02-16-17 12:02 AM
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tools
  1. Fret Madden's Avatar
    Yes, but the law does not give them a free hand to data-mine me without giving me an option to pay in cash.
    The law in Canada doesn't allow them to invade my privacy by tracking my clicks, yet governments do not enforce the law on them. I don't have a Google account, I have never used android, I don't do Google search, yet they monitor pretty much all pages on the internet.
    The governments are on their payroll. They don't pay proper taxes.
    They bully everyone into being datamined.


    Posted via CB10
    It does, and because users are given a choice to shut it off, they're in the clear.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    02-11-17 11:04 PM
  2. Fret Madden's Avatar
    Try googling anti-trust law and read up on it.

    Posted via CB10
    Again, there's other android app stores. Nobody is required to use Google Play Store. Any antitrust case falls apart right there.
    02-11-17 11:13 PM
  3. markmall's Avatar
    Try googling the success rate of those who take legal action against Google for anti-trust. It doesn't pass the threshold.
    How about the Justice Department? Has it ever gone after Google on anti-trust grounds? No. I am not sure what civil lawsuits you are talking about.

    Back when MSFT was the big tech bully, the Justice Department went after it and Microsoft was declared a monopoly at the trial court level. Eventually, the case settled but it reflects that the federal government can take on companies like Google. Who else would ever do it?

    Posted via CB10
    02-11-17 11:16 PM
  4. Fret Madden's Avatar
    What about app permission?! What about datamining adroid and most webpages on the internet?

    Posted via CB10
    What about them? Shut off permissions you don't want to be used, check or uncheck the settings you want or don't want and be done with it.
    BigBadWulf and Ronindan like this.
    02-11-17 11:17 PM
  5. Fret Madden's Avatar
    How about the Justice Department? Has it ever gone after Google on anti-trust grounds? No. I am not sure what civil lawsuits you are talking about.

    Back when MSFT was the big tech bully, the Justice Department went after it and Microsoft was declared a monopoly at the trial court level. Eventually, the case settled but it reflects that the federal government can take on companies like Google. Who else would ever do it?

    Posted via CB10
    Because they can't. There's no case.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    02-11-17 11:18 PM
  6. markmall's Avatar
    Again, there's other android app stores. Nobody is required to use Google Play Store. Any antitrust case falls apart right there.
    I don't agree. The point is that people have to use Android apps and Google uses this to control consumers and profit. Look at the situation BB10 users are in. The best out is the existence of iOS as an alternative but I don't think one competitor is a complete defense.

    Posted via CB10
    02-11-17 11:19 PM
  7. Fret Madden's Avatar
    I don't agree. The point is that people have to use Android apps and Google uses this to control consumers and profit. Look at the situation BB10 users are in. The best out is the existence of iOS as an alternative but I don't think one competitor is a complete defense.

    Posted via CB10
    There's Android, and there's Google's Android. Since there's a choice, there's no case.
    02-11-17 11:25 PM
  8. conite's Avatar
    How about the Justice Department? Has it ever gone after Google on anti-trust grounds? No. I am not sure what civil lawsuits you are talking about.

    Back when MSFT was the big tech bully, the Justice Department went after it and Microsoft was declared a monopoly at the trial court level. Eventually, the case settled but it reflects that the federal government can take on companies like Google. Who else would ever do it?

    Posted via CB10
    You are claiming Google is running afoul of anti-trust law. The fact is, until they are found guilty of such, you are just blowing smoke.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    02-11-17 11:25 PM
  9. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    I don't agree. The point is that people have to use Android apps and Google uses this to control consumers and profit. Look at the situation BB10 users are in. The best out is the existence of iOS as an alternative but I don't think one competitor is a complete defense.

    Posted via CB10
    Unless it's required by work, how is anyone forced to use an app, any app?

    What number of competitors defines competition?
    Fret Madden likes this.
    02-12-17 12:07 AM
  10. markmall's Avatar
    Because they can't. There's no case.
    Based on what? How much anti-trust law experience do you have?
    02-12-17 02:23 AM
  11. markmall's Avatar
    Unless it's required by work, how is anyone forced to use an app, any app?

    What number of competitors defines competition?
    There is a whole body of law on this. Fret seems to know all about anti-trust law, so maybe he can tell us.
    02-12-17 02:24 AM
  12. Fret Madden's Avatar
    Based on what? How much anti-trust law experience do you have?
    What part of Google owns their store are you not following? It's theirs. They own it it. They curate it. They maintain it. Android doesn't come with it, they added it. The other members of the OHA add their own if they choose, like Amazon has, but if they want to use something (the Google Play Store) that is owned by another company (Google) then the company that owns it gets to set the rules. This is very different from what Microsoft did with Windows back when they had their proceedings, there was no base Windows that other companies could morph to their own needs.
    BigBadWulf and Ronindan like this.
    02-12-17 02:59 AM
  13. Fret Madden's Avatar
    There is a whole body of law on this. Fret seems to know all about anti-trust law, so maybe he can tell us.
    I cheat. My sister in law is a contracts attorney and one of my best friends is a patent lawyer.
    Tre Lawrence and BigBadWulf like this.
    02-12-17 03:05 AM
  14. johnsliderbb's Avatar
    Again, there's other android app stores. Nobody is required to use Google Play Store. Any antitrust case falls apart right there.
    Which other app store could give me the Blackberry Updates for my Priv? (without getting into nerd mode)

    So indeed I'm not required to let my phone have (security) updates. Just like I'm not required to have my faulty Toyota airbag replaced, or eg sat-nav glitches fixed. Normal user behaviour and right is to have problems fixed. And sellers/mfr here (EU) have an obligation to deliver non-faulty products or must deliver fixes (for x amount of time).

    Now my car I take to the Toyota garage for fixes. My Classic went to Blackberry with its Blackberry World. The Priv I can only get fixed via Google's Playstore though. Blackberry's DTEK even advises me against using 3rd party "playstores" for safety reasons.

    So why didnt BB just extend its BB World to service the new Android platform phones? Why not just BB offers service via the Google Playstore only?

    Does Google give companies an incentive somehow to ONLY use Google's Playstore for servicing and "forbid" BB World kind of services?

    If the latter is true anti-trust is there, even if a requirement is created via a party in between.

    However even if just an incentive exists still at least in EU I could a case being seen made.

    And remember DTEK discouraging using something else than Google's Playstore.

    So in US by definition you would be off the hook? Interesting.
    02-12-17 03:50 AM
  15. Fret Madden's Avatar
    Which other app store could give me the Blackberry Updates for my Priv? (without getting into nerd mode)

    So indeed I'm not required to let my phone have (security) updates. Just like I'm not required to have my faulty Toyota airbag replaced, or eg sat-nav glitches fixed. Normal user behaviour and right is to have problems fixed. And sellers/mfr here (EU) have an obligation to deliver non-faulty products or must deliver fixes (for x amount of time).

    Now my car I take to the Toyota garage for fixes. My Classic went to Blackberry with its Blackberry World. The Priv I can only get fixed via Google's Playstore though. Blackberry's DTEK even advises me against using 3rd party "playstores" for safety reasons.

    So why didnt BB just extend its BB World to service the new Android platform phones? Why not just BB offers service via the Google Playstore only?

    Does Google give companies an incentive somehow to ONLY use Google's Playstore for servicing and "forbid" BB World kind of services?

    If the latter is true anti-trust is there, even if a requirement is created via a party in between.

    However even if just an incentive exists still at least in EU I could a case being seen made.

    And remember DTEK discouraging using something else than Google's Playstore.

    So in US by definition you would be off the hook? Interesting.
    BlackBerry isn't required to use Google's Android. They could have developed their own. But since they're using Google's Android, they're using Google's app store. BlackBerry World applications are incompatible because that's a different platform - if your Toyota has an engine problem you're not going to be sticking a Caterpillar diesel part in it.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    02-12-17 03:59 AM
  16. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    I cheat. My sister in law is a contracts attorney and one of my best friends is a patent lawyer.
    Boom.
    02-12-17 04:00 AM
  17. johnsliderbb's Avatar
    Just making another analogy. When I drive my Toyota into the garage. The mechanic spots its a Camry with a 2 liter 16 valve engine. This give him enough information to make the fix.

    He does not need to know I'm Mr JohnsliderBB. Nor does he need to know my email address.

    So why Google Playstore should know anything more a phone with Marshmellow version xyz wants to download something? Even knowing it is a Priv isn't relevant in general (except may be for some BB apps). So no technical reason to demand an account (I'm ignoring paid apps in this reasoning off course)

    My Sunday morning 2 cents.
    02-12-17 04:04 AM
  18. Fret Madden's Avatar
    Just making another analogy. When I drive my Toyota into the garage. The mechanic spots its a Camry with a 2 liter 16 valve engine. This give him enough information to make the fix.

    He does not need to know I'm Mr JohnsliderBB. Nor does he need to know my email address.

    So why Google Playstore should know anything more a phone with Marshmellow version xyz wants to download something? Even knowing it is a Priv isn't relevant in general (except may be for some BB apps). So no technical reason to demand an account (I'm ignoring paid apps in this reasoning off course)

    My Sunday morning 2 cents.
    They demand an account so they can license their apps as well as the rest of the apps in their store, plus provide protections users don't get from other stores such as backups and remote tracking if you lose your device, as well as further their business model by providing things you're likely to be interested in. Nobody needs to provide real information if they don't want to, nor even use their store. But I recommend against using outside vendors, that's where you're more likely to find shady software.
    02-12-17 04:31 AM
  19. blackbp's Avatar
    There is no long future for BlackBerry 10 os and there is no future at all for your privacy! There is a direction and there are unwitting actors.

    Posted via CB10
    02-12-17 04:38 AM
  20. johnsliderbb's Avatar
    BlackBerry isn't required to use Google's Android. They could have developed their own. But since they're using Google's Android, they're using Google's app store. BlackBerry World applications are incompatible because that's a different platform - if your Toyota has an engine problem you're not going to be sticking a Caterpillar diesel part in it.
    Just to make the analogy.

    The Phone is Blackberry or Toyota in the car case. The servicer is Google Play store or Catterpillar in the car example.

    Now in real life, if the Catterpillar shop orders the right parts and its mechanics are not too clumsy they could service my Toyota properly Just like the Play Store actually does. So all fine here.

    I could use Catterpillar or OEM Toyota, or Kwik-fit, or whatever. I'm not stuck to one option though.

    In the Blackberry phone world I'm stuck to the one designated party: Google Play. The OEM BlackBerry is even not available to do it, nor does it provide other parties with the options to service.

    Seems we are getting very close to being required to use Google Playstore as the only way to ensure the phone runs properly.

    No Playstore, no (security) updates, no fixed air-bag in the car example.

    Requirement for Play Store in reality is there.

    Anyway, sit back and relax and see whether some German will bring this to court.



    -------------------------------------



    What made Blackberry not to develop their own updating service?!? Privacy and Security is what the Priv should give so enforcing Google Playstore is just a contradiction in terminus.

    Cost can't be it, as the update work in itself must be done anyway whether it comes via Play or BB World or whatever.

    BB World is hosted already for legacy OS and BB 10, adding an Android portal is not going to determine whether the BB year result is a profit or a loss I kinda could imagine



    _______________________

    Oh, just to note the actually updating via Play Store works very well. No complaints here.

    The workaround of creating an dedicated phone email account obviously works. It still is a workaround though.

    Only this ongoing returning data demands for data Playstore does not need and should not need turn me off which is a seperate topic off course.

    Last edited by johnsliderbb; 02-12-17 at 06:49 AM.
    02-12-17 04:57 AM
  21. kvndoom's Avatar
    I don't agree. The point is that people have to use Android apps and Google uses this to control consumers and profit. Look at the situation BB10 users are in. The best out is the existence of iOS as an alternative but I don't think one competitor is a complete defense.

    Posted via CB10
    GREAT SCOTT! People have to use Android apps on their Android phones? IOS apps on their IOS phones! Blackberry apps on their Blackberry phones! Windows compatible software on Windows! Mac software on Macs!

    Inconceivable! Trump will have none of this!
    02-12-17 05:48 AM
  22. kvndoom's Avatar
    Just making another analogy. When I drive my Toyota into the garage. The mechanic spots its a Camry with a 2 liter 16 valve engine. This give him enough information to make the fix.

    He does not need to know I'm Mr JohnsliderBB. Nor does he need to know my email address.

    So why Google Playstore should know anything more a phone with Marshmellow version xyz wants to download something? Even knowing it is a Priv isn't relevant in general (except may be for some BB apps). So no technical reason to demand an account (I'm ignoring paid apps in this reasoning off course)

    My Sunday morning 2 cents.
    Unless you're using a shadetree mechanic, you will not drop off a car and get it serviced without them getting your name, address, and phone number.
    02-12-17 05:56 AM
  23. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Just to make the analogy.

    The Phone is Blackberry or Toyota in the car case. The servicer is Google Play store or Catterpillar in the car example.

    Now in real life, if the Catterpillar shop orders the right parts and its mechanics are not too clumsy they could service my Toyota properly Just like the Play Store actually does. So all fine here.

    I could use Catterpillar or OEM Toyota, or Kwik-fit, or whatever. I'm not stuck to one option though.

    In the Blackberry phone world I'm stuck to the one designated party: Google Play. The OEM BlackBerry is even not available to do it, nor does it provide other parties with the options to service.

    Seems we are getting very close to being required to use Google Playstore as the only way to ensure the phone runs properly.

    No Playstore, no (security) updates, no fixed air-bag in the car example.

    Requirement for Play Store in reality is there.

    Anyway, sit back and relax and see whether some German will bring this to court.



    -------------------------------------



    What made Blackberry not to develop their own updating service?!? Privacy and Security is what the Priv should give so enforcing Google Playstore is just a contradiction in terminus.

    Cost can't be it, as the update work in itself must be done anyway whether it comes via Play or BB World or whatever.

    BB World is hosted already for legacy OS and BB 10, adding an Android portal is not going to determine whether the BB year result is a profit or a loss I kinda could imagine



    _______________________

    Oh, just to note the actually updating via Play Store works very well. No complaints here.

    The workaround of creating an dedicated phone email account obviously works. It still is a workaround though.

    Only this ongoing returning data demands for data Playstore does not need and should not need turn me off which is a seperate topic off course.

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2ae9d2ffcd.jpg
    Now you're getting into my area of expertise. While many parts for many cars are made by several manufacturers, almost always there's a difference of quality going OEM. There are a lot of instances though, where the part is dealer only, even with older, quite popular vehicles. Just like a phone's OS, or hardware.

    No one is force to buy X, Y or Z, or any at all, but once you make a choice to buy, you committed yourself to them. Find it a burden, then sell and move on.
    Ronindan and Fret Madden like this.
    02-12-17 07:31 AM
  24. Ronindan's Avatar
    I guess some BB10 fans forget when Palm Pre users had to use iTunes to sync their songs on their devices since Palm was not able to (Confirmed: iTunes 8.2.1 Breaks Pre Syncing) It was amusing for a while but eventually blows up to Palm face since they can't even develop their music syncing software.

    And the funny thing is that Palm fans were saying the same thing - "What apple is doing is illegal", "Apple is being a**** for not letting Palm do this", "Apple is being uncompetitive for this" or "iTunes is crap, why use it ", while overlooking the fact that Palm can't even make a simple music syncing app. They also don't acknowledge that iTunes was made by Apple to work with three platforms: Mac OS, Windows, IOS and not WebOS. The same goes Google Play Store/Services, it is designed to work with OHA complainant Android devices. And more importantly the developers that have their apps in the Play Store expect that their customers are using OHA complainant Android devices. Which is why this (BB10) subform have a number of threads about apps from the Google Play Store not working properly with their BB10 devices.

    In the end of the day, it is BB's responsibility to create a viable app ecosystem for their platform (BB10) and not Google, Apple, Windows, Amazon or any other tech company. BB is piggybacking on Google app ecosystem and Google has no legal or even ethical obligation to help. Similar to RIM who had no legal or ethical obligation to provide access to BES, BIS, BBM services to WP and Symbian (users/platform) at their heyday.
    Last edited by Ronindan; 02-12-17 at 08:43 AM.
    02-12-17 08:27 AM
  25. keliew's Avatar
    Just to continue with the car analogy, once you have the chassis number, you can find out a lot about the car, the buyers and other details, even the price sold if it's available. Albeit there are access rights to these information.

    BlackBerry Passport via CB10
    BigBadWulf and StephanieMaks like this.
    02-12-17 08:38 AM
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