09-23-15 06:13 PM
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  1. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Since this thread touches on something that has bothered me for a while, I'm going to rant here a bit too.

    What is with the rise of the whole notion of "archiving" emails into a single location anyway? If I want to archive emails, then that means that I am making a conscious decision to keep something for a long time. In order to keep something for a long time and still be able to find it if I am ever looking for it implies that I'd want to have that something "organized" in a logical fashion. In case of emails, perhaps by source. Either way, this implies that the user, person wanting to archive, is choosing a specific spot in which to archive the email where it makes sense to find it later on. This is completely contrary to the idiotic implementation of "All Mail" by Google.

    "All Mail" becomes a dumping ground for garbage that you will never be able to sift through anyway. Why not simply leave everything in the inbox at that point, or for that matter, stuff it into trash and just don't delete it. As I said before, the entire UI/UX paradigm and use case behind "All Mail" is flawed. It is a lazy approach to quasi-solving the email clutter problem.
    I see your point, but to be fair, one need not use it, which, in essence, simply makes it another option.

    Archiving works for me on the go, especially with work email.
    09-04-15 01:44 PM
  2. Jerry A's Avatar
    I see your point, but to be fair, one need not use it, which, in essence, simply makes it another option.

    Archiving works for me on the go, especially with work email.
    In addition, it's a lot easier to contextually search for an email then troll through any number of folders and sub-folders.

    No need to waste time and energy on filing when a simple archive will do the trick.
    09-04-15 01:49 PM
  3. ubizmo's Avatar
    If I want to archive emails, then that means that I am making a conscious decision to keep something for a long time. In order to keep something for a long time and still be able to find it if I am ever looking for it implies that I'd want to have that something "organized" in a logical fashion. In case of emails, perhaps by source. Either way, this implies that the user, person wanting to archive, is choosing a specific spot in which to archive the email where it makes sense to find it later on. This is completely contrary to the idiotic implementation of "All Mail" by Google.
    I agree. The point of an archive is storage for possible future access, as opposed to a big "miscellaneous" file, which is what "All mail" ends up being.
    southlander likes this.
    09-04-15 01:50 PM
  4. Jerry A's Avatar
    It's the exact same effect. It just isn't labeled that way for you. I understand. You have other options. They have been repeated throughout this thread. We don't always get what we want. Had the OP not been such a hothead in his original posts this thread might have gone a better route. Unfortunately he set the tone from the start.

    BBClassic10.3.2.2639
    It's not the same effect. I can't file an email to the "same effect."

    Presenting alternatives and options is great. It still doesn't mean that the original problem doesn't exist.

    Great, the OP set a harsh tone. That's fine, everyone wants to be cranky in this thread. Whatever. Be cranky without making excuses for the missing functionality. Take a harsh tone but stop deflecting the deficiencies back on the user.
    09-04-15 01:56 PM
  5. dejanh's Avatar
    In addition, it's a lot easier to contextually search for an email then troll through any number of folders and sub-folders.

    No need to waste time and energy on filing when a simple archive will do the trick.
    Context does not matter here. Search also does not require you to search individual folders one by one. Global search is just as efficient when searching one giant pile of stuff or seven slightly smaller giant piles of stuff. However, search is more efficient if you already know where your search target is likely to be, in which case you may need to search just one out of seven giant piles. By the same token of logic, why organize any information in any way? What is even the point of any metadata? Note, I am not looking for an answer. These are rhetorical questions.
    I agree. The point of an archive is storage for possible future access, as opposed to a big "miscellaneous" file, which is what "All mail" ends up being.
    Precisely. It is convenient to archive everything, but it is just a big "other" folder. As I already pointed out, this was Google's poor attempt at de-cluttering your inbox.
    09-04-15 01:57 PM
  6. Jerry A's Avatar
    Context does not matter here. Search also does not require you to search individual folders one by one. Global search is just as efficient when searching one giant pile of stuff or seven slightly smaller giant piles of stuff. However, search is more efficient if you already know where your search target is likely to be, in which case you may need to search just one out of seven giant piles. By the same token of logic, why organize any information in any way? What is even the point of any metadata? Note, I am not looking for an answer. These are rhetorical questions.

    Precisely. It is convenient to archive everything, but it is just a big "other" folder. As I already pointed out, this was Google's poor attempt at de-cluttering your inbox.
    Your rhetorical response is purely subjective. It's more efficient to the way you think and want to process information. Doesn't mean that's true for others.

    The tools nowadays have become sufficiently advanced that either approach is valid.
    09-04-15 02:07 PM
  7. BCITMike's Avatar
    I'm a certified teacher, let me help you increase your reading comprehension skills.

    --STV posting from his now-legacy, relic BlackBerry Z30
    I still remember my pathetically bad teachers. It's the kids that suffer.

    Posted via CB10
    09-04-15 02:31 PM
  8. BCITMike's Avatar
    Great, you found the article that tells people to stop using the pre-Maverick instructions.

    You also point out that Apple gave their users what they wanted and provided an option to change the behavior.

    And then toss in your own assumptions about how using this setting negatively affects performance (speaking from experience an only for myself, it doesn't - but it does chew up space - which is okay for me, I have it to spare).

    None of which is really relevant, but whatever.

    How about some more data points? iOS native mail app, Boxer, Outlook on Android and iOS, BlueMail, Samsung's mail app, HTC's mail app, etc.

    You know what all of those programs do that BB10 has never done? Handle All Mail, Archiving and Deleting Gmail messages properly.

    But hey, let's stick our head in the sand, pretend there's no issue and vilify community members who raise concerns.
    Did you read those articles? There was no choice provided. You HAD to have it off, now you need it ON. They made this change regardless of users desire. It also was half baked and has problems. Performance issues specifically mentioned.

    Also, it doubles your mail size. It's stated lots of places. So if you think that's irrelevant, who's head is in the sand?

    Posted via CB10
    09-04-15 02:40 PM
  9. dejanh's Avatar
    Your rhetorical response is purely subjective. It's more efficient to the way you think and want to process information. Doesn't mean that's true for others.
    Human brain does not process chaos as chaos. It always tries to create order. Your method of achieving order may be different than mine, but neither of us (nor a computer) operates well in a purely chaotic environment. The more disorder there is, the harder it is to make sense of information. This is not subjective. This is science.
    09-04-15 02:43 PM
  10. Jerry A's Avatar
    Human brain does not process chaos as chaos. It always tries to create order. Your method of achieving order may be different than mine, but neither of us (nor a computer) operates well in a purely chaotic environment. The more disorder there is, the harder it is to make sense of information. This is not subjective. This is science.
    Your analogy is flawed. To the machine the folders are arbitrary (and potentially) unnecessary constructs it regards to indexing and metadata sorting.
    09-04-15 02:55 PM
  11. BCITMike's Avatar
    I want to delete and I want to archive. Ideally, I'd like to do so without workarounds and excuses. Why is that illogical?

    I also want a community where members can express a dissenting opinion without the mob resorting to personal attacks and ad hominem, non-relevant, circular arguments? Why is that illogical?
    Are you reading the same thread as us in terms of attack and insults? Look at OPS remarks.

    We think "you're doing it wrong" and explaining why. You're saying "because I want to do it this backwards way". There's very little rational and you have a work around available to you. You're also in the minority.

    Nothing is stopping you from archiving. Is removing all labels and having it in one big "All mail" folder beneficial in some way?

    I think this is circular because we are not on the "All mail" bandwagon, don't use it and don't see why one would. I still don't know the argument for having it other than "because everyone else has it", problems be damned.


    Posted via CB10
    09-04-15 02:55 PM
  12. extisis's Avatar
    Huh?
    ignore button QUICK. don't waste your time.
    09-04-15 02:57 PM
  13. abass's Avatar
    I've just kinda accepted that the HUB on Android will probably handle this better. I use gmail for my personal, work, and college accounts (Google Apps for Work/Education), and the HUB experience has never been perfect. Just a few weeks ago though, I FINALLY started using "archive" on the web client, and now I'm driving myself insane in the HUB. Completely agree with OP, it's ridiculous. The real solution that they need is if it's a google account, it should automatically add in an option to "archive". All this does is simply moves the email from inbox and places it in "All Mail" (aka, just removing the "Inbox" label).

    Most of the people here who are arguing this point probably do not use archive. Because I thought the HUB experience was great, up until realizing how useful the "archive" feature is. I swear, noone on this dev team must use gmail because this is such a big oversight..
    09-04-15 03:33 PM
  14. kgbbz10's Avatar
    I've just kinda accepted that the HUB on Android will probably handle this better. I use gmail for my personal, work, and college accounts (Google Apps for Work/Education), and the HUB experience has never been perfect. Just a few weeks ago though, I FINALLY started using "archive" on the web client, and now I'm driving myself insane in the HUB. Completely agree with OP, it's ridiculous. The real solution that they need is if it's a google account, it should automatically add in an option to "archive". All this does is simply moves the email from inbox and places it in "All Mail" (aka, just removing the "Inbox" label).

    Most of the people here who are arguing this point probably do not use archive. Because I thought the HUB experience was great, up until realizing how useful the "archive" feature is. I swear, noone on this dev team must use gmail because this is such a big oversight..
    I covered this on the first page. You can have your email sync whatever folders you wish and then you can have it set to archive, so when you click the three bars with a check mark in the top right corner of the Hub it gives you the option to archive which gives you the option to choose which folder you want to save it to.

    How is this an oversight, limition etc, when it does exactly what you ppl are asking for? Seriously not understanding what the issue is.

    BBClassic10.3.2.2639
    diegonei likes this.
    09-04-15 03:38 PM
  15. abass's Avatar
    I covered this on the first page. You can have your email sync whatever folders you wish and then you can have it set to archive, so when you click the three bars with a check mark in the top right corner of the Hub it gives you the option to archive which gives you the option to choose which folder you want to save it to.

    How is this an oversight, limition etc, when it does exactly what you ppl are asking for? Seriously not understanding what the issue is.

    BBClassic10.3.2.2639
    There is no "archive" option as you explain it. The three bars you're referring to is called the "email triage" and there are 3 actions you can set, none of which is "archive". There's File/Flag/Delete.

    What you're referring to is the "File" action, which isn't the same as "archive". Gmail uses labels instead of a "folder" structure, and new emails are given the "inbox" label by default. By clicking "file" and then choosing a folder, it does not remove the "inbox" label, thus it is not properly archiving it. It still keeps it in the "inbox" view when you check out the web version of Gmail. All it does is add another label to the email for whatever you selected.

    And even if the "solution" that you mentioned worked for what we are trying to make it do (simply remove the "inbox" label from the email) then that's still a two step process, of which is not very quick either. Having to click "file" then choosing the folder, and waiting each time, it involves tapping twice. Which doesn't seem like a lot, but when you're doing it for 95% of the emails that come in, it's a pain. And again, it doesn't even do what we are trying to make it properly do. Seriously, I think you guys haven't used the "archive" option in gmail. It's really not confusing what the OP is referring to.
    09-04-15 04:30 PM
  16. abass's Avatar
    Are you reading the same thread as us in terms of attack and insults? Look at OPS remarks.

    We think "you're doing it wrong" and explaining why. You're saying "because I want to do it this backwards way". There's very little rational and you have a work around available to you. You're also in the minority.

    Nothing is stopping you from archiving. Is removing all labels and having it in one big "All mail" folder beneficial in some way?

    I think this is circular because we are not on the "All mail" bandwagon, don't use it and don't see why one would. I still don't know the argument for having it other than "because everyone else has it", problems be damned.


    Posted via CB10
    You mention "having it all in one big "all mail" folder as not being beneficial", but if it wasn't, why would Gmail make it such a big feature in both Gmail AND Inbox by Google?

    The point of removing all labels is that they expect you to work out of the "inbox". This is essentially a folder (yes, it's a label, but in theory, it's a folder) of working emails. These are emails that you have to reply to, deal with, etc. short-term. Many people just leave all the emails they still have to deal with marked as "unread" as a temporary solution, but that's a pain in the @ss and a pretty bad habit to have (I have it at times).

    The point of archiving (removing the inbox label) is simply to remove it from the "working directory folder" if you will that is "inbox". It's in effect allowing you to treat your email as if you are deleting all working messages when you are done with them short-term, but allowing you to still reference them in the future. The whole point of what we are explaining is one of the large ways that Google and many other clients expects people to use their mail client. The whole term "inbox 0" was derived from that methodology. You achieve "inbox 0" by having no emails in your "inbox". You can do that by deleting them all (which is a TERRIBLE idea because you'll never be able to reference old emails ever..), or you can archive them all (by removing the "inbox" label, of which is natively built into gmail and is an important functionality.

    In order to understand the problem we are explaining, you have to understand the way that Gmail works compared to other email providers:

    BlackBerry is treating the HUB as a general email aggregation tool. And the problem is that they are treating gmail the same way that they treat all other clients. That's the problem, because most email clients treat inboxes in a "folder" system. So you have your emails that come in (which are in no folders), and when you want to archive them, they have an "archive" folder that you send them off to. Gmail is different, imagine that all emails are in effect immediately sent to the "archive" folder (which would be no labels at all), and then the label of "inbox" is placed on the new ones that just come in. By removing the label "inbox" it is then in effect moved to the "archive" - The confusion here is that Gmail does not work the same way as other email clients. By having no labels on an email whatsoever, that is an "archived" email. If it has the label "inbox" then it is an un-archived email. So being able to remove the "inbox" label directly from the HUB is immensely important because it's how you in effect archive an email on Gmail.
    Last edited by Flip4Bytes; 09-04-15 at 04:51 PM.
    09-04-15 04:40 PM
  17. dejanh's Avatar
    Your analogy is flawed. To the machine the folders are arbitrary (and potentially) unnecessary constructs it regards to indexing and metadata sorting.
    I'm not even sure what to tell you. Data structure is important in so many ways in order to be able to efficiently index/search/use data. I think you're getting caught up on the word "folder" for no reason. Just because computing power is cheap these days, does not mean that we throw out the entire science on how to best organize data for specific uses.
    Most of the people here who are arguing this point probably do not use archive. Because I thought the HUB experience was great, up until realizing how useful the "archive" feature is. I swear, noone on this dev team must use gmail because this is such a big oversight..
    Care to explain how it is useful? To date nobody has managed to convince me that it is anything more than a dumping ground for things that you may or may not get back to at some point in the future. A lazy cop-out for "organizing" email. Clearly, I have a strong opinion about this, but I do want to hear your side of the argument. How is it useful?

    For the record, I read your post directly above, and you did not provide an explanation of how it is useful. You pretty much recited a very particular use case that is itself flawed. Let's use an analogy.

    Say that I told you "the floor is dusty, please clean it". You then grab a broom, but instead of cleaning the floor and removing the dust from the floor all together, you sweep it under a sofa where it can't be seen. You will then come to me and say "all done, no more dust on the floor". Have you cleaned the floor or have you just moved the dust that was distributed all over to one spot, still leaving it on the floor and by definition still leaving the floor dirty?

    Tying this analogy back to managing your inbox, if you had an "important email" that you did not want to address and instead you just moved it to the archive folder, then did you really do any work? Likewise, say that you did read the email but did not action on it and then you archived it, did you then do any work? Continuing along the same lines, say that you read the email, actioned on it, and then archived it, did you actually think about how you want to use this email in the future? The goal isn't to keep your inbox to zero emails, the goal is to reduce the number of emails that are received and retained in general. Google, by the virtue of archive, is in fact encouraging keeping the clutter all there, all the time, forever (I'll give you a hint, this actually benefits Google), just hidden from sight. They are not encouraging better email habits.
    Last edited by dejanh; 09-04-15 at 04:57 PM.
    09-04-15 04:45 PM
  18. diegonei's Avatar
    Hey Alex!

    I have to side with kgbbz10 on this one (delete is delete, archive is archive - and I too thought archive and file were the same thing), but by all means, if you say there is some merit to the OP's case, I'm willing to hear you out.

    See you next Upstream! I'll try to be there in time! ><

    EDIT: Reading post #116 I get what you're saying. I too use the archive feature from Gmail. But that's the thing. Archive is archive. Archive is not delete.

    Knowing this (and since this is a Gmail feature), the OP really should set the HUB to delete on the device only and do the archiving on a PC or manually. Is it perfect? No. But I really can't blame it on BlackBerry since this is not a email standard. If all solutions were using Archive/Labels, then yes. I'd be shouting for support.

    But they aren't. So let's cut BlackBerry some slack on this one case.

    Care to explain how it is useful? To date nobody has managed to convince me that it is anything more than a dumping ground for things that you may or may not get back to at some point in the future. A lazy cop-out for "organizing" email. Clearly, I have a strong opinion about this, but I do want to hear your side of the argument. How is it useful?
    Allow me! Do you know when you are working and you're done with a whole project but you know you can't delete any of the files, so you move them to a separate folder. Archive lable is the same idea, but for email. If you're operating under ISO 9001 for example, you're very likely to have to save documents for X number of time (weeks/months/years) and emails would probably fall into that rule. So Archive from Gmail removes the clutter from the Inbox, while allowing you to keep the emails (should you need to refer to them by whatever reason).

    Does a folder serve the same purpose? Yes. I do that for all my accounts, Gmail happens to do it better.

    Still don't think the OP is right on his claim. It's not a standard. Could BlackBerry do it? Yes. Should they? Only if they have the free time, they have better stuff wo worry about.
    09-04-15 04:53 PM
  19. kgbbz10's Avatar
    There is no "archive" option as you explain it. The three bars you're referring to is called the "email triage" and there are 3 actions you can set, none of which is "archive". There's File/Flag/Delete.

    What you're referring to is the "File" action, which isn't the same as "archive". Gmail uses labels instead of a "folder" structure, and new emails are given the "inbox" label by default. By clicking "file" and then choosing a folder, it does not remove the "inbox" label, thus it is not properly archiving it. It still keeps it in the "inbox" view when you check out the web version of Gmail. All it does is add another label to the email for whatever you selected.

    And even if the "solution" that you mentioned worked for what we are trying to make it do (simply remove the "inbox" label from the email) then that's still a two step process, of which is not very quick either. Having to click "file" then choosing the folder, and waiting each time, it involves tapping twice. Which doesn't seem like a lot, but when you're doing it for 95% of the emails that come in, it's a pain. And again, it doesn't even do what we are trying to make it properly do. Seriously, I think you guys haven't used the "archive" option in gmail. It's really not confusing what the OP is referring to.
    Then you have it set up wrong because when I file (archive) an email to a folder it places it in the folder and removes it from gmails inbox.
    I know you're not seriously complaining about having to touch something twice because this thread is petty enough without ppl complaining they have to touch things twice.

    BBClassic10.3.2.2639
    09-04-15 05:04 PM
  20. HabsFan9860's Avatar
    My solution is that I just don't use Gmail (not a fan of anything Google anyway) or any webmail service...once upon it may have been useful when you wanted to track your mIl when you weren't at home, but these days everyone has their cell with them 24/7 hence your home based email (POP or whatever)...and with Blend software you get it all on a big screen...one device, one setup, one mobile solution...and I can archive the hell out of my home based account...

    Posted on CB10 via my Z30....
    09-04-15 05:08 PM
  21. tw_'s Avatar
    What you're referring to is the "File" action, which isn't the same as "archive". Gmail uses labels instead of a "folder" structure, and new emails are given the "inbox" label by default. By clicking "file" and then choosing a folder, it does not remove the "inbox" label, thus it is not properly archiving it. It still keeps it in the "inbox" view when you check out the web version of Gmail. All it does is add another label to the email for whatever you selected.
    This is untrue. At least for me (I'm still using 10.3.1) the "file" action removes the inbox label and the mail is moved to the folder I selected (i.e. tagged with the folder name).

    And even if the "solution" that you mentioned worked for what we are trying to make it do (simply remove the "inbox" label from the email) then that's still a two step process, of which is not very quick either. Having to click "file" then choosing the folder, and waiting each time, it involves tapping twice. Which doesn't seem like a lot, but when you're doing it for 95% of the emails that come in, it's a pain. And again, it doesn't even do what we are trying to make it properly do. Seriously, I think you guys haven't used the "archive" option in gmail. It's really not confusing what the OP is referring to.
    Actually it is confusing. Because it appears to me that what the OP wants is the "delete" button to work like an "archive" ("get out of my face") button. Also he wants to see the Google style "All Mail" folder so he can access all mails. I use Flag / Priority and also the filtered "Priority Hub" view for the important stuff. Also when I want to delete a mail I want to delete and when I want to move a mail to another folder I want to move it like other people have pointed out.

    Otherwise I had to process my Inbox multiple times. But some people seem to prefer it for whatever reason.

    Anyway it is very easy to make your own catch all label in Gmail and have it visible in BB10 and Outlook 2013. (I don't see the Google style "All Mail" in Outlook 2013 either.) Just create another label and call it whatever you want. Like "All My Mails". Then create a Gmail filter and set it up to automatically assign the label "All My Mails" to all incoming mail if the mail is bigger than 1 byte. Also apply it to all stored mails.

    Gmail will not delete mails except if all labels are removed. So mails will remain in the "All My Mails" folder until you delete them there. (Even then you can configure your settings that they will be moved to Trash.)

    When you refresh the connection in BB10 you will see the "All My Mails" label as folder in BB10 and you can enable folder synchronization for it. Same applies for Outlook 2013.
    southlander and cbvinh like this.
    09-04-15 05:36 PM
  22. southlander's Avatar
    Use Android with Aquamail. It's pretty great. BlackBerry might add an option to accommodate either behavior. But not very soon I'd bet.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    09-04-15 05:43 PM
  23. Jerry A's Avatar
    I want to save it to "All Mail" folder. Please, please, please, please tell me how to do so.

    Don't know how to make the issue any plainer than that.
    09-04-15 06:08 PM
  24. kgbbz10's Avatar
    I want to save it to "All Mail" folder. Please, please, please, please tell me how to do so.

    Don't know how to make the issue any plainer than that.
    All mail isn't a folder, it pulls emails from folders. It's aesthetic that's it.

    BBClassic10.3.2.2639
    09-04-15 06:11 PM
  25. BCITMike's Avatar
    This is untrue. At least for me (I'm still using 10.3.1) the "file" action removes the inbox label and the mail is moved to the folder I selected (i.e. tagged with the folder name).


    Actually it is confusing. Because it appears to me that what the OP wants is the "delete" button to work like an "archive" ("get out of my face") button. Also he wants to see the Google style "All Mail" folder so he can access all mails. I use Flag / Priority and also the filtered "Priority Hub" view for the important stuff. Also when I want to delete a mail I want to delete and when I want to move a mail to another folder I want to move it like other people have pointed out.

    Otherwise I had to process my Inbox multiple times. But some people seem to prefer it for whatever reason.

    Anyway it is very easy to make your own catch all label in Gmail and have it visible in BB10 and Outlook 2013. (I don't see the Google style "All Mail" in Outlook 2013 either.) Just create another label and call it whatever you want. Like "All My Mails". Then create a Gmail filter and set it up to automatically assign the label "All My Mails" to all incoming mail if the mail is bigger than 1 byte. Also apply it to all stored mails.

    Gmail will not delete mails except if all labels are removed. So mails will remain in the "All My Mails" folder until you delete them there. (Even then you can configure your settings that they will be moved to Trash.)

    When you refresh the connection in BB10 you will see the "All My Mails" label as folder in BB10 and you can enable folder synchronization for it. Same applies for Outlook 2013.
    2013 doesn't subscribe to the "All Mail" folder by default. Or if it does, it doesn't work until manually subscribed (came across while googling yesterday).

    BlackBerry removed (if it had it before) the ability to Subscribe to the All Mail folder. Whether giving the option is as simple as showing the All Mail folder to be subscribed, I doubt it. But a better thread title without emotional rant would have been "Unable to subscribe to "All Mail" Gmail label/folder".
    09-04-15 06:13 PM
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