01-25-18 11:29 PM
43 12
tools
  1. meltbox360's Avatar
    So I was reading an an and tech article (AnandTech | A Closer Look at Android RunTime (ART) in Android L) on ART in android L. Does anyone know how ART stacks up against what BlackBerry is building? I'd hope that BlackBerry built a from scratch VM and didn't go copying dalvik. If they did copy Dalvik we could end up with an inferior experience even if they entirely flesh out the runtime.

    Wouldn't it be cool if BlackBerry provided us this kind of technical insight into the stuff they're working on? I think so, wish they would.

    Posted via CB10
    DreadPirateRegan likes this.
    07-06-14 11:00 AM
  2. fsecure's Avatar
    It's a fine line between informing the technical community of upcoming plans and keeping proprietary secrets to give BlackBerry a competitive edge.

    Remember, once you've squeezed all the toothpaste out of the tube it's really hard to put it back in.

    Posted via CB10
    Bilaal likes this.
    07-06-14 11:07 AM
  3. app_Developer's Avatar
    The Android runtime in BB10 includes the Dalvik runtime and many other open source Android components.

    If the license on ART allows it, BB could adopt ART as well.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    07-06-14 11:15 AM
  4. meltbox360's Avatar
    It's a fine line between informing the technical community of upcoming plans and keeping proprietary secrets to give BlackBerry a competitive edge.

    Remember, once you've squeezed all the toothpaste out of the tube it's really hard to put it back in.

    Posted via CB10
    I doubt Google will be taking much from BlackBerry in terms of an android runtime. The fact is they'll probably be ahead in this regard. What Google published is hardly revealing but it is very interesting and encouraging for fans of the operating system or Google itself.

    Posted via CB10
    07-06-14 12:24 PM
  5. vaioman's Avatar
    I doubt Google will be taking much from BlackBerry in terms of an android runtime. The fact is they'll probably be ahead in this regard. What Google published is hardly revealing but it is very interesting and encouraging for fans of the operating system or Google itself.

    Posted via CB10
    BlackBerry have the one thing that Google don't. BlackBerry 10 can be viewed as a secure android environment. I'm sure Google would be more than interested in the secrets to how BlackBerry have accomplished what they have.

    Posted via CB10
    07-06-14 12:44 PM
  6. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    BlackBerry have the one thing that Google don't. BlackBerry 10 can be viewed as a secure android environment. I'm sure Google would be more than interested in the secrets to how BlackBerry have accomplished what they have.

    Posted via CB10
    It's no secret. They started with a secure OS, improved that security, then run Android on top of that secure kernel. Google is a security conscious organisation, but bringing the Linux kernel security to the level of other mobile OSs would be a herculean task.

    Posted via CB10
    07-06-14 02:34 PM
  7. Bilaal's Avatar
    Remember, once you've squeezed all the toothpaste out of the tube it's really hard to put it back in.
    Love this
    07-06-14 02:38 PM
  8. meltbox360's Avatar
    It's no secret. They started with a secure OS, improved that security, then run Android on top of that secure kernel. Google is a security conscious organisation, but bringing the Linux kernel security to the level of other mobile OSs would be a herculean task.

    Posted via CB10
    I would say the Linux kernel is actually quite secure itself. If anything the security issues with android generally reside at a higher level. I'd hope the kernel was secure considering the number of servers it's utilized on o.o

    Posted via CB10
    07-09-14 04:04 AM
  9. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    I would say the Linux kernel is actually quite secure itself. If anything the security issues with android generally reside at a higher level. I'd hope the kernel was secure considering the number of servers it's utilized on o.o

    Posted via CB10
    Attacks have been moving up from the kernel and privilege escalation because the payoff is for most malware is the user data. Most of that can be got at by simply convincing the user to let you have it. Hoping the Linux kernel is secure because of the number of servers it runs on is like hoping the Windows kernel is secure because of the number of desktops it runs on. A good acid test for Linux kernel security is how much stuff breaks when SELinux is enabled.

    Not knowing about vulnerabilities is not the same as there not being any.
    07-09-14 06:26 AM
  10. meltbox360's Avatar
    Attacks have been moving up from the kernel and privilege escalation because the payoff is for most malware is the user data. Most of that can be got at by simply convincing the user to let you have it. Hoping the Linux kernel is secure because of the number of servers it runs on is like hoping the Windows kernel is secure because of the number of desktops it runs on. A good acid test for Linux kernel security is how much stuff breaks when SELinux is enabled.

    Not knowing about vulnerabilities is not the same as there not being any.
    My point was more of I hope they have patched a ton of the vulnerabilities by now considering the amount of exploitation it's exposed to.

    I'm sure it has vulnerabilities. But I'm also sure QNX has vulnerabilities. Perhaps less, but it must.

    I don't know. Never written an exploit and wouldn't know where to start so I can't comment on their respective exploitability.

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 06:59 AM
  11. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    My point was more of I hope they have patched a ton of the vulnerabilities by now considering the amount of exploitation it's exposed to.

    I'm sure it has vulnerabilities. But I'm also sure QNX has vulnerabilities. Perhaps less, but it must.

    I don't know. Never written an exploit and wouldn't know where to start so I can't comment on their respective exploitability.

    Posted via CB10
    Have a look at "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric S Raymond. It is an essay from 1997 comparing, essentially, closed source and open source development. But while reading bear in mind all the failures of the Bazaar to perform as expected. The idea was that open source code could be better (and more secure) because it is open to the world to examine, critique and improve. But as we have seen more and more in recent months this promise was not realized. Codes, pressed for time, made mistakes and no one (that we know of) looked at the code and found them for decades.

    It is always easier to build security in from the beginning. But it takes the discipline of an organization that is not willing to put security behind anything else. Now look around at the various corporations and open source projects and see which ones fit that description.
    07-10-14 09:21 AM
  12. itzJustMeh's Avatar
    ART sounds great, but my friends (nexus 4 or 5) all stopped using it because it's unstable and sometimes laggy. But once fixed (maybe it already is in L) it should run faster. Even on BB10 (and yes, BB10 has no issues getting it)
    07-10-14 09:35 AM
  13. meltbox360's Avatar
    Have a look at "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric S Raymond. It is an essay from 1997 comparing, essentially, closed source and open source development. But while reading bear in mind all the failures of the Bazaar to perform as expected. The idea was that open source code could be better (and more secure) because it is open to the world to examine, critique and improve. But as we have seen more and more in recent months this promise was not realized. Codes, pressed for time, made mistakes and no one (that we know of) looked at the code and found them for decades.

    It is always easier to build security in from the beginning. But it takes the discipline of an organization that is not willing to put security behind anything else. Now look around at the various corporations and open source projects and see which ones fit that description.
    You have made me wonder a bit. I mean the essay entirely contradicts what you are saying. However it does seem a competent closed source system would be better than open source.

    On the other hand I think the best argument for open source is broken is Linux. Run it for a year and see how many times the OS just decides to explode if you plan in updating software. It's quite often. Which negates the open source security advantage.

    That's more of a Linux oss dev culture thing though where they just change 6billion things every update and screw compatibility with stuff. -see closed source Linux drivers-

    Posted via CB10
    07-12-14 08:50 AM
  14. meltbox360's Avatar
    ART sounds great, but my friends (nexus 4 or 5) all stopped using it because it's unstable and sometimes laggy. But once fixed (maybe it already is in L) it should run faster. Even on BB10 (and yes, BB10 has no issues getting it)
    It was available before? Android L seems to be the release version for it. I think Dalvik was taken out all together in L. Well at least BlackBerry can draw inspiration from the code to improve their own.

    Posted via CB10
    07-12-14 08:51 AM
  15. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    You have made me wonder a bit. I mean the essay entirely contradicts what you are saying. However it does seem a competent closed source system would be better than open source.

    On the other hand I think the best argument for open source is broken is Linux. Run it for a year and see how many times the OS just decides to explode if you plan in updating software. It's quite often. Which negates the open source security advantage.

    That's more of a Linux oss dev culture thing though where they just change 6billion things every update and screw compatibility with stuff. -see closed source Linux drivers-

    Posted via CB10
    The essay is really an optimistic look at what Open Source could do. When it was published I counted myself firmly in the FOSS camp and used that essay as support. Now nearly a decade later, after living through many occurrences of what you described I've changed sides. Not that I think the essay is wrong. It is just that people have not lived up to their potential. And meanwhile, some closed source shops feeling the pressure have done some outstanding work.

    Posted via CB10
    07-12-14 12:31 PM
  16. Ment's Avatar
    It was available before? Android L seems to be the release version for it. I think Dalvik was taken out all together in L. Well at least BlackBerry can draw inspiration from the code to improve their own.

    Posted via CB10
    It was a developer option on the Nexus 5 when it was released along with KitKat. Was pretty buggy then but on Android L preview its pretty much done, very few Android apps have problem with ART now.
    app_Developer likes this.
    07-12-14 05:08 PM
  17. BCITMike's Avatar
    Really smart people like good salaries. It's their job to make good software.

    Open source is like volunteer workers, where the coder may not be the most experienced, best fit nor the time for dedicated work.

    But, some really, really good coders still contribute to open source, because they are that good.

    There are also sh1t coders being paid a small fortune, so it goes both ways.

    Posted via CB10
    07-12-14 05:29 PM
  18. app_Developer's Avatar
    Really smart people like good salaries. It's their job to make good software.

    Open source is like volunteer workers, where the coder may not be the most experienced, best fit nor the time for dedicated work.

    But, some really, really good coders still contribute to open source, because they are that good.

    There are also sh1t coders being paid a small fortune, so it goes both ways.

    Posted via CB10
    There are a lot of developers at a lot of companies who are paid a lot of money to contribute to the big open source projects.

    Look at the commiter list for Linux. Or for that matter, how many Android developers do you think are volunteers?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    07-12-14 05:45 PM
  19. meltbox360's Avatar
    There are a lot of developers at a lot of companies who are paid a lot of money to contribute to the big open source projects.

    Look at the commiter list for Linux. Or for that matter, how many Android developers do you think are volunteers?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    The guys on XDA mostly haha. But I see your point. I think the problem is the projects are overseen and driven by people who while brilliant have seemed to lack the ability to direct the project well. You can have the best coders in the world helping some guy build software, but if that guy insists in a model that makes it hard to help him... well...

    You can only get so far. If Linux would develop some stable interface drivers could be built on and not be a science project for people who can't get over the fact that open source isn't the end all be all then maybe we would see more average Joe users on Linux.

    Posted via CB10
    07-12-14 07:25 PM
  20. app_Developer's Avatar
    The guys on XDA mostly haha. But I see your point. I think the problem is the projects are overseen and driven by people who while brilliant have seemed to lack the ability to direct the project well. You can have the best coders in the world helping some guy build software, but if that guy insists in a model that makes it hard to help him... well...

    You can only get so far. If Linux would develop some stable interface drivers could be built on and not be a science project for people who can't get over the fact that open source isn't the end all be all then maybe we would see more average Joe users on Linux.

    Posted via CB10
    Perhaps that's true in PC's. But what about servers? Linux is extremely successful on servers. And driver support on enterprise class hardware is actually very good. Linux destroyed the market for proprietary, closed source *nix in enterprises.

    And of course Linux is by far the most popular kernel on phones. Second place is not even close.
    07-12-14 09:44 PM
  21. BCITMike's Avatar
    There are a lot of developers at a lot of companies who are paid a lot of money to contribute to the big open source projects.

    Look at the commiter list for Linux. Or for that matter, how many Android developers do you think are volunteers?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    True, but that could be so they sell more of their products, or need it to be compatible with their system (big cloud guys). I know of a case where the commercial version has fixes and features not shared with open source and quality and stability are far apart. Not sure if thats bad policy or just difference of coders.

    If there wasn't a financial benefit to pay the salary of a dev working on open source, it wouldn't happen, for the most part.
    07-12-14 10:35 PM
  22. app_Developer's Avatar

    If there wasn't a financial benefit to pay the salary of a dev working on open source, it wouldn't happen, for the most part.
    True! I never bought into RMS' vision of people programming as an act of friendship. That was easy for him to say when he was living off a university and all its endowment and sponsorships. The rest of us have mortgages to pay, families to take care of, and children to put through college.
    07-12-14 10:42 PM
  23. Ment's Avatar
    True! I never bought into RMS' vision of people programming as an act of friendship. That was easy for him to say when he was living off a university and all its endowment and sponsorships. The rest of us have mortgages to pay, families to take care of, and children to put through college.
    Dang you brought in RMS. Dude was an Omega class coder but his philosophical musings don't hold water today.
    07-12-14 11:36 PM
  24. meltbox360's Avatar
    I read up on it more and yes the shortcomings are mostly desktop. Although for android tons of drivers are proprietary. It's what slowed people down so much when they tried to keep old phones up to date with newer roms. It would seem if the drivers had a stable abi or api they would have just worked.

    The truth is the real growth market for Linux is desktop. Maybe the fact of the matter is that in order for it to work they need to fork the kernel and take the desktop part it's own separate way. It's just that then you lose the development pace...

    I don't know the solution. I just know that developing the kernel and every layer above it with no coherent vision holding it all together will fail today and forevermore to result in an end user friendly product. Hence desktop Linux will not be widely used. Some distros like Manjaro might be the way to go?

    Posted via CB10
    kojita likes this.
    07-13-14 12:28 PM
  25. sibeans's Avatar
    ART runs great on my n4, I would love to have the option to switch to it on my z10
    07-14-14 12:48 AM
43 12

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