02-16-17 01:02 AM
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  1. zx9r170's Avatar
    What I am amazed at is a lot of the people that have called iPhone users "iSheep" are now following BlackBerry into the android camp with blinders on and seemingly without any remorse that the hands down best mobile operating system is being abandoned by its creator. What do we call those people that are now following BlackBerry like sheep into the world of Google? Why would any self respecting BB10 fan, if you will, be excited over the next BlackBerry phone when it's an android? I for one want to to have as little to do with anything Google has its hands in as possible. I don't even log into my YouTube account any more, and I've never had a Gmail account nor will I ever. This would be the same thing as Apple switching to android because the iPhone market share dropped below acceptable numbers and their "fans" accepted it, if not with their arms wide open, at least giving in as easily as a lot of BB10 users have. I doubt that any iPhone people would accept that scenario.

    Posted via CB10 from my unlocked Z30 on AT&T
    markmall and sorinv like this.
    01-25-17 08:50 AM
  2. conite's Avatar
    What I am amazed at is a lot of the people that have called iPhone users "iSheep" are now following BlackBerry into the android camp with blinders on and seemingly without any remorse that the hands down best mobile operating system is being abandoned by its creator. What do we call those people that are now following BlackBerry like sheep into the world of Google? Why would any self respecting BB10 fan, if you will, be excited over the next BlackBerry phone when it's an android? I for one want to to have as little to do with anything Google has its hands in as possible. I don't even log into my YouTube account any more, and I've never had a Gmail account nor will I ever. This would be the same thing as Apple switching to android because the iPhone market share dropped below acceptable numbers and their "fans" accepted it, if not with their arms wide open, at least giving in as easily as a lot of BB10 users have. I doubt that any iPhone people would accept that scenario.

    Posted via CB10 from my unlocked Z30 on AT&T
    What's the point of feeling remorse? It's just a phone after all. It's just a business decision.
    01-25-17 08:55 AM
  3. zx9r170's Avatar
    That's all you got out of my post? Seriously?
    I have used BlackBerry phones for many years for their security and productivity among other things. Many android apps require permissions to access areas of the phone that in most cases are neither warranted nor necessary for the app to run properly. Android on BlackBerry is no different, the permissions cannot be turned off because Google does not provide that choice. Of the many permissions required for android apps to run, the camera is the only one I've seen that can be denied. Contacts, files, device identifying information, (incl serial number and PIN), phone, (incl phone number and BlackBerry ID username) , location, are some of the permissions that apps have access to whether they are needed or not. Whether they actually access them isn't the issue, it's the fact that they CAN access them and you don't know if they are nor can you stop them if you did know that bothers me., I don't know if BlackBerry's security features on their android phones notify you that your personal information is being accessed by certain app. If it does though, what happens if you're notified that an app is accessing info you don't want it to access? The permission can't be denied so is that app now useless to you, or do you give in and let your personal info be accessed? Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but to some of us it does. Every single app I ever downloaded from BB World allowed me to deny permission to anything I didn't want that app to access, and they still worked fine.
    I stayed with BlackBerry after BB10 came out when I upgraded because their security and productivity were still there. The transition from BBOS7 to BB10 was so simple and effortless, a lot easier than much of the info I had read, but as an added benefit, BB10 is so easy to use that I am able to do things in much less time that it takes my daughters to do on their android or iPhone.
    My phone isn't used for work work, but I do use it at work for both personal use and communicating with my coworkers. When I need to read and/or reply to text messages or emails that I had to let sit because I was busy at the time and I couldn't answer my phone or my hands were greasy, I need to do it all as quickly as possible so that I can get back to work because my pay is based on repairing a car properly, not because I showed up and punched a time clock. It's not just a phone to me, it's the difference between using the correct tool for the job I'm performing and using something that wasn't made for that specific job but with a few changes or modifications will get it done, albeit slower, less efficiently, and maybe less safely.
    That's where much of the remorse comes in, giving up the advantages of the best mobile OS available to become slower, less productive, and less secure. If your phone is just a phone to you that's great for you, you can use anything you want. To many others like me it's an invaluable tool for getting things done in as little time as possible with as few mistakes as possible and doing it all securely. If all else fails, substitute remorse for care.
    Last edited by zx9r170; 01-25-17 at 10:50 AM.
    blackbp, markmall and DonHB like this.
    01-25-17 10:16 AM
  4. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    Our organization's understanding is that because Google is what the device is built around, that there is effectively no real way to stop data aggregation. If there is something that we're missing, I would love to hear more as we are currently exploring where to head once BB10 bites the dust. The consensus with the executive partners is that IOS is more private and they seem to "trust" Apple more than Google. That said, nobody is really keen on either platform because nobody REALLY knows what either company has access too. There's a lot of "just trust us, we're here to help." talk coming from these companies and that's red flag number one, number two is the lack of transparent disclosure, and three is no way to verify that anything they tell us or insinuate is actually true. Not that we get ANY of that from Blackberry, we don't. But their business model isn't built on data mining....its built on keeping data secure. Google, not so much.

    Would love to hear your thoughts though. I'm all for learning as much as possible because it deeply affects our company.

    Posted via CB10
    TL;DR I concur with your organization's understanding.

    Throughout my programming career I have had the opportunity to work with organizations which value security and privacy above convenience, enjoyment and even utility in some circumstances and through these organizations I have been covered by NDAs for both BlackBerry and Apple. What technology was chosen by those organizations depended a lot on what was accessible under the NDAs. Obviously I'm not going to disclose anything I've learned under NDA. But what I can say is that a lot of what a company espouses as their core values is reflected in the products they produce. But in order to know what those core values truly are, and not just what marketing wants you to believe takes a great deal of objectivity and critical analysis. This is more difficult if you don't have the privileges of an NDA but still possible. The very first application of objectivity and critical analysis should be applied to the question of how much security and privacy you really need. It is not surprising that many here on CB don't use BB10 because they believe they are getting superior security and privacy, but because they like the OS experience; nor that others believe that an up-to-date Android phone is secure and private enough. Most consumers don't need the level of security and privacy that some others do. But until you have actually done a threat risk assessment that is specific to a particular user, you can't decide if Product A is better than Product B. I have done TRAs that have resulted in recommending Android over other smart phone OSs because the clients did not need the protection afforded by BB10 but did need access to certain applications. However if data aggregation is a problem for your business you should be skeptical of Android as a solution.

    About the best I can offer is that your company is not alone in this. But the question of how much longer BlackBerry is going to be able to support companies with BB10 solutions is a valid concern. The very least your company should be doing is making BlackBerry aware of your position (to the degree you have one) on BB10, BlackBerry Android devices and what is going to happen to any licensed BlackBerry software you currently maintain if you move to another phone OS. They may be able to put together a solution that satisfies the executive partners.
    01-25-17 11:48 AM
  5. conite's Avatar
    Paid Google Apps for business does not data mine for advertising.

    "Will my data be scanned or used for advertising?

    Unlike Google’s consumer offerings, which may show ads, we do not collect, scan or use your G Suite data for advertising purposes and do not display ads in G Suite, Education, or Government core services. We use your data to provide the G Suite services, and for system support, such as spam filtering, virus detection, spell-checking, capacity planning, traffic routing, and the ability to search for emails and files within an individual account.

    Put simply, the data that companies, schools and government agencies put into our G Suite services does not belong to Google. Whether it’s corporate intellectual property, personal information or a homework assignment, Google does not own that data and Google does not sell that data to third parties."
    mbirth likes this.
    01-25-17 11:55 AM
  6. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    Paid Google Apps for business does not data mine for advertising.

    "Will my data be scanned or used for advertising?

    Unlike Google’s consumer offerings, which may show ads, we do not collect, scan or use your G Suite data for advertising purposes and do not display ads in G Suite, Education, or Government core services. We use your data to provide the G Suite services, and for system support, such as spam filtering, virus detection, spell-checking, capacity planning, traffic routing, and the ability to search for emails and files within an individual account.

    Put simply, the data that companies, schools and government agencies put into our G Suite services does not belong to Google. Whether it’s corporate intellectual property, personal information or a homework assignment, Google does not own that data and Google does not sell that data to third parties."
    Which is why I continue to use my IEEE account which is hosted on Google. But I also don't (and would not even when it was hosted on an IEEE owned server) share private corporate or personal data on that system. The TRA for IEEE as an organization is satisfied by Google Apps for business. On the other hand none of the organizations I perform paid services for fall into the same bin. For them the TRA precludes the use of Google Apps for business.

    Data mining is one problem if you are using a certain class of Google products. Using their business class products may eliminate that as a concern, but there are still lots of others that may or may not be important for any given organization.
    01-25-17 02:07 PM
  7. markmall's Avatar
    That MIGHT be true, but security isn't privacy, though the terms are often used interchangeably. There is still a segment of the market that requires BOTH.....it might be a very small segment, but it does exist, and without bb10, there's not an existing OS (that I'm aware of) that can fill that hole. Since many of those users are "mission critical" , eventually someone will have rise to fill the void......most likely at a very increased device cost. Boeing perhaps? Frankly, there's probably many who would be happy to pay handsomely for such a device.

    If you offered a device with an extremely high level of business productivity, privacy/security, a robust app eco system and top notch, no-lag, get 'er done hardware mixed with just a dash of sex appeal, I know our organization would gladly pay $1500 per device. We're basically paying that now because we often need multiple devices in order to do what we need to do. I think there's a niche market out there, but instead of trying to bring costs down and retro fit a consumer device for business, I'd rather see a true enterprise/commercial grade device released and have them charge appropriately for it. Heck, you might even sell a few more just BECAUSE it's expensive.

    Posted via CB10
    If only there were a company with a secure OS that had a slew of patents to use to build mobile devices.

    Posted via CB10
    01-25-17 03:31 PM
  8. Trouveur's Avatar
    Since Android 6, all permissions can be denied individually for a specific app.

    Posted via CB10
    mbirth likes this.
    01-25-17 04:55 PM
  9. keliew's Avatar
    Since Android 6, all permissions can be denied individually for a specific app.

    Posted via CB10
    Can't deny startup permission.

    BlackBerry Passport via CB10
    01-25-17 05:02 PM
  10. curves2000's Avatar
    Can't deny startup permission.

    BlackBerry Passport via CB10


    What do you mean by startup permission? Does this mean as soon as I download an app that the auto permission gives the app developer access? Only when I opt out does it stop?

    Just wondering. Thanks

    Posted via CB10
    01-26-17 12:27 AM
  11. sorinv's Avatar
    What's the point of feeling remorse? It's just a phone after all. It's just a business decision.
    It's not a phone. It's all your data, everything you do and think...that gets hoovered by Google. Is that worth a free app or a million free apps?

    It depends how you value your data, what you think, what you produce and what can be gathered and monetized from what you think.
    Most people on android put a zero value on all of the above.

    Posted via CB10
    Superdupont 2_0 likes this.
    01-26-17 01:30 AM
  12. markmall's Avatar
    It's not a phone. It's all your data, everything you do and think...that gets hoovered by Google. Is that worth a free app or a million free apps?

    It depends how you value your data, what you think, what you produce and what can be gathered and monetized from what you think.
    Most people on android put a zero value on all of the above.

    Posted via CB10
    I really cringe when I think about how much Google knows about me already if I stopped using Google anything. Who knows what they might do with all this data during the rest of our lives. Or someone they give the data to.
    01-26-17 02:48 AM
  13. Superdupont 2_0's Avatar
    I really cringe when I think about how much Google knows about me already if I stopped using Google anything. Who knows what they might do with all this data during the rest of our lives. Or someone they give the data to.
    The funny thing is, even if they don't have your data, they maybe have already enough data from others.
    That could have negative effects in real life, when we negotiate with our bank for a loan or when we sign up for any form of insurance (quite old examples, I know).
    01-26-17 05:03 AM
  14. johnny_bravo72's Avatar
    Google is Skynet!
    The sky is falling!
    Repent, the end is near!
    We're doomed!!


    ...NOT!
    Ajith Raveendran likes this.
    01-26-17 05:23 AM
  15. mbirth's Avatar
    Can't deny startup permission.
    Then just don't download whatever you don't want to start.
    01-26-17 06:55 AM
  16. Superdupont 2_0's Avatar
    [...]
    It depends how you value your data, what you think, what you produce and what can be gathered and monetized from what you think.
    Most people on android put a zero value on all of the above.
    Coincidentally POTUS seems to continue using his Android phone:
    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...android-phone/

    I recommend reading the comments section on Ars.
    01-26-17 07:34 AM
  17. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    If only there were a company, WITH CASH, with a secure OS that had a slew of patents to use to build mobile devices.

    Posted via CB10
    Fixed...
    01-26-17 08:13 AM
  18. Old_Mil's Avatar
    Google is Skynet!
    The sky is falling!
    Repent, the end is near!
    We're doomed!!


    ...NOT!
    ...Yet.
    markmall and Ajith Raveendran like this.
    01-26-17 08:53 AM
  19. markmall's Avatar
    ...Yet.
    Why should we just presume that Google and whatever form it takes in the next 10, 25, or 50 years will follow its hilarious "Do no evil" motto?

    What if the U.S. had a fascist regime take over like in many other countries in the world? Like the Nazis taking over Germany... Imagine what they could do by using Google's data. The government already uses smartphone data for prosecutions.
    01-26-17 12:45 PM
  20. conite's Avatar
    Why should we just presume that Google and whatever form it takes in the next 10, 25, or 50 years will follow its hilarious "Do not evil" motto?

    What if the U.S. had a fascist regime take over like in many other countries in the world? Like the Nazis taking over Germany... Imagine what they could do by using Google's data. The government already uses smartphone data for prosecutions.
    Seriously, if the US became some kind of evil rogue Empire then we would have much more serious things to worry about.
    01-26-17 12:48 PM
  21. markmall's Avatar
    One could argue that the U.S. is more the exception than the rule. There have been many, many totalitarian regimes all over the world. Nazi Germany is just the most obvious example in the Western world. How many governments respect personal privacy to the same extent as in the U.S.?

    Google is so frightening because it takes so much personal data and data that we might not share with our own intimates. We don't even know how much data it has.
    01-26-17 12:54 PM
  22. mbirth's Avatar
    Why should we just presume that Google and whatever form it takes in the next 10, 25, or 50 years will follow its hilarious "Do no evil" motto?
    Android is not Google. Android is Open-source, so BB could continue developing and releasing their variant of Android.


    What if the U.S. had a fascist regime take over like in many other countries in the world? Like the Nazis taking over Germany... Imagine what they could do by using Google's data. The government already uses smartphone data for prosecutions.
    You can run your phone without logging in to a Google account. You can disable all Google apps on your phone. Also AFAIR, you get asked a few questions about sharing your data when you first setup an Android phone. So if you're afraid to share your data, just don't do it.
    01-26-17 01:11 PM
  23. markmall's Avatar
    Android is not Google. Android is Open-source, so BB could continue developing and releasing their variant of Android.
    Are you suggesting that there is something wrong with the current version in terms of Big Brother-style data collection?

    I've said it before, but the U.S. government and the EU need to start regulating Google's data collection. It has a monopoly or near monopoly. People don't know what they are giving up. During better times, the U.S. government would act. Maybe the next admin will.
    01-26-17 01:31 PM
  24. mbirth's Avatar
    Are you suggesting that there is something wrong with the current version in terms of Big Brother-style data collection?
    Haha, no, I only said that if Google should try to do bad things with Android, there are lots of people with copies of the (unaltered) source code who can provide "good" firmwares.

    And as far as I know, Google is one of the few companies who actually tell you what data they collect and let you opt-out. Let's just remember that thing with Apple where people stumbled upon a file on their phones which contained the locations they've been to in the last months …
    blackmass likes this.
    01-26-17 01:54 PM
  25. markmall's Avatar
    Haha, no, I only said that if Google should try to do bad things with Android, there are lots of people with copies of the (unaltered) source code who can provide "good" firmwares.

    And as far as I know, Google is one of the few companies who actually tell you what data they collect and let you opt-out. Let's just remember that thing with Apple where people stumbled upon a file on their phones which contained the locations they've been to in the last months …
    Just because Apple is no angel doesn't change anything the Google. Also, hacks on Google's software in the future won't protect us from it has and will collect and save on its servers.

    Posted via CB10
    01-26-17 02:53 PM
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