BlackBerry doesn't care that Hub now improperly handles Gmail

Originally Posted by BCITMike

Your thinking:
Delete != delete.

My thinking:
Delete = Delete
file = Archive

Therefore, backwards.

This whole "archive" but still there is confusing. When you "Archive" something in a desktop client, the emails are removed from the server and no longer syncing. With Gmail, archives are not pushed off to the side and only called upon when searched intentionally, it's the same as just organizing email in a desktop client. So "archive" in Gmail's sense seems ambiguous to me.

I still don't understand your work flow/triage to make sense of why you handle email this way. We just don't understand. You're not helping, just defending.

Why can't you accept Gmail has intentionally introduced a non-standard feature intentionally to cause problems for standard clients and does not properly support mail clients to be able to handle this feature?

Why can't you accept that the majority of people do not see benefit of this feature and may cause additional storage and battery impact?

Why do you keep thinking that this "feature" should be treated like a standard and every client has to put in a kludge to support Gmail's proprietary feature?

I don't think YOU are "accept[ing] that others can and will do things differently from you", in fact, the majority. I feel a *whoosh* when you say things like that and we're talking right past each other.

No, I'm thinking delete is delete. And file is archive. I've said that like 4 times already on this thread. Keep up! :)

I think you fail to grasp how Archiving works. When you archive something it's still on the server, just in "All Mail." And it doesn't need to be "pushed off to the side." I can just as much view "All Mail" on the web interface as I can on OSX Mail, or Windows Mail or Outlook 2013 or all the other mobile clients I've listed previously.

You don't understand my workflow/triage, because you've never asked me about it. You've constantly gone back to we must be doing it wrong if we're not doing it your way. Or it must be wrong if it's any other way than the way BB10 works today (hint, in the past BB could handle this case just fine, even if it was with the Gmail-RPN way of "delete = archive, file to trash = delete").

I don't see a majority. What I see are a few people in a thread acting as though they speak for the entire world.

Once again, just to be plain. I accept that you do things differently from me. That doesn't negate that there's a functionality issue. You seem unwilling or unable to accept that fact and the fact that others process their mail differently than you.

Originally Posted by diegonei

Allow me! Do you know when you are working and you're done with a whole project but you know you can't delete any of the files, so you move them to a separate folder. Archive lable is the same idea, but for email. If you're operating under ISO 9001 for example, you're very likely to have to save documents for X number of time (weeks/months/years) and emails would probably fall into that rule. So Archive from Gmail removes the clutter from the Inbox, while allowing you to keep the emails (should you need to refer to them by whatever reason).

Does a folder serve the same purpose? Yes. I do that for all my accounts, Gmail happens to do it better.

Let's use your project analogy for a second.

When you complete a project, you would archive the files in a logical spot. The spot may be a broader archive, but it will have some further segregation of data in that archive. It will not be just a massive dumping ground for everything that you've ever done with no rhyme or reason as to how it is organized precisely because you may want to refer to it at some point in time. This is precisely why Gmail in fact does not do it better.

Gmail actually reinforces the idea that it does not matter whether you are finished with something or not, or to think about whether it makes sense to keep something, as there is always a way to brush things under the carpet and forget about it. Just because you have unlimited storage, does not mean that you should fill it up. It is the equivalent of how people hoard things at home. The bigger the home, the more stuff there is. How much of that stuff is actually useful? It does not matter, because likely you will never touch it again. It just takes up space. If you ever had to use it again, it would take you ages to sift through the piles and piles of stuff before you can maybe find what you are after, precisely because there was no system to organize it to begin with.

"All Mail" archive allows you to be disorganized. It is quite the opposite of keeping your email clean.

Originally Posted by STV0726

I don't want delete to archive. That was a workaround because BlackBerry never did it right from day one.

But I preferred that over BlackBerry suddenly silently trashing my emails.

And my real preference is to have delete delete, and archive archive. And if no direct archive function, then have all mail as a map option for deleting.

That simple. It's not backwards. You just aren't reading it. I'm sorry to can't read properly.

It appears that you don't really understand how the Gmail labeling system works.

With Gmail there is no need at all to map the Trash folder to "All Mail". Because all mails are by definition are there anyway by default. The only exception to this behavior happens when you configure the Gmail server side to delete mails as soon as all labels visible for IMAP are removed from a mail. If you don't do that all incoming mails will remain there.

The "archiving" button (or swipe gesture) in the Android Gmail app just removes the "Inbox" label from mails in the Inbox. If they have additonal labels these are not removed. "Archiving" is nothing but a shortcut for a certain label remove.

So it doesn't even matter whether they have additional labels. I described in #121 how you can tag any mail with an additional label which is mapped to a folder in BB10. So you can see all your "archived mails" this way also in BB10 if you subscribe to that folder.

Originally Posted by tw_

I already explained it. Because you want to "save" something to to the "All Mail" folder which makes no sense since by definition all mails are always there.

Also you don't understand what "archiving" is. When you use Androids Gmail app and you "archive" a mail all it is doing is removing the "Inbox" label. So it is only visible in the "All Mail" folder. But it doesn't move the mail to that folder or something.

This is the reason the workaround I described in #121 works. It just keeps an additional label to all mails.

You're correct, I want to file something to "All Mail" because that replicates the archive functionality when using an IMAP client with Gmail.

Feel free to check out the following: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/77657?hl=en
Removing the file from Inbox (via delete or move) will remove the Inbox label.

I totally get how the Gmail app works. I don't think you get how the apps which use IMAP to connect to Gmail work.

The whole point is that there are plenty of other mail applications that properly handle this scenario (many even have a handy Archive button so you don't need to file and pick a folder). The whole purpose being that you use one app/interface to manage all your email. Hey, sounds just like the BB10 Hub.

The only difference is that Hub can't handle this situation without workarounds and excuses.

Seriously, do you think this is going to fly with users once the BB Experience Suite gets released for Android and iOS? I can see the reviews now "For a company that prides itself on managing email, this Hub app is junk. No wonder BlackBerry is a failing company."

If delete sends your mail to archive, if wouldnt be delete at all.

And I remember gmail having a setting to archive under imap settings.

Originally Posted by Jerry A

You're correct, I want to file something to "All Mail" because that replicates the archive functionality when using an IMAP client with Gmail.

Feel free to check out the following: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/77657?hl=en
Removing the file from Inbox (via delete or move) will remove the Inbox label.

I totally get how the Gmail app works. I don't think you get how the apps which use IMAP to connect to Gmail work.

No you still don't get it and you don't understand the Gmail Help article you are linking to.

It says "**When you delete messages in IMAP clients, it removes the message from your Gmail inbox but doesn't permanently delete the message. If you want to permanently delete the message, see Deleting IMAP messages."

1. ) But it does NOT mean that you need to map Trash to "All Mail" or something. You don't. When the client (any client) deletes the mail on server it will just remove the "Inbox" label. But it does not delete it finally (except if you intentionally have Gmail configured to do this). Thus deleting it is the same thing as "archiving". This means Gmail-archiving works out of the box also with BB10 (10.3.1) when you delete. All mails remain in "All Mail" as well as in other folders when they have additonal labels.

2.) The only issue in BB10 is that you cannot search in the virtual "All Mail" folder on the device. A workaround for this is to have Gmail to tag automatically all incoming mails on the server side with an additonal label. You can than subscribe to that label (folder) on BB10 and search them on the device. If you just would have tried the workaround I described in #121 you would see that it works.

Originally Posted by Jerry A

No, I'm thinking delete is delete. And file is archive. I've said that like 4 times already on this thread. Keep up! :)

I think you fail to grasp how Archiving works. When you archive something it's still on the server, just in "All Mail." And it doesn't need to be "pushed off to the side." I can just as much view "All Mail" on the web interface as I can on OSX Mail, or Windows Mail or Outlook 2013 or all the other mobile clients I've listed previously.

You don't understand my workflow/triage, because you've never asked me about it. You've constantly gone back to we must be doing it wrong if we're not doing it your way. Or it must be wrong if it's any other way than the way BB10 works today (hint, in the past BB could handle this case just fine, even if it was with the Gmail-RPN way of "delete = archive, file to trash = delete").

I don't see a majority. What I see are a few people in a thread acting as though they speak for the entire world.

Once again, just to be plain. I accept that you do things differently from me. That doesn't negate that there's a functionality issue. You seem unwilling or unable to accept that fact and the fact that others process their mail differently than you.

"I think you fail to grasp how Archiving works." You mean "I think you fail to grasp how Gmail Archiving works.

We can plainly see it doesn't implement the feature you want. No argument there. We disagree on BlackBerry NEEDING to implement this functionality.

In Outlook desktop, you cannot remove the Inbox "label" and have no label/folder. This is Gmail's implementation of existing without a label! You cannot put emails in the root of the mailbox in any standard imap client, only in folders. If you were to migrate your email from Gmail to a standard imap service, it would create a folder "All mail" and duplicate them all there. No label on Gmail server, label on imap server.

To me, Gmail's "archive" just means organized or filed. It's not removed from the server like Outlook does when it archives. If I have a 4GB pst, I archive half, then my pst goes down to 2GB and a 2GB archive pst is made. If I connect a new device to this account, it will download 2GB of mail, not 4GB. This doesn't happen in Gmail. The mail is ALWAYS there, just LABELLED SPECIAL. So I consider this bastardization of "archive".

"You don't understand my workflow/triage, because you've never asked me about it. "

Seriously? All the times I said I/we don't understand your work flow, you feel like I "never asked for it?" You haven't shown benefit of needing this, other than to say Gmail is big, and others did it (will skip the jumping off bridge argument).

Originally Posted by Flip4Bytes

You mention "having it all in one big "all mail" folder as not being beneficial", but if it wasn't, why would Gmail make it such a big feature in both Gmail AND Inbox by Google?

The point of removing all labels is that they expect you to work out of the "inbox". This is essentially a folder (yes, it's a label, but in theory, it's a folder) of working emails. These are emails that you have to reply to, deal with, etc. short-term. Many people just leave all the emails they still have to deal with marked as "unread" as a temporary solution, but that's a pain in the @ss and a pretty bad habit to have (I have it at times).

The point of archiving (removing the inbox label) is simply to remove it from the "working directory folder" if you will that is "inbox". It's in effect allowing you to treat your email as if you are deleting all working messages when you are done with them short-term, but allowing you to still reference them in the future. The whole point of what we are explaining is one of the large ways that Google and many other clients expects people to use their mail client. The whole term "inbox 0" was derived from that methodology. You achieve "inbox 0" by having no emails in your "inbox". You can do that by deleting them all (which is a TERRIBLE idea because you'll never be able to reference old emails ever..), or you can archive them all (by removing the "inbox" label, of which is natively built into gmail and is an important functionality.

In order to understand the problem we are explaining, you have to understand the way that Gmail works compared to other email providers:

BlackBerry is treating the HUB as a general email aggregation tool. And the problem is that they are treating gmail the same way that they treat all other clients. That's the problem, because most email clients treat inboxes in a "folder" system. So you have your emails that come in (which are in no folders), and when you want to archive them, they have an "archive" folder that you send them off to. Gmail is different, imagine that all emails are in effect immediately sent to the "archive" folder (which would be no labels at all), and then the label of "inbox" is placed on the new ones that just come in. By removing the label "inbox" it is then in effect moved to the "archive" - The confusion here is that Gmail does not work the same way as other email clients. By having no labels on an email whatsoever, that is an "archived" email. If it has the label "inbox" then it is an un-archived email. So being able to remove the "inbox" label directly from the HUB is immensely important because it's how you in effect archive an email on Gmail.

In other words: it's all just a bunch of engineering and developer double talk.

Originally Posted by Jerry A

You're correct, I want to file something to "All Mail" because that replicates the archive functionality when using an IMAP client with Gmail.

Feel free to check out the following: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/77657?hl=en
Removing the file from Inbox (via delete or move) will remove the Inbox label.

I totally get how the Gmail app works. I don't think you get how the apps which use IMAP to connect to Gmail work.

The whole point is that there are plenty of other mail applications that properly handle this scenario (many even have a handy Archive button so you don't need to file and pick a folder). The whole purpose being that you use one app/interface to manage all your email. Hey, sounds just like the BB10 Hub.

The only difference is that Hub can't handle this situation without workarounds and excuses.

Seriously, do you think this is going to fly with users once the BB Experience Suite gets released for Android and iOS? I can see the reviews now "For a company that prides itself on managing email, this Hub app is junk. No wonder BlackBerry is a failing company."

So finally, please explain your workflow/process and how you use All Mail. Official request.

I'm glad that BlackBerry continues to retain the ideals that make "a BlackBerry."

"Delete" has a specific meaning and "archive" has its own. Gmail is at fault here for conflating concepts that are mutually exclusive, nay, OPPOSITES.

If you want Gmail behaviour in the handling of your mail, then use gmail to "delete?" them. When companies are allowed to misuse language in such callous ways, you end up with lots of misinformation and systems that eschew practicality and sense for the sake of convenience.

Shame on Google for showing a "delete" button to a user who wanted to "archive" their mail... (and all the other privacy-subverting "conveniences" that make up Android)

OP Blackberry has bigger fish to fry.
Feel free to complain though.
Glad you decided to stay around.

Originally Posted by STV0726

They aren't listening to what the real problem is.

To the contrary I think most everyone understands. BlackBerry changed the behavior. Tw_ gave you a pretty good workaround though and that is about the best you'll do unless you have the ear of some high up devs at BlackBerry.

PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339

Originally Posted by dejanh

Just because you have unlimited storage, does not mean that you should fill it up. It is the equivalent of how people hoard things at home.

But friend, did you miss the part you I said "X amount of time"? I did not mean either fill it up or keep forever.

I also don't mean BB should be wasting time getting a specific Gmail thing into the OS when they have much more important stuff to do (like, responding to all my bug lists that I send weekly). But there are user case scenarios where archiving (in a big pile of I don't care) could be useful.

I myself have an Archive folder with project subfolders for files, but heck if I am bothered sorting thousands of email. As soon as the due time comes, it all burns so why care?

Originally Posted by tw_

Actually it is confusing. Because it appears to me that what the OP wants is the "delete" button to work like an "archive" ("get out of my face") button. Also he wants to see the Google style "All Mail" folder so he can access all mails. I use Flag / Priority and also the filtered "Priority Hub" view for the important stuff. Also when I want to delete a mail I want to delete and when I want to move a mail to another folder I want to move it like other people have pointed out.

Otherwise I had to process my Inbox multiple times. But some people seem to prefer it for whatever reason.

Anyway it is very easy to make your own catch all label in Gmail and have it visible in BB10 and Outlook 2013. (I don't see the Google style "All Mail" in Outlook 2013 either.) Just create another label and call it whatever you want. Like "All My Mails". Then create a Gmail filter and set it up to automatically assign the label "All My Mails" to all incoming mail if the mail is bigger than 1 byte. Also apply it to all stored mails.

Gmail will not delete mails except if all labels are removed. So mails will remain in the "All My Mails" folder until you delete them there. (Even then you can configure your settings that they will be moved to Trash.)

When you refresh the connection in BB10 you will see the "All My Mails" label as folder in BB10 and you can enable folder synchronization for it. Same applies for Outlook 2013.

I'm just quoting post #121 because it's the solution.

Originally Posted by howarmat

If i delete an email....i want it deleted and not archived. If I want it archived i move it to another folder myself. But that is just me....

100% agree. Delete is deleting to me.

The old saying is true and that you learn something new everyday. I didn't even know there was an "All Mail". I personally think it's stupid and just another way to data mine and keep information on everyone, but to each their own. If i press the delete button, i expect that email to be deleted and to not sit anywhere.

Going to delete my All Email folder now.

To each his own when it comes to archiving and deleting. I'm not here to judge.

The only reason Google "archives" your email instead of deleting it is so it is available to be run through new analysis processes that they may come up with in the future. If you find the archive useful, then that is good for you, enjoy your symbiotic relationship with Google. But don't expect everyone else to agree that such an "archive" is a good idea or should be supported.

Z10STL100-3/10.3.2.2252 SR 10.3.2.2168

Originally Posted by hoopitz

Personally, when I delete things from the HUB, it's not because I'm relegating it to trash, but because I want to clean up the HUB from emails that I won't need in the near future. That doesn't mean that I won't want to look it up months from now, and have it be there. As STV0726 said, if you DID want to delete your messages, there were simple solutions in changing a couple of settings in Gmail.

(Sorry No GMail to test, so I may be totally wrong, trying to understand)
Do you (and OP) mean you cannot set the delete action option to "Hub only ?".

Again, pardon my ignorance of Google stuff but since Gmail seems pretty much proprietary, isn't there an Android App you could run on BB10 that would handle it fine with its own logic and wording ?

And this is exactly why Google went with a non-standard system for handling your inbox: when it breaks on other platforms because they're using standard standards and not Google standards people sit around and argue about how bad the other platform is for not being able to handle GMail properly, not about how awful GMail is for not using proper standards.

Also there's an option in the Hub settings for "Delete in hub/Delete on server/Delete in hub and on server" which should cover what OP is on about? Clears up the hub and leaves the mail on the server? Or did they change that recently?

Originally Posted by Baconwich

And this is exactly why Google went with a non-standard system for handling your inbox: when it breaks on other platforms because they're using standard standards and not Google standards people sit around and argue about how bad the other platform is for not being able to handle GMail properly, not about how awful GMail is for not using proper standards.

Yeah Google has always wanted you to use their webmail or Gmail on mobile which last I checked can't even show emails as lists instead of threaded convos.

However Gmail is so massively popular that that it would be better for BlackBerry to support the quirks in some way if they can.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

Originally Posted by southlander

Yeah Google has always wanted you to use their webmail or Gmail on mobile which last I checked can't even show emails as lists instead of threaded convos.

However Gmail is so massively popular that that it would be better for BlackBerry to support the quirks in some way if they can.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

Well if they should accommodate Google just because they are popular then I want Windows Start menu on my BlackBerry, since Windows is so popular. Of course this is a ridiculous request, but it doesn't stop others from thinking they should have everything on everything whenever they want it.

BBClassic10.3.2.2639-799Radio

Originally Posted by diegonei

EDIT: Reading post #116 I get what you're saying. I too use the archive feature from Gmail. But that's the thing. Archive is archive. Archive is not delete.

Knowing this (and since this is a Gmail feature), the OP really should set the HUB to delete on the device only and do the archiving on a PC or manually. Is it perfect? No. But I really can't blame it on BlackBerry since this is not a email standard. If all solutions were using Archive/Labels, then yes. I'd be shouting for support.

But they aren't. So let's cut BlackBerry some slack on this one case.

Exactly. I don't agree that delete should act as archive like the OP. I'm just saying, that BlackBerry should add a clear "archive" action item is all. It wasn't right before, and it surely isn't right now either.

But yeah, the OP very easily can do the delete on device and just archive via the web interface, but that's now creating 2 actions out of 1. And it's currently what I find myself doing. Am I getting by doing it? Sure. But it's still annoying and creates a two step process out of what should be 1.

That's the thing though. Just cutting BlackBerry some slack isn't the solution. They are moving the HUB over to Android and every single Android email client has an "archive" option in it. You don't have to file it to a specific folder or something, it's just a simple "archive" email option. One click and boom, it's archived. So this isn't us just being picky and not cutting BlackBerry slack honestly, when they move the HUB over to Android, they are going to hear a lot more flack from people, so it's important to point this out to them. When the solution turns into a two step process (do one thing on your device and then do another thing on the web client for each email), that's kinda a pain and is definitely not productive. Especially when you have 3 gmail accounts, Work, Personal, and College - It gets really old, really fast.

Regardless, BlackBerry is moving their HUB and BB Experience Suite to Android. A Google product. So if BlackBerry thinks they can get away with an "archive" option on BB10, then okay. But if they think the same goes for when they move it over to Android... Then good luck. I'll take the minor inconvenience for the next couple months, I just hope that BlackBerry finally gets it right with the slider running Android. Their primary prospective buyer is going to be a Google user, one that very likely uses gmail. We are talking over 1.5 billion people that will very quickly be annoyed without having a dedicated "archive" button that simply removes the "inbox" label. Feel free to complain, argue, or say that we are "wrong". But when the time comes, the 1.5 billion gmail user community on Android will put BlackBerry in their place if they don't get it right out of the box.

P.S. Glad you enjoy Upstream! We'll try to start on-time for a change ;) haha

Originally Posted by Flip4Bytes

That's the thing though. Just cutting BlackBerry some slack isn't the solution. They are moving the HUB over to Android and every single Android email client has an "archive" option in it. You don't have to file it to a specific folder or something, it's just a simple "archive" email option. One click and boom, it's archived. So this isn't us just being picky and not cutting BlackBerry slack honestly, when they move the HUB over to Android, they are going to hear a lot more flack from people, so it's important to point this out to them.

The way archiving is achieved in the Hub is for the best organization. I like that I can click the file option and select where to put an email I wish to save. It works just like any other organizing tool, well ones that do it well. Having it save to the same spot with no option to change it, and then having to open all mail to select that email and save it to another folder at a later time is backwards and unproductive, perfect for Google and android fans, ridiculous for everyone else.


BBClassic10.3.2.2639-799Radio

Originally Posted by kgbbz10

The way archiving is achieved in the Hub is for the best organization. I like that I can click the file option and select where to put an email I wish to save. It works just like any other organizing tool, well ones that do it well. Having it save to the same spot with no option to change it, and then having to open all mail to select that email and save it to another folder at a later time is backwards and unproductive, perfect for Google and android fans, ridiculous for everyone else.


BBClassic10.3.2.2639-799Radio

Okay, that's fine. You can think whatever way you would like. But you do realize that BlackBerry is moving to Android and their experience suite to Android, right? The market will decide if the HUB on Android is a good solution or not, and BlackBerry is obviously ignoring gmail on BB10 (fine, they can do that if they want), but when they move to Android.. They can't let it slide anymore. Do you think it's just a coincidence that all of the major email clients currently on Android have a dedicated one-click "archive" button (which for a gmail account simply just removes the "inbox" label, and on other clients properly places it in the "archived" folder)? Let's name a few:

- CloudMagic (1m - 5m users)
- Mailbox by Dropbox (1m - 5m users)
- Email Type Mail (1m - 5m users)
- Inbox (10m - 50m users)
- Gmail (1b - 5b users) [which keep in mind now supports emails accounts other than just gmail accounts now]

So every single one of these clients have a designated "Archive" option that works with gmail perfectly. Yet you believe that BlackBerry will get away by just ignoring gmail users when moving to Android?

I'm sorry, but we are talking about more than a BILLION people, compared to the 10m currently on BB10. I think the majority of users have decided that a proper one-click "archive" option is needed. BlackBerry can ignore that, or not. Up to them. But if they ignore that, then the HUB won't be as successful as they need it to be when they make the jump to Android.

Feel free to say "perfect for Google and android fans, ridiculous for everyone else." because thinking like that is EXACTLY what caused BlackBerry to get into the situation they are currently in. They got too complacent with the way that they did things, what they thought was the *right* way to do things. Well the market decided and it has done nothing but hurt BlackBerry. They need to conform to the masses at-least a little bit in order to survive.

As it was before, it was a bug
I personally fought and opened bug reports on the BlackBerry bug tracker.
When I delete an email from the hub, I want it deleted, not archived.
If I want to archive, then I move it to a folder, that's how it works.
If you want to keep your emails forever, just hide them, you can set an option to Gmail to archive when deleted on imap

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