09-28-15 07:50 AM
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  1. khampasong's Avatar
    Chen is a slow learner costing BlackBerry big bucks... BB10 OS is a dead horse not worth the lead to be shot again... move on... offer the "secured" android to all recent BlackBerry devices & be done with it...

    Bumpkin
    I don't think so. I think the move to Android was planned for a long time but the development (differentiation) was not there. BlackBerry still needed to say it was alive without paying much in communication. Therefore the leap and passports. However, yes bb10 is a dead horse.

    Posted via CB10
    09-26-15 06:19 AM
  2. Ashish Dhavale's Avatar
    I think the Priv will Increase Sells No both for Priv & BB10 device .
    The thing we should look is if there is Zxx series phone in next year, this will show us future of BB10.
    BallRockReaper likes this.
    09-26-15 07:22 AM
  3. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Shareholders who are tired of billion + dollar hardware writedowns.

    The earnings call said they sold something like 800 thousand handsets this quarter. They need something like 2.5 million to even break even. Doesn't seem like releasing updated Z and Q phones can get to that. In fact every quarter since something like 2010 they've sold less and less phones.
    All those shareholders must have been really naive if they expected anything but huge writedowns while nothing but 2012 technology has been offered for 3 years, whereas since then the whole rest of the market shifted from dual-core to quad-core to eight-core, from plastic 8 Mpix cameras to multimegapixel cameras with OIS and 4K video, from 720p displays to beyond 1080p, to lots of useful integrated sensors (barometer, pedometer, etc.), and so on. What did they think, that all BlackBerry users were so loyal that they would keep buying ANTIQUES only because they had BlackBerry logo on them? Apparently not, hence the rapid marketshare decrease, i.e. millions of former loyal BlackBerry users leaving quarter by quarter.

    Every quarter the hardware they got stuck at in 2012 gets more and more dated, so there's absolutely no wonder that every quarter they do and will sell less and less of this A.D. 2012 technology while the whole rest of the mobile market is progressing. And they'll continue to sell less and less, simply because this ancient hardware will keep getting even more dated every single new day, soon to the point of not even being competitive with the lowest-end hardware of all the competitors (while still costing several times as much).

    With the hardware they got stuck at years ago, neither can they make any existing users upgrade (because all these Leaps and Classics are just repackaged Z10's and Q10's, i.e. offer absolutely no improvement to existing users), nor can they attract any new users, because even cheap low-end Android phones from Chinese brands offer better specs.

    The Passport does offer a seriously improved hardware, that's true. But it has a specific design that many people do not like. So there should have been AT LEAST a device with the same specs in the (world's most popular) full touch factor.

    Anyway, there are only two possible solutions: either they update the hardware (i.e. release new powerful phones, at least with the Passport's specs, in the remaining form-factors) or they should just quit this business and stop deluding everyone.
    int19, KAM1138, 1Criz and 1 others like this.
    09-26-15 11:18 AM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    Anyway, there are only two possible solutions: either they update the hardware (i.e. release new powerful phones, at least with the Passport's specs, in the remaining form-factors) or they should just quit this business and stop deluding everyone.
    But they are depending on sales of BB10 devices for about 40% of their revenue. They cannot live without that yet.

    So they can't officially quit the business. They can't officially end BB10 yet. But on the other hand, they aren't going to spend a lot of money getting BB10 running on the newest chipsets either. So they take this middle ground.

    And then they try the Priv and see how that does.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    09-26-15 11:31 AM
  5. anon(679606)'s Avatar
    They can't seem to:

    Make a fone shaped the way people want...
    Make an OS developers will develop...
    Follow up their allegedly rugged devices with true timely updates to prolong their useful life...
    Quash rumors they resell used devices as new...
    Give descent support...
    Compete with much bigger players with much better stuff...
    Keep from buying security companies when they claim to have already been THE security experts...
    Reach a customer base outside waterloo city limits.

    What's with those people...??
    BallRockReaper likes this.
    09-26-15 11:40 AM
  6. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    But they are depending on sales of BB10 devices for about 40% of their revenue. They cannot live without that yet.

    So they can't officially quit the business. They can't officially end BB10 yet. But on the other hand, they aren't going to spend a lot of money getting BB10 running on the newest chipsets either. So they take this middle ground.
    But they don't need to spend a lot of money getting BB10 running on the newet chipsets. The choice doesn't need to be either the latest and greatest or nothing. Instead (which would be the actual middle ground), they could spend VERY LITTLE money getting BB10 run (in Full Touch and Q form factor) on the already fully supported Passport's chipset (still delivering a 3-fold performance increase and much better camera compared to all the existing Q and Z devices) - a cost of merely designing a HOUSING for such phones. At actually no development cost, it would bring THE WHOLE RANGE of BB10 devices to at least mid-range specs of current Android phones.
    09-26-15 11:55 AM
  7. app_Developer's Avatar
    But they don't need to spend a lot of money getting BB10 running on the newet chipsets. The choice doesn't need to be either the latest and greatest or nothing. Instead (which would be the actual middle ground), they could spend VERY LITTLE money getting BB10 run (in Full Touch and Q form factor) on the already fully supported Passport's chipset (still delivering a 3-fold performance increase and much better camera compared to all the existing Q and Z devices) - a cost of merely designing a HOUSING for such phones. At actually no development cost, it would bring THE WHOLE RANGE of BB10 devices to at least mid-range specs of current Android phones.
    Yes, they could do that, but why? You have to convince the manufacturing partners to go make those phones. Remember, BB's new manufacturing partners carry the inventory themselves now. So you have to convince them that a new model or two is viable.

    And for what? Why drain sales away from the Pirv? If they think they have a shot with android, why not put all the wood behind that arrow for now?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    09-26-15 12:33 PM
  8. nvsfg's Avatar
    The elephant in the room that no one has addressed here is the economy of scale involved with sales and development of devices. If you are Samsung and sell multiple millions of devices with a developed ecosystem, you can and do purchase hardware at a lower price than competitors with a reasonable expectation that you will sell all of the hardware purchased. That in turn allows for lower payments to developers that work in their own interest to develop apps that generate revenue for them directly either through payment from the manufacturer to provide a point of differentiation from other Android systems, or app store sales.

    Blackberry does not have the ability to purchase large quantities of hardware with the expectation of quick sales, nor the ability to pay developers the type of money that developers can expect from an embedded OS like Android.


    The best example I can give you is everyone's favorite retailer Wal Mart. They approach manufacturers with their price point, not as a negotiation, but as a demand. "You can sell it to me at this price and I'll take twenty million of them, or I'll find someone with a comparable product who will". The strength of the marketplace drives cost, profit, and in some cases demand. "Everyone else has it, I better get one".

    While not a perfect analogy, I feel that it is fairly appropriate. Blackberry does not have the resources nor the market share to keep them from being laughed out of the negotiation.

    Blackberry has to much more conservative in their purchase of hardware and development. I have no "inside source" to Blackberry, but I would assume that this somewhat joint project with Samsung/Google allows them some savings in hardware. If the hardware platform already exists in some iteration or another, it should be less costly on the front end, and more resources could be focused on OS development.

    Passport. It will take you places.
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    09-26-15 01:52 PM
  9. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Yes, they could do that, but why?
    Because they're still a PHONE company, not a tomato planting company. Being a phone company, if they try to save money by NOT RELEASING phones, it won't end up any good. The Android experiment may work or it may not, no one knows. It didn't work for Nokia and many others. So at least until it turns out if it works for them, they should do the BB10 business in a decent way, at least in order to have something to go back to.

    Even the Microsoft trojan horse-driven Nokia kept releasing new Symbian phones (including the loved for its camera 808 PureView) by the very end, and it was those Symbian phones' sales (and not the Lumias) what kept Nokia alive two more years.

    Yes, they could do that, but why? And for what? Why drain sales away from the Pirv?
    Because if it turns out not to succeed, they'll end up with nothing.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 09-26-15 at 02:10 PM.
    09-26-15 01:54 PM
  10. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Blackberry does not have the ability to purchase large quantities of hardware with the expectation of quick sales, nor the ability to pay developers the type of money that developers can expect from an embedded OS like Android.
    I can't see how it would make any difference if INSTEAD of the Leap (and its ancient specs, no one clearly wants to buy) BlackBerry was manufacturing SAME AMOUNTS of a full touch phone with the Passport's hardware in it.

    It would actually make things CHEAPER if the Passport SHARED its hardware with a full touch model, as opposed to the Leap having a DIFFERENT hardware than the Passport, i.e. separate manufacturing process.

    So yes, it is the economy of scale, just IMO the reverse way than how you described it.

    Blackberry has to much more conservative in their purchase of hardware and development.
    In other words, are you suggesting that they should continue shipping Leap-like ANTIQUES that no one wants to buy even today (see the number of devices sold last quarter) as no one wants to buy what is outdated at the date of purchase, let alone using it two more years then during which it'll become archaic. It's hardly "conservative", it's completely pointless.

    As opposed to grabbing the existing Passport hardware that they already have, putting it into the Priv's acclaimed slider casing that they also already have, and this way having a high-end full touch BB10 phone at no additional development or manufacturing cost, or actually maybe cheaper if it would mean manufacturing Passport's hardware for two devices, rather than two devices with different hardware.
    09-26-15 02:07 PM
  11. southlander's Avatar
    All those shareholders must have been really naive if they expected anything but huge writedowns while nothing but 2012 technology has been offered for 3 years
    I think phones like the Moto G have sold quite well. Proving that top specs aren't always what the masses want. I think the hardcore BlackBerry users ON HERE want top specs as do the most ardent supporters of any platform. The carriers don't really care. They want a device that fills a market need and has very few returns and easy support methods.

    I think if anything the fact that BlackBerry 10 seems to need higher powered hardware was a problem in some ways.


    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    09-26-15 03:51 PM
  12. southlander's Avatar
    But they are depending on sales of BB10 devices for about 40% of their revenue. They cannot live without that yet.

    So they can't officially quit the business. They can't officially end BB10 yet. But on the other hand, they aren't going to spend a lot of money getting BB10 running on the newest chipsets either. So they take this middle ground.

    And then they try the Priv and see how that does.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    That's one inconsistency I see. The whole drivers cost too much thing seems like an excuse. They have several billion in cash. Surely that's plenty and then some. I just think they don't have any confidence in BlackBerry 10 other than in very specific environments where all that matters is security.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    09-26-15 03:56 PM
  13. TheAuthority's Avatar
    Yeah, sure. I've been hearing it since the day I bough the Z10 in early 2013. As of almost Q4 2015 (nearly 3 years) they still didn't manage to come up with any successor for it, and judging by Chen's complete silence about any new BB10 devices they won't do it anytime soon.

    I'm not a turtle, I may not live that long...
    The Z30 is the successor to the Z10. The Passport is the successor to the Q10/Q5. The Classic is a new device to appeal to users who were unwilling to adapt to Blackberry 10 without the tool belt.
    09-26-15 04:09 PM
  14. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    I think phones like the Moto G have sold quite well. Proving that top specs aren't always what the masses want.
    That's why we're not talking about anything top notch, but rather about quite a mid-range. That's what people buy the most, the golden mean, not the opposites. The Passport has such a mid-range ("just enough") hardware, but its specific form-factor scares away some people. So a traditional full touch device (which is the world's most popular form factor, way ahead of any other) with the same hardware would be an OBVIOUS company to it, attracting all those for who the Passport is too big / too square / too whatever.

    Whereas accross its entire range of BB10 phones, with the more powerful but specifically-designed Passport being the only exception, BlackBerry got stuck at 2012's hardware that now slowly stops being even a "low end" one, and has never progressed even by an inch from there.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 09-26-15 at 04:39 PM.
    09-26-15 04:22 PM
  15. app_Developer's Avatar
    That's one inconsistency I see. The whole drivers cost too much thing seems like an excuse. They have several billion in cash. Surely that's plenty and then some. I just think they don't have any confidence in BlackBerry 10 other than in very specific environments where all that matters is security.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    I don't see an inconsistency there. They are milking the platform for a couple million more units over a few quarters. That is a lot of additional cash for very little investment.

    Making new phones and sourcing latest hardware and all that is too much $, because they don't have long term confidence in the platform. I think they have demonstrated by their actions that they have no long terms plans for BB10. It's all about balancing the books these next few quarters.

    On the other hand, saying "hey, BB10 is done" would cost them say 2M sales over time which is probably a half a billion that they really need.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    09-26-15 04:25 PM
  16. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    The Z30 is the successor to the Z10.
    Of course it ISN'T. It didn't offer to a Z10 user absolutely ANYTHING that could make anyone upgrade, unless you consider its 0.2 GHz faster clock speed worth spending several hundred bucks.

    The Passport is the successor to the Q10/Q5
    Of course it ISN'T, all of them are being offered simultaneously. Besides, the Passport's size is so much different that it places it in a different form-factor. Just like a 52" TV set is not a successor to a 19" TV set sold at the same time, it is simply a separate model.

    The Classic is a new device to appeal to users who were unwilling to adapt to Blackberry 10 without the tool belt.
    Maybe the Classic is a "new device" but it still has the very same old hardware as the 2012's Z10.

    That's one inconsistency I see. The whole drivers cost too much thing seems like an excuse. They have several billion in cash.
    Moreover, they don't need to spend a single buck on using the Passport's hardware in the remaining form-factors, because they already have all drivers (and what else) for that hardware.

    So yes, it's merely a poor excuse.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 09-26-15 at 04:57 PM.
    KAM1138 likes this.
    09-26-15 04:37 PM
  17. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    I don't see an inconsistency there. They are milking the platform for a couple million more units over a few quarters. That is a lot of additional cash for very little investment. Making new phones and sourcing latest hardware and all that is too much $
    That's why, as I already wrote so many times, instead of making NEW phones with NEW hardware, they could just put the existing Passport hardware into a Z50 and Q50. No need to develop any new hardware, no need to develop any new drivers, no nothing. On the contrary, production lines reduced to making just one hardware across the entire range, i.e. some SAVINGS. 3-fold faster Q and Z phones, with the Passport's decent camera, at NO development cost. Which, even if their ultimate goal is to abandon the platform, in the coming few quarters would sell them considerably more phones, i.e. quite possibly gave them a billion rather than a half.
    09-26-15 04:48 PM
  18. southlander's Avatar
    Moreover, they don't need to spend a single buck on using the Passport's hardware in the remaining form-factors, because they already have all drivers (and what else) for that hardware.

    So yes, it's merely a poor excuse.
    They don't have any confidence in BlackBerry 10 is what I see. And that's probably smart at this point.
    09-26-15 04:59 PM
  19. southlander's Avatar
    I don't see an inconsistency there. They are milking the platform for a couple million more units over a few quarters. That is a lot of additional cash for very little investment.
    Good point. Ok.
    09-26-15 05:01 PM
  20. Benjamin Black's Avatar
    You can always write to him on Twitter. @johnchen

    Posted via CB10
    Lol grandpa Chen doesn't know how to use Twitter.

    Posted via BlackBerry Passport Silver Edition
    09-26-15 05:15 PM
  21. app_Developer's Avatar
    That's why, as I already wrote so many times, instead of making NEW phones with NEW hardware, they could just put the existing Passport hardware into a Z50 and Q50. No need to develop any new hardware, no need to develop any new drivers, no nothing. .
    You can't do all of that for free. Tell me if I'm an executive at Foxconn why I should go along with this plan. You want me to tool up a line and build inventories for two new models and you expect me to take that risk when the previous versions didn't sell? If I'm at Foxconn that makes no sense.

    An android phone makes sense because that has a chance to sell at least. People buy android phones, so it's worth a shot.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    southlander likes this.
    09-26-15 05:18 PM
  22. nvsfg's Avatar
    I can't see how it would make any difference if INSTEAD of the Leap (and its ancient specs, no one clearly wants to buy) BlackBerry was manufacturing SAME AMOUNTS of a full touch phone with the Passport's hardware in it.

    It would actually make things CHEAPER if the Passport SHARED its hardware with a full touch model, as opposed to the Leap having a DIFFERENT hardware than the Passport, i.e. separate manufacturing process.

    So yes, it is the economy of scale, just IMO the reverse way than how you described it.


    In other words, are you suggesting that they should continue shipping Leap-like ANTIQUES that no one wants to buy even today (see the number of devices sold last quarter) as no one wants to buy what is outdated at the date of purchase, let alone using it two more years then during which it'll become archaic. It's hardly "conservative", it's completely pointless.
    In no way did I indicate that Blackberry should maintain it's current marketing or production methods. The Leap was an entirely different objective. That was an attempt to get BB10 in the hands of users from other platforms/operating systems. A low price unlocked device that might give users a chance to experience BB10 OS. It was obviously not a successful attempt in that regard. My wife loves her Leap BTW. It meets her expectations for battery life's, display, and apps that she deems important.

    The idea of using some of the Passport internals across a line of devices would cut the cost of some components, but mainly just the processors. The various form factors would dictate that the boards, displays, and even keyboards would have to be spec built for each device even the Priv as the keyboard is not the same scale as the Passport.


    Look...I get your point. You are upset that Blackberry did not invest enough and build a full touch device that you feel competes with the current market selections. I agree with you in some respects.

    The point I was trying to make is that if Foxconn, makes a device with the listed specs of the Priv and it can be had for a lower price through Samsung/Google for less than the cost that Blackberry can have it built for, it is a better financial decision.


    Passport. It will take you places.
    09-26-15 05:19 PM
  23. southlander's Avatar
    You can't do all of that for free. Tell me if I'm an executive at Foxconn why I should go along with this plan. You want me to tool up a line and build inventories for two new models and you expect me to take that risk when the previous versions didn't sell? If I'm at Foxconn that makes no sense.
    Interesting. Yeah a lot of the "issues" behind the scenes are bound to be simple things like this. Not all BlackBerry's choices per se, but the constraints put on them by others.
    09-26-15 05:51 PM
  24. int19's Avatar
    But they are depending on sales of BB10 devices for about 40% of their revenue. They cannot live without that yet.

    So they can't officially quit the business. They can't officially end BB10 yet. But on the other hand, they aren't going to spend a lot of money getting BB10 running on the newest chipsets either. So they take this middle ground.

    And then they try the Priv and see how that does.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    So as I've said before, unaware consumers get to fund BlackBerry's reinvention by buying obsolete, outdated, end-of-life products.

    Blackberry's behaviour in this instance is bordering on unethical.

    Posted via CB10
    09-26-15 08:17 PM
  25. app_Developer's Avatar
    So as I've said before, unaware consumers get to fund BlackBerry's reinvention by buying obsolete, outdated, end-of-life products.

    Blackberry's behaviour in this instance is bordering on unethical.
    I wouldn't say the Passport is obsolete or outdated, would you? It's srill a good product for the price.

    But, look. Chen has been clear what his plan is for the company overall. People will hang onto one or two sentences here and there to hang on to the fantasy that BB10 has a future. I don't think you can say BB or Chen are being unethical.

    People will believe what they want. BB is sending very, very clear signals that BB10 is not in their long term plans, whether people choose to ignore those signals or not.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    southlander likes this.
    09-26-15 09:20 PM
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