08-23-14 11:27 AM
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  1. NoAhB0Dy's Avatar
    Configure outlook properly to avoid that silliness. Also, telling someone that downloading an email on outlook will delete it from his handheld is silly.

    Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.
    10-15-13 08:44 PM
  2. ssbtech's Avatar
    Telling someone that downloading an email with Outlook will delete it from the device is not silly, especially when that's exactly what it does.

    ISP does not support desktop Active Sync.
    10-15-13 08:59 PM
  3. NoAhB0Dy's Avatar
    Umm, yes it's silly. Tell outlook to leave the mail on the server. Silly solved.

    Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.
    10-15-13 09:03 PM
  4. Omnitech's Avatar
    I was setting up a new Z10 for someone yesterday and explained how his email now works on it with his Shaw account (sync'd) and that deleting a message from the phone deletes it from his mailbox, and when Outlook on his laptop downloads the message it will be removed from the mailbox and by extension, the phone.

    His response: "Well that's silly"

    Of course, because most people do not use Outlook that way.

    • It will not work that way if you set it up using "Hotmail Connector" or "Outlook Connector"
    • It will not work that way if you set it up using IMAP
    • It will not work that way if you set it up using Exchange ActiveSync
    • It will not work that way if you set it up using it as an Exchange (MAPI) client
    • It will not work that way if you set it up using POP3, and select "leave on server" in settings
    10-15-13 09:46 PM
  5. ssbtech's Avatar
    Once again you're assuming everyone is using webmail. He is using Shaw email. There's no "Outlook connector" or IMAP. It's POP3.

    If one of the biggest ISPs in Canada doesn't support EAS/IMAP, don't you think there'd still be many, many people using POP3?
    10-15-13 09:53 PM
  6. ssbtech's Avatar
    It will not work that way if you set it up using POP3, and select "leave on server" in settings
    A configuration which you have repeatedly stated isn't part of the POP3 spec and isn't reliable.
    10-15-13 09:56 PM
  7. ZeroBarrier's Avatar
    Once again you're assuming everyone is using webmail. He is using Shaw email. There's no "Outlook connector" or IMAP. It's POP3.

    If one of the biggest ISPs in Canada doesn't support EAS/IMAP, don't you think there'd still be many, many people using POP3?
    Don't know what shaw is, but it seems to me like it is in fact webmail.

    webmail.shaw.ca/

    No?

    Posted via CB10
    10-15-13 10:06 PM
  8. ssbtech's Avatar
    Yes, Shaw has webmail access to mailboxes, but no webmail support for desktop clients.
    10-15-13 10:23 PM
  9. NoAhB0Dy's Avatar
    From https://community.shaw.ca/docs/DOC-1454
    "Please Note: If you would like to have Outlook 2010 keep a copy of your e-mail messages on the Shaw Server so that you can access them from Webmail as well you will need to go into the Advanced tab and place a checkmark next to 'Leave a copy of messages on the server.'"

    (pretty sure this will apply to all current versions of outlook)

    Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.
    Omnitech likes this.
    10-15-13 11:32 PM
  10. ssbtech's Avatar
    From https://community.shaw.ca/docs/DOC-1454
    "Please Note: If you would like to have Outlook 2010 keep a copy of your e-mail messages on the Shaw Server....
    I'm well aware of that feature and use it on my laptop so at the end of the day my desktop grabs all the messages into one central location.

    If I didn't have my desktop clearing off the mail server, I'd be out of space and bouncing emails back.

    Did you also know Shaw still doesn't support Windows 8 mail downloading attachments?
    10-16-13 01:00 AM
  11. Omnitech's Avatar
    Once again you're assuming everyone is using webmail.
    MOST of the configurations in the list I posted have no "webmail" requirement, though certainly in some cases a webmail feature can be optional.


    He is using Shaw email. There's no "Outlook connector" or IMAP. It's POP3.

    If one of the biggest ISPs in Canada doesn't support EAS/IMAP, don't you think there'd still be many, many people using POP3?

    Then the blame rests with A) your decision to use Shaw as an ISP, and B) configure it the way you did, not Outlook or BlackBerry.
    10-16-13 01:10 AM
  12. Omnitech's Avatar
    I'm well aware of that feature and use it on my laptop so at the end of the day my desktop grabs all the messages into one central location.

    So the red herring of yours cited below was just for the sake of whipping up more argument then, because you already know it works in your environment. (And as we learned from the excerpt that NoAhB0Dy posted, Shaw even specifically recommends using that setting with Outlook)


    A configuration which you have repeatedly stated isn't part of the POP3 spec and isn't reliable.

    Once again: blame Shaw and your insistence on POP3, not Outlook and not Blackberry.
    10-16-13 01:18 AM
  13. Omnitech's Avatar
    Yes, Shaw has webmail access to mailboxes, but no webmail support for desktop clients.

    "webmail support for desktop clients" is an oxymoron.

    By definition, webmail is not desktop email.
    10-16-13 01:21 AM
  14. ssbtech's Avatar
    Webmail, EAS, IMAP.. whatever. Cloud hosted inbox.

    Until Shaw opens up the wm.shaw.ca server (the one mobile clients use) for Outlook, it's a dog's breakfast.

    Yes, I use the "leave on server" feature, but you've said many times that it's not properly supported.

    No, nobody is forcing me to use Shaw's email, but I'm not prepared to pay for another service either.
    10-16-13 01:39 AM
  15. Omnitech's Avatar
    Yes, I use the "leave on server" feature, but you've said many times that it's not properly supported.

    You're conflating two unrelated points.

    My point about "leave on server" is that it is not remotely practical or reasonable to expect the userbase at large to rely on that system (as you seem to be continuously advocating) because A) it is based on POP3, which is a dying technology, and B) since it is not part of the POP3 standard it is thus highly susceptible to the idiosyncracies of POP3 implementations at both the server and the client side, and various permutations and combinations of those (making it unreliable for the broader user community using various unpredictable combinations of client software and server implementations. This is what "communications standards" are used for: to create reliable mechanisms for various combinations of different devices to reliably communicate. If there were no variety, there would be no need for standards.)

    Whereas in this case we have 3 concrete variables already nailed down:


    1. You have settled on Shaw's email service and have indicated you have no intention of considering any alternative at any time in the foreseeable future.
    2. You have settled on using Outlook on your desktop PC to archive/store messages and you have no intention of considering any alternative in the foreseeable future.
    3. You have settled on using a BlackBerry 10 device (Z10 in this case) as your mobile client at this time.



    Since you have already "predetermined" what normally is a vast potential variety of combinations of those 3 variables, the practicality of whether or not "POP3 leave on server" is applicable to the whole rest of the world is immaterial. You've already nailed down the 3 main variables for you, and we also know that Shaw specifically recommends using that setting on Outlook, so compatibility with YOUR email server is a NON ISSUE.

    Of course, as soon as any of those variables change, then you will have to re-consider the value of sticking with standards. E.g.: some day, Shaw will change their email system, and you WILL be forced to adapt. You can either hope that they will run POP3 servers forever, or prepare for that eventual certain change.

    When that day comes, I will look forward to seeing endless threads on Shaw's public forums, with at least one particularly active user bitterly criticizing them for dropping POP3 support.
    10-16-13 02:02 AM
  16. ssbtech's Avatar
    B) since it is not part of the POP3 standard it is thus highly susceptible to the idiosyncracies of POP3 implementations at both the server and the client side, )
    And EAS/IMAP is bulletproof? Look at how many people just on this forum are complaining about problems syncing with Hotmail, Gmail, etc...

    One thing POP does well is work. And it doesn't require me to have hundreds of emails stored on my phone.
    10-16-13 02:21 AM
  17. Omnitech's Avatar
    And EAS/IMAP is bulletproof? Look at how many people just on this forum are complaining about problems syncing with Hotmail, Gmail, etc...

    One thing POP does well is work. And it doesn't require me to have hundreds of emails stored on my phone.

    Once again, you are picking things out of what I write and making up your own conclusions.

    IMAP is an open international standard, published via the Internet Engineering Task Force, just like all the rest of the protocols that underlie the Internet. Anyone in the world who wants to create a communication device or software that uses IMAP and which interoperates with other IMAP products can do so by implementing the technology standard using the public documentation.

    EAS is a Microsoft technology, widely used by organizations outside of Microsoft, that is now completely publicly documented so that just like IMAP and POP3, anyone can create a device or write software that will interoperate with other EAS clients/servers. (However Microsoft expects those that use it to pay them a license fee.)

    And for that matter, POP3 is an IETF standard just like IMAP.

    But the "leave on server" customization of POP3 is NOT written into the POP3 standard, which means that there is no STANDARDIZED way to make that work. Ergo, there is no guarantee that any particular POP3 client will have a predictable interaction with any particular POP3 server in terms of the "leave on server" aspect, because it is not part of the standard.

    Communications standards are important to reduce unpredictable communication failures between disparate devices that need to communicate over shared media. (In this case "The Internet")

    EAS is also a publicly-documented standard at this point, which is probably one of several key reasons why BlackBerry shifted their architecture to support EAS in BB10 and BES10, rather than their own proprietary legacy BIS and BES protocols. Back in those days, there wasn't really a suitable alternative to what they were doing, EAS was much more immature and unstable, and it was not publicly documented. Now, it's not such a gamble to use EAS because interoperability is very good, and it provides a variety of very useful functions and features that none of the "public domain" standards like IMAP provide.

    "Leave on server" is certainly not the only non-standard "extension" to the way a communications standard is implemented. Google for example is infamous for adding their own proprietary extensions to communications protocols, for example IMAP. There are some things that Gmail does with "IMAP" that are unique to Google.

    And that is why you will inevitably see more cases where clients trying to interconnect with Gmail will run into "weird problems": simply because Gmail has twiddled around with the "standards" and created a situation where despite Google having an "IMAP" option - you have to write special accomodations into your IMAP mail clients to work well with Gmail.

    A perfectly compatible standard IMAP client will at the very least not be able to take advantage of certain Gmail-specific features, and may fail to work properly in other unpredictable ways as well because of Gmail idiosyncracies. Also, there is no guarantee that an IMAP client that worked perfectly with Gmail yesterday will work correctly with Gmail tomorrow, because Google is not obligated to make Gmail backwards-compatible with anything, nor are they obligated to tell anyone pro-actively and in detail when they are planning on changing things around. And lastly, you don't have the broad testing base that would normally make it easier to ensure your implementation of a communication standard is stable, because in this case it only applies to a single provider.

    Old time internet geeks like me hate that cr*p because it "balkanizes" email interconnectivity. But huge influential companies like Google get away with it because their market power makes it easy to do so. Before Google, Microsoft was infamous for precisely the same thing. And EAS would probably never have become publicly documented if it weren't for certain European antitrust rulings that compelled them to do so. But it is now, it is widely used in businesses and organizations, and it works well so lots of people (including BlackBerry) use it for the richer functionality it provides over IMAP and POP.

    That said, no one is dictating EAS to anyone. As you can see in the list I wrote above, Microsoft Outlook provides a variety of ways to connect with email servers other than by using EAS. Matter of fact, only Outlook 2013 has native EAS support. EAS was mostly designed for handheld devices.

    In a nutshell: standards are good for interoperability and reliability. Standards evolve, and the current evolution is away from POP3, and more towards "syncing" protocols because most customers today prefer to have an email system that gives them a synchronized view between multiple devices. Surely at some point the technology preferences and standards and implementations will shift in some other direction.
    Last edited by Omnitech; 10-16-13 at 03:02 AM.
    10-16-13 02:48 AM
  18. ssbtech's Avatar
    I've been trying out the "leave on mailbox" setting in Outlook for the last few days. Now I have dozens of emails on my phone that I don't want there. I can't delete them because I'm not always certain if Outlook is running on my PC at home and I don't want to delete them until I know for sure if Outlook has downloaded a copy.

    Solution? A full EAS configuration with Hotmail. Only problem with that is folders - If I set up Hotmail to automatically sort messages into folders, I need to have those folders sync'd with my phone to see messages inside them. Then once again I have a cluttered hub with messages I don't want to see on my phone.

    Frustrating.
    10-26-13 02:36 PM
  19. HitchCB's Avatar
    What I did is to create folders on your mailbox on your BlackBerry (exp work, buys, personal etc...) each email I want to keep I just move it to the appropriate folder and done, the email isn't showing anymore on my inbox and I do have access to it from my BlackBerry and on my pc if I need to.
    "Delete on Handheld" and "Delete in Mailbox"-img_00001864.png

    Posted via CB10
    10-26-13 03:43 PM
  20. ssbtech's Avatar
    How many messages do you end up manually filing every day doing it that way?

    I could auto-file on the server with mail rules, but then I'd have to poke through multiple folders across multiple accounts to see all my unread mail. That's time consuming
    10-26-13 04:58 PM
  21. NoAhB0Dy's Avatar
    How many messages do you end up manually filing every day doing it that way?

    I could auto-file on the server with mail rules, but then I'd have to poke through multiple folders across multiple accounts to see all my unread mail. That's time consuming
    With all the mail you seem to get, why don't you just hire a secretary?

    Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.
    10-26-13 09:43 PM
  22. wsfahmed's Avatar
    So after 34 page I still can't figure out how to get delete on handheld and retain in mailbox to work.

    So much argument going on here without any productivity.

    Posted via CB10
    10-26-13 10:22 PM
  23. NoAhB0Dy's Avatar
    So after 34 page I still can't figure out how to get delete on handheld and retain in mailbox to work.

    So much argument going on here without any productivity.

    Posted via CB10
    That's because you can't with BB10. There are workarounds but people don't like change. This horse is dead but ppl want to keep beating it

    Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.
    southlander likes this.
    10-26-13 10:33 PM
  24. StutterStep's Avatar
    A little birdie told me this feature is coming back very soon.
    10-26-13 11:02 PM
  25. NoAhB0Dy's Avatar
    A little birdie told me this feature is coming back very soon.
    That would likely require a lot of programming. Somehow, if it was on the plate, I can't see how it would be anytime soon. I also don't think BlackBerry is really taking any heat on this. Every webinar I've done suggests they are quite happy with eas.

    Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.
    10-27-13 12:24 AM
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