[NoAhB0Dy]

Hey Omnitech, I took your advice and upgraded to a modern email client. I downloaded the trial of Outlook 2013.

What a horrid POS. Hopefully it hasn't rendered my Outlook.pst file incompatible with 2K3 so I can switch back.

"Oh no...those M$ bastargs changed my Outlook on me!"

Stupid change!

[bubbbab]

Hey Omnitech, I took your advice and upgraded to a modern email client. I downloaded the trial of Outlook 2013.

What a horrid POS. Hopefully it hasn't rendered my Outlook.pst file incompatible with 2K3 so I can switch back.

Did you do this without backing up your .pst files?

Presented by Dr. Emmett Brown on BlackBerry Z41

[ssbtech]

"Oh no...those M$ bastargs changed my Outlook on me!"

Stupid change!

I might be able to live with the hideous "flat" interface but it's broken email notifications by the clock so I have no idea when a message comes in.

Did you do this without backing up your .pst files?

I did back it up, but that doesn't back up new messages received to it via Outlook 2013. All is well though, Outlook 2003 opens the PST file just fine. (After I had to repair 2003 after 2013 killed the Send/receive function)...

[Omnitech]

Hey Omnitech, I took your advice and upgraded to a modern email client. I downloaded the trial of Outlook 2013.

What a horrid POS. Hopefully it hasn't rendered my Outlook.pst file incompatible with 2K3 so I can switch back.

I haven't tried 2013, I heard some mediocre reviews on it. (Though it has a couple of features that could be useful for one of my clients)

2010 though is decent. 2007 was the first with the "ribbon" (which I am no big fan of) but 2010's version of the ribbon is a little less annoying than the 2007 version.

Some email service providers give you a license for Outlook when you subscribe to their service, including moderately older versions if you want. I realize Microsoft makes it hard for retail customers to get older versions, but enterprise customers can easily get them. You buy a license for the current version and typically it allows you to use that license to run the older version.

[KitJackson67]

PLEASE CAN WE GET THIS ON THE NEXT OS UPDATE!!!!!

Its so annoying that this option isn't avlialbe -- i want to keep emails in my actual inbox while deleting it from my phone inbox

PLEASE

I would love to have this option back.

[MsBree]

I have discovered a fix for Gmail users, so if anyone is reading this with a Gmail account who uses POP settings, here's the simple fix:

Log into your Gmail account on the web, click Settings and then click "Forwarding and POP/IMAP". You should already have POP enabled. Under POP Download, under #2, select "keep Gmail's copy in the Inbox" from the pull down menu and then Save your changes. This keeps all your Gmail on your Q10, even after downloading via POP to Outlook or any other e-mail program.

NOTE: If you Archive or Delete any of these e-mails from within your Gmail account, they will automatically be removed from your Q10 too!

[blusls]

In those terms, the email market is the boss and BlackBerry adjusted to accomodate standard IMAP specifications.

Thank you.

Posted via my Z10 on busted AT&T

[ezapper2]

I would love to have this option back.

Delete on handheld was a feature of BIS.

Because no one wanted to pay the cost BlackBerry resorted to the same as all other devices. (activesync, Imap, pop)

Go after the creators of these protocols!

Z10_10.2.0.1047

[bubbbab]

For pop accounts this is big, and I'm realizing that they will never add that back leaving IMAP or EAS as options. But I wouldn't keep bb10 email shorts narrowed to only this. There are many other things that have not been included that were on legacy devices. Ability to request read receipts, send read receipts, auto copy outbound emails to another address. There are others but on many ways email in bb10 appears stripped down. Not to take away from the obvious forward thinking enhancements, but these misses seem superfluous to me.

Presented by Dr. Emmett Brown on BlackBerry Z41

[adamlau]

JFC...What if I am already syncing a folder with filtered messages? File the messages I want to save to another folder? Horrible. Need feature to preserve what is on the server!

[zenadventurer]

For what it's worth - and it may be a small consolation, those emails deleted from your BB10 phone (and subsequently your Outlook inbox) will still be available and searchable/filterable in your Deleted Items folder.

[bubbbab]

This does not work the way I think bit should. I would expect sent items to end up in a sent items folder. That doesn't happen by itself. One has to physically move a sent item from the hub to the sent item folder. Deleted. Items, for me at least are not on the server welted items. Not any any of the mail servers I have in use.

Presented by Dr. Emmett Brown on BlackBerry Z41

[BL3]

Bumppppppppppp

[Dying-breed]

There is a workaround for this that will help some people

If your email supports use of either POP or IMAP, then you can set it up to download as POP to your PC-based email client, and then configure IMAP to download to the Blackberry. Assuming that your PC is left on, then as long as you wait at least a minute or two after receiving on the Blackberry (IMAP messages are usually received faster than POP messages, so you need to wait long enough for your POP email client to download the message before deleting on the Blackberry), you can delete a message there, and it will not have any impact on the PC.

If you don't have your PC on and connected at all times, then don't delete from the Blackberry until you can update email on the PC (if you delete IMAP mail on the Blackberry, it will delete it from the server, so you need to make sure that your POP client has a chance to download before deleting on the Blackberry).

This comes close to what BIS used to do, without the extra step of having to confirm whether you want to delete on the server or not.

What folks like Omnitech won't tell you or don't understand is that a huge number of the remaining users of Blackberry have stuck with it precisely because of this "feature", because they use their mobile device to answer things that can be answered quickly and as a short to-do list. If a message is desired to be stored long term (offline) or requires a lengthy response, then this is done on the PC where it is more natural. However, it doesn't make sense to clutter up your short to-do list with the 50 other emails that can't be simply answered right away, or which you want to store for archival purposes but not have to look at every time you are trying to deal with something quickly.

The kind of syncing that IMAP does makes sense for some, but not all users. And my guess is that if Blackberry actually took this to heart and advertised this difference, they could take a healthy chunk of Android and iOS users with the new Q10 and Z10. Despite techies who insist that there is one best way, that isn't true of anything, and we all have reasons for our idiosyncrasies.

In fact, it would be near the top of the list of differentiating ideas that I'd pitch to Prem Watsa as he tries to revive this moribund company.

[Dying-breed]

In those terms, the email market is the boss and BlackBerry adjusted to accomodate standard IMAP specifications.

There is no such thing as "the email market". There are many different ways that email is used, just as there are different ways that Blackberries are used. Each different way of using email represents a different segment with different needs. My guess is that the segment of users who liked the feature that BIS enabled (delete on phone/keep on server) is probably the majority of POP email users. That is not an insignificant market, and all by itself could support more handsets sold than Blackberry managed last quarter with their super-duper new devices.

The point is not to be just like Android and iOS -- that's a losing game, because the market has already long-since decided those are the two standards. (By your logic, the smartphone market is boss, and has decided that Blackberry is dead. But, obviously you're a diehard who still uses one, and my assumption is that you'd like it to continue to be supported.) If Blackberry wants to survive, it needs to promote its differences and understand the niches that use them and why, not eliminate the differences in the name of enforced standards.

[Omnitech]

What folks like Omnitech won't tell you or don't understand is that a huge number of the remaining users of Blackberry have stuck with it precisely because of this "feature", because they use their mobile device to answer things that can be answered quickly and as a short to-do list. If a message is desired to be stored long term (offline) or requires a lengthy response, then this is done on the PC where it is more natural. However, it doesn't make sense to clutter up your short to-do list with the 50 other emails that can't be simply answered right away, or which you want to store for archival purposes but not have to look at every time you are trying to deal with something quickly.

Please do not presume to proclaim what I do or do not understand.

If you actually read the various responses on this thread over the span of 6+ months it has existed, you would have seen that various strategies have been discussed and demonstrated for how to organize and use the mobile email functionality in an efficient way, including in ways that solve most of the issues that you are claiming to solve above, in addition to providing other benefits.

The bottom line is that there is more than one way to handle most of those things, and in some specific and narrow cases there is indeed some missing and useful functionality, but in my experience the vast majority of the complainers about that here are people who simply don't want to change the way they've been doing something for 5 or 10 years.

As for "huge number" - I rather doubt it. We see a lot of vocal partisans here on Crackberry over issues like this, but when compared to the entire usebase, I'd guess that it is a small minority of people in that crowd, most likely less than 5 or at the most 10 percent of the userbase. I would characterize a company that changes their whole strategy around to cater to such a tiny minority of their users as mismanaged.

[phillyd2]

mismanaged is about right. Without this feature there is zero reason for my smallish company to stay with BB, if there is even one left to stay with. At this point I may as well go to Droid or iOS instead of a wannabe. BB did what they did almost perfectly which is why so many stayed. Now?

[ssbtech]

All the "workarounds" Omnitech recommends aren't workarounds at all, they're simply the new way of doing things.

I've just simply gotten used to not having emails on my phone for more than 15 minutes if Outlook is running on my desktop.

[NoAhB0Dy]

Pebkac

Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.

[Omnitech]

All the "workarounds" Omnitech recommends aren't workarounds at all, they're simply the new way of doing things.

I've just simply gotten used to not having emails on my phone for more than 15 minutes if Outlook is running on my desktop.

If your provider supports ActiveSync there's a good chance they're running Microsoft Exchange.

If they're running Microsoft Exchange then you can link Outlook using MAPI and have more functionality than you ever dreamed of.

Saying these other alternatives are not "workarounds" is not entirely unlike complaining that there is no new car on the market that is 100% identical to your beloved 1953 Studebaker that no longer runs and can't be repaired any longer.

[ssbtech]

If your provider supports ActiveSync there's a good chance they're running Microsoft Exchange.

Or something rather unfortunate such as Zimbra... Can't even get Shaw to turn on IMAP let alone ActiveSync.

I have 5 email accounts, messages filtered into folders after being received. One folder may have messages from three different accounts filtered into it. How does one do that with ActiveSync?

[Dying-breed]

Please do not presume to proclaim what I do or do not understand.

If you actually read the various responses on this thread over the span of 6+ months it has existed, you would have seen that various strategies have been discussed and demonstrated for how to organize and use the mobile email functionality in an efficient way, including in ways that solve most of the issues that you are claiming to solve above, in addition to providing other benefits.

The bottom line is that there is more than one way to handle most of those things, and in some specific and narrow cases there is indeed some missing and useful functionality, but in my experience the vast majority of the complainers about that here are people who simply don't want to change the way they've been doing something for 5 or 10 years.

As for "huge number" - I rather doubt it. We see a lot of vocal partisans here on Crackberry over issues like this, but when compared to the entire usebase, I'd guess that it is a small minority of people in that crowd, most likely less than 5 or at the most 10 percent of the userbase. I would characterize a company that changes their whole strategy around to cater to such a tiny minority of their users as mismanaged.

If you understood this, we wouldn't be arguing. As I said, you want to dictate to people how they SHOULD work, which I find typical of many engineers who can't empathize. Your emotional and defensive tone, and characterization of those who disagree with you as Luddites ("don't want to change the way they've been doing if for 5 or 10 years") say you believe you are right, and others are stupid. I have read most of this thread, and have been a frequent return visitor trying to figure out a way to solve this problem for myself. I have seen how you have treated others' opinions in this thread, and the condescension with which you repeat "get with the times", "the market has spoken (and you are wrong)", "IMAP is better because I say so", "this is the most efficient way", etc. The workaround I offered isn't a perfect emulation of the previous workflow, but it is a darned close approximation, and if your provider allows you to access mail account as either/both IMAP and POP, then it works as a hybrid strategy. Something I discovered by accident when I simply tried it.

It has to do with understanding the reasons why I want to do what I want to do, and not presuming. You want to follow the flock, rather than do something because a set of users tells you this is the way they prefer to work and what their use-case is and why. If those people selected your product specifically because of that use-case, and stayed with you because of that use-case, and view most other features as being generic, then you had better listen. It's the users whose problems you uniquely solve, and who have nowhere else to go who will be your most passionate advocates, and maybe even the last diehards to go down with the ship. You may call them vocal partisans, but isn't that exactly what you are? Why are you still a Blackberry user when the market has clearly pronounced this company irrelevant? Everyone's needs are important, and the company that best satisfies the consumer's "job to be done" within a niche is the one that has a chance of surviving. Since all other handset makers have abandoned this niche of vocal partisans, supporting them would make good business sense for a company that is near death.

And, being a me-too sort-of-Android in catch-up mode is the surest way to failure.

I don't care to speculate about how huge the number is. It is large enough to be meaningful. And when Blackberry can only sell 3.7 million handsets in their last quarter, while a warmed over iPhone upgrade can sell 9 million units in its first weekend, it is worth investigating every possible point of differentiation and understanding precisely why those 3.7 million people are still with you.

Plucked from Mobile World Live two days ago:

Most concerning for BlackBerry, the company said it “expects to recognise hardware revenue on approximately 3.7 million BlackBerry smartphones”, of which “most” were devices powered by the ageing Blackberry 7 platform.

This says a lot.

[bubbbab]

I think Omni has tried to be helpful. I think the communications gap in this thread is more of a package deal. For me personally leaving a message on the server, or choosing not to is a valuable option. But it doesn't stop there. I also see value in other now unavailable options such as sending or not sending a receipt, asking for a receipt, automatically CCing outbound emails. There are others as well.

Threads like these are useful, but it's better to stay out of the weeds by not slapping each other.

I'm currently on imap on device and pop on desktop and laptop. Not sure if I'll change. This is frustrating but not the end of my existence.

Presented by Dr. Emmett Brown on BlackBerry Z41

[Omnitech]

Or something rather unfortunate such as Zimbra... Can't even get Shaw to turn on IMAP let alone ActiveSync.

Wait a second - I thought you had setup your Z, at least at one time, with an email syncing protocol like EAS or IMAP. Did I misremember that?

Zimbra does have support for both EAS and IMAP, are you saying Shaw is running Zimbra but limiting it to POP retrieval? That's kind of bizarre. They must be stingy about disk space.

I have 5 email accounts, messages filtered into folders after being received. One folder may have messages from three different accounts filtered into it. How does one do that with ActiveSync?

We've covered this before. Some choices:

1. Use a provider that has a feature that can pull messages from "foreign" accounts into a single account. (ie Outlook.com, Gmail, various commercial providers)
2. Use Outlook's multiple account feature to configure multiple accounts on the email application, as you are doing.
3. Consolidate your accounts to a single provider, using separate domains if you wish.

Here's how it is done in Zimbra, if you were administering the system yourself:

Multiple domains, single account

[Omnitech]

If you understood this, we wouldn't be arguing.

Ah, life must be very simple in that bubble you are in over there.

Your emotional and defensive tone.... say you believe you are right, and others are stupid.

Pot, there is a kettle calling you.

And, being a me-too sort-of-Android in catch-up mode is the surest way to failure.

Who is making the claim here that BlackBerry is or intends to be a "Android in catch-up mode"? You're making things up.

I don't care to speculate about how huge the number is. It is large enough to be meaningful.

Obviously we all have different conceptions about what a "meaningful number" is.