09-16-13 11:01 AM
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  1. AluminiumRims's Avatar
    In short the "advantages" of going to 64-bit on their own are tiny, but when it comes to address space considerations then the differences are gigantic. There are, incidentally, ways to "cheat" beyond the alleged maximum physical address space (I used to exploit these back in the 16-bit days quite-heavily out of necessity) but they're messy as hell and require hardware that's cooperative, which you often do not have.
    Actually, the Z10 has 2GB today. Once they go beyond that to 3GB or more they must use a 64-bit processor in order to be able to utilize all the memory. Well, ARMv7 does support more than 4GB physical memory through their LPAE extension but I think manufacturers will just decide to move to ARMv8 all together instead. Hey, if they say 64-bit instead of 32, people will buy it.
    09-11-13 04:43 PM
  2. BBPandy's Avatar
    Actually, the Z10 has 2GB today. Once they go beyond that to 3GB or more they must use a 64-bit processor in order to be able to utilize all the memory. Well, ARMv7 does support more than 4GB physical memory through their LPAE extension but I think manufacturers will just decide to move to ARMv8 all together instead. Hey, if they say 64-bit instead of 32, people will buy it.
    You mean beyond 4GB

    Posted via CB10
    09-11-13 07:18 PM
  3. AluminiumRims's Avatar
    You mean beyond 4GB

    Posted via CB10
    No, about 3GB. Parts of the address space is used for IO which means if you have 4GB you cannot use it all so the benefit of 64-bits starts around the 3GB mark.
    09-12-13 05:24 AM
  4. g2gcya's Avatar
    No, about 3GB. Parts of the address space is used for IO which means if you have 4GB you cannot use it all so the benefit of 64-bits starts around the 3GB mark.
    Similar to windows, if you have 32 bits os, check your ram availability usage and yes only slightly 3gb++ can be utilised.

    So i can conclude that 64 bits is just a gimmick by apple at the moment.
    09-12-13 09:23 AM
  5. app_Developer's Avatar
    No, about 3GB. Parts of the address space is used for IO which means if you have 4GB you cannot use it all so the benefit of 64-bits starts around the 3GB mark.
    I think you're thinking about x86. On 32-bit ARM, you can address 4GB of RAM. And then on the current ones with LPAE of course that's actually 4GB per process.
    sergey_IL likes this.
    09-12-13 11:12 AM
  6. M65c02's Avatar
    Until Apple and its app developers start writing apps in 64-bit I don't see any benefit of iPhones having 64-bit processors. Basically 0 performance gain.

    Posted via CB10
    If a question wrapped inside a statement, you answered your own question or, at least, did some accurate forecasting as to the direction of future Apple-related coding .
    09-12-13 11:21 AM
  7. sergey_IL's Avatar
    I have 30+ years of software development under my belt including OS-level and assembler work. I'm very-much aware of the differences between 32 and 64-bit architectures, considering that I started programming on architectures where 16 bits was the address space available (specifically, Z80s and similar, all in assembler.)

    There is no material performance advantage until and unless you need the address space capability. Then there is, in a big way. Yes, there are small (very small) advantages that one gets from a "larger" register set but when it comes to things like encryption the big wins are from native instructions (e.g. the Intel AES-NI instruction set which is ~100x as fast as doing the same crypto in software.)

    There is no free lunch. Manipulating more bits at a time sounds like a free lunch but it is not, and in particular it will impact power budget, although again probably not greatly.

    In short the "advantages" of going to 64-bit on their own are tiny, but when it comes to address space considerations then the differences are gigantic. There are, incidentally, ways to "cheat" beyond the alleged maximum physical address space (I used to exploit these back in the 16-bit days quite-heavily out of necessity) but they're messy as hell and require hardware that's cooperative, which you often do not have.

    What can be of course significant is a richer instruction set but that's not necessarily tied to the size of the address space.
    Can add to this that the current trend is to offload heavy commutations to DSP or GPU co-processor. There is no point to process picture or video on CPU. Just take a look on modern Intel CPUs or things like OpenCL, CUDA. Mobile devices will follow this trend, because its much more effective than CPU processing.
    Other thing what people are messing is the bus width to CPU and CPU registers bit-width, these are never was/will be the same. If you look on 8088 Intel CPU it has 16 bit registers but only 8 bit bus to CPU. On other hand modern CPUs/GPUs have much wider bus to memory access.
    Also cash organization should be considered.

    PS: Not to mention that 64-bit CPU is larger and so more expensive. Personally I will never buy 64-bit, I don't like to pay for things that are totally useless.
    09-12-13 11:42 AM
  8. sjmartin007's Avatar
    There will be some issues running a 64 bit chip at least for now. One is, you guest it, battery power A7 will be a power hog. Also programs that are designed to run on 64 bits architecture usually use alot more memory, thus require more RAM. I am thinking Apple inplemented this to go up against BB10s QNX multikernal architecture. Their logic must be, a faster processor can perform more task simultaneously. Unlike QNX that runs completely differrent.
    09-12-13 11:53 AM
  9. Gerry In Toronto's Avatar
    Blah blah blah.

    Based on today's architecture, a true 64-bit program and processor will suck the life out of your battery.

    I'm not looking for bragging rights or to play graphically intensive games on my phone.

    I use it as a communication device.

    Apple knows this and are simply using this as a marketing tool. Once they start running 64-bit programs, the battery will drain faster than a keg of beer at a frat party.

    I don't want a phone that will need recharging after a few hours. The battery life on my Z10 is borderline as it is.

    Via my Z10 beta 10.4.1.1338
    09-12-13 01:17 PM
  10. mnc76's Avatar
    At this stage in the game, the A7 is a better processor for reasons that overwhelmingly have nothing to do with its 64-bitness.

    On-chip cache size, cache type, clock speed, bus bandwith, memory model, fetch/decode/retire logic etc... play a much more important role.

    Posted via CB10
    Nharzhool likes this.
    09-12-13 02:44 PM
  11. redk's Avatar
    F.

    Posted via CB10
    09-12-13 03:59 PM
  12. BBPandy's Avatar
    At this stage in the game, the A7 is a better processor for reasons that overwhelmingly have nothing to do with its 64-bitness.

    On-chip cache size, cache type, clock speed, bus bandwith, memory model, fetch/decode/retire logic etc... play a much more important role.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree.

    Posted via CB10
    09-12-13 04:34 PM
  13. samab's Avatar
    There had been work done on 64 bit QNX on PowerPC platform in 2010.

    QNX to Support Freescale’s New Quad-core QorIQ™ P3 Products and 64-bit QorIQ e5500 Platform

    But remember this --- this is just the kernel, and nothing more.
    09-12-13 04:55 PM
  14. Nharzhool's Avatar
    Have you ever, say, taken a video on your phone, edited it, and then uploaded it somewhere?
    This is irrelevant because these apps don't even use 32 bit wide registers let alone needing the 64 bit which is entirely unnecessary...
    09-12-13 06:01 PM
  15. Nharzhool's Avatar
    Interesting indeed.

    "iPhone 5S: 1GB DRAM (makes sense)" I think the author was being ironic

    Posted via CB10
    Not ironic, facetious. There is no irony there...but I digress.

    I agree that it was a very interesting read and merely reinforced my scoff at their 64 Bit capable SoC announcement. Anyway, the ARMv8 is just a 64 bit extension. It isn't true 64 bit, just as most of the Intel and AMD chips aren't. Really just Itanium processors are truly 64 bit though I don't really know if this matters that much...perhaps this might be why there isn't a massive performance jump from 32 bit Win7 and 64 bit...not sure.

    What I do know is that even with the new battery in the 5S, it will last a shorter time and the performance might actually drop because of the processor and memory cache bloating.
    09-12-13 06:12 PM
  16. app_Developer's Avatar
    This is irrelevant because these apps don't even use 32 bit wide registers let alone needing the 64 bit which is entirely unnecessary...
    You do realize ARM is load/store, yes? So pls explain how video compression isn't bound by the number and width of registers.
    09-12-13 07:32 PM
  17. anon(2729369)'s Avatar
    3rd party apps which will be mainly 32 bit will slow down the entire OS, loading and running 32 bit libraries in parallel to the 64 bit ones.

    All iOS apps will be 64 bit and will just use more RAM.

    So I don't think the average user is going to see a speed boost.

    Sent from my Z30/3
    09-12-13 07:46 PM
  18. Cal Grainger's Avatar
    its definetly not 64 bit as that requires a min ram of 4 gb and i dont think 64 bit has been acheived on an arm device yet. i could be wrong but i think that is specific to x64 and ia-64 processing units.
    09-12-13 09:07 PM
  19. Charbel Ir's Avatar
    QNX is capable of running more than 4 Gig of ram even if its a 32 bit OS. It might actually be the only one that is capable of that, if i am not mistaken that is.
    09-13-13 01:45 PM
  20. djdragon's Avatar
    Having a 64-bit CPU along with more than 4 gigabyte of physical memory on a smartphone is practically pointless and will substantially decrease the battery life. Unless all the iOS apps are recompiled and optimized for 64-bit (something that will take years), there is no benefit of having a 64-bit CPU, other than to showoff.
    But all the consumer will latch onto is the fact the iPhone is 64-bit and other phones are not yet. Apple knows how to regurgitate snake oil quite well.

    Posted via CB10
    09-13-13 02:42 PM
  21. app_Developer's Avatar
    But all the consumer will latch onto is the fact the iPhone is 64-bit and other phones are not yet. Apple knows how to regurgitate snake oil quite well.
    What happens if an app calls an Apple framework method, which itself has been optimized for 64-bit? Apple's first 64-bit frameworks shipped in 2003. You don't think maybe some of the core frameworks, especially media, have been optimized for 64-bit over the course of ten years?
    09-13-13 04:12 PM
  22. thurask's Avatar
    But all the consumer will latch onto is the fact the iPhone is 64-bit and other phones are not yet. Apple knows how to regurgitate snake oil quite well.

    Posted via CB10
    It's the early 90s console wars all over again.

    Posted via CB10
    09-13-13 04:13 PM
  23. Gearheadaddy's Avatar
    Blah blah blah.

    Based on today's architecture, a true 64-bit program and processor will suck the life out of your battery.

    I'm not looking for bragging rights or to play graphically intensive games on my phone.

    I use it as a communication device.

    Apple knows this and are simply using this as a marketing tool. Once they start running 64-bit programs, the battery will drain faster than a keg of beer at a frat party.

    I don't want a phone that will need recharging after a few hours. The battery life on my Z10 is borderline as it is.

    Via my Z10 beta 10.4.1.1338
    10.4.1.1338? Why sir you are behind...we're all on BB11...lol

    Trusted Member
    09-13-13 04:29 PM
  24. AluminiumRims's Avatar
    Anyway, the ARMv8 is just a 64 bit extension. It isn't true 64 bit, just as most of the Intel and AMD chips aren't. Really just Itanium processors are truly 64 bit though I don't really know if this matters that much...perhaps this might be why there isn't a massive performance jump from 32 bit Win7 and 64 bit...not sure.
    ARMv8, Itanium and x86-64 are all true 64-bit processors. I don't understand what criteria you have not considering ARMv8 and x86-64 64-bit processors.
    anon62607 likes this.
    09-13-13 05:05 PM
  25. g2gcya's Avatar
    Google android will be releasing 64 bits os too for its android phone too.

    Posted via CB10
    09-13-13 09:12 PM
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