certain class of devices, I don't see how this could possibly cause BB to lose any money. This is basically free advertising, free BB10 devices in the field, motivation for app developers, etc. And by keeping the mid to high range devices still BB made this would control the quality of the devices. Nobody buys a sub-$100 device expecting it to be like a Galaxy S5, so those devices not being great does very little to hurt the overall reputation like those cheap crappy Androids you see everywhere. What do you guys think? Am I missing something here that can possibly hurt BB if they do this?

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    Darn, I was going to kill you. But then you said don't kill me....
    Jk

    Posted via CB10
    01-13-15 03:18 AM
  21. conite's Avatar
    And regarding it, we don't know how well it'll scale if you remove the Android runtime from the OS. Does anyone know how much resources that takes up? It seems to me like BB10 is like running two OS's at the same time...
    The Android Runtime bar file is 85MB. Fully installed in memory it might grow to 1.5x that (plus or minus).

    I couldn't imagine trying to sell a BlackBerry device into the consumer space without Android support - especially since BlackBerry has said they will be relying more on the Amazon app store for its consumer app offerings. Even the official music service (7Digital) is an android app.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    01-13-15 04:28 AM
  22. Arth Patel's Avatar
    What about security, it is made for business use and meant for them, if security goes down BlackBerry will loose more business then gaining by making cheap phones

    Posted via amazing black passport
    01-13-15 05:29 AM
  23. slagman5's Avatar
    The Android Runtime bar file is 85MB. Fully installed in memory it might grow to 1.5x that (plus or minus).

    I couldn't imagine trying to sell a BlackBerry device into the consumer space without Android support - especially since BlackBerry has said they will be relying more on the Amazon app store for its consumer app offerings. Even the official music service (7Digital) is an android app.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    Thanks for the first part of that, regarding the second part though...

    "if the intention is to drive interest to develop native apps for BB10 allowing Android apps in these devices will be counter-intuitive. Also, there needs to be some software difference between the devices BB is developing and releasing and the license ones to encourage people who might have bought one due to its low cost to want to upgrade to a BB version..."

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-13-15 10:53 AM
  24. slagman5's Avatar
    What about security, it is made for business use and meant for them, if security goes down BlackBerry will loose more business then gaining by making cheap phones

    Posted via amazing black passport
    Yah, perhaps, although not sure how much ground they really can lose... But perhaps they could make some fundamental differences between the licensed version and the official BB version so others will not get the original source code or something...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-13-15 10:54 AM
  25. conite's Avatar
    Thanks for the first part of that, regarding the second part though...

    "if the intention is to drive interest to develop native apps for BB10 allowing Android apps in these devices will be counter-intuitive. Also, there needs to be some software difference between the devices BB is developing and releasing and the license ones to encourage people who might have bought one due to its low cost to want to upgrade to a BB version..."

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    BlackBerry has already decided on its course of action with regard to the Android Runtime. The debate is over. They threw in the towel on consumer apps for the most part. Whether its existence from the start helped or hindered will be a topic of debate forever - but again it is moot.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1949
    kbz1960 likes this.
    01-13-15 10:59 AM
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