12-10-18 11:22 AM
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  1. conite's Avatar
    Just for grins, and only since conite is directly referencing markmall: conite, why do you care what people think about Chen, mistakes Blackberry made, how stupid Android is, or how BB10 will live forever? You're on record numerous times as saying BB never had a shot past 2006 and you are of the belief that BB10 is going to die anyway no matter what anyone does, so why does it bother you what other people think?


    Posted via CB10
    I feel that BB10 was doomed 4 years before it launched, yes.

    But this is a discussion board, so I discuss.

    I enjoy the BBMo products more than any other smartphones on the market, and I also have a soft spot for BlackBerry, as a Canadian company with a large presence in my hometown.

    I also like Chen, because he saved several thousand jobs that would have probably moved outside of Canada, and saved the company.
    12-06-18 04:52 PM
  2. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Really? How often does this really happen? And how old are we? Does it really take that much patience when someone from the other side of the world writes in poor English that he wants to use a certain Android app? Big deal. No one is asking for snarky comments.

    Posted via CB10
    I think we're saying the same thing. People are entitled to respectful answers that help them understand how to resolve their issues, and that explain gently when it's simply impossible. Where they live and their level of English fluency is immaterial.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-06-18 05:03 PM
  3. markmall's Avatar
    I feel that BB10 was doomed 4 years before it launched, yes.

    But this is a discussion board, so I discuss.

    I enjoy the BBMo products more than any other smartphones on the market, and I also have a soft spot for BlackBerry, as a Canadian company with a large presence in my hometown.

    I also like Chen, because he saved several thousand jobs that would have probably moved outside of Canada, and saved the company.
    If I lived in Waterloo I would have a chip on my shoulder against Chen since he's too important to actually live in the same city as the headquarters of the company he's the CEO of. I can't think of any other example of this. I wonder if Chen rents office space in San Jose or somewhere and keeps an inner circle of people.

    Posted via CB10
    12-06-18 05:08 PM
  4. conite's Avatar
    If I lived in Waterloo I would have a chip on my shoulder against Chen since he's too important to actually live in the same city as the headquarters of the company he's the CEO of. I can't think of any other example of this. I wonder if Chen rents office space in San Jose or somewhere and keeps an inner circle of people.

    Posted via CB10
    I'm not from Waterloo.

    I wouldn't live there either. Lol.
    12-06-18 05:34 PM
  5. Zidentia's Avatar
    My comments about past management decisions in the BB10 forums are today always in response to someone making an assertion of opinion about business and marketing events as fact -- sometimes based on assumptions that are represented as fact. I think all this misleads others into thinking that there is only one opinion and it's vexing.

    Most that share my opinion have left CB already. I don't want others to leave because that weakens the forums and might shorten my use of BB10.

    Posted via CB10
    Blackberry certainly made plenty of mistakes. All companies do and these mistakes only become more glaring when your ledger sheet sheet starts to change color. The Jim and Mike era and the missteps have been well documented and contributed to the first critical mistake and that was missing the trends in the industry and also not realizing how consumer tastes would topple the enterprise piece.
    When Thorsten was brought up there he was clearly in a bad position. The board had already started to look past BB10 and Android was already being looked at. These factors have been documented but never acknowledged. Thorsten was given the task of pushing handsets and BB10 out to the public and he was blocked at every turn by the board. He did have some allies on the board but the majority over ruled him.

    Did he decide to launch the Z10 first instead of the Q10? Hard to say but he certainly takes the blame. Many point to this at a key factor in poor sales but there are plenty of indicators that suggest the Z10 was already in play at manufacturing and Thorsten was simply trying to make it successful. In my research it is clear his vision differed greatly from the activists investor board members in the long term strategy of Blackberry. He may have been trying to take a similar tacit to one he used at Siemens that worked. I think it is clear he was successful in many of his technology roles but not all.

    If Blackberry had refocused on marketing and the business sector they may have been able to hang on. The consumer market was not totally solidified by then so there could have been another platform that made it. If you look back that does seem unlikely based on what Google did to dominate by playing the long game in profits.

    Thorsten was also tasked with selling the company off to go private once it became clear they could not hit their goals with BB10. The failure to go private was not his but the investors who failed to line up the funds. Thorsten was simply following orders and hitting roadblocks at every turn.

    John Chen was hired to do a different strategy and that was to align the long term goals with a business prime in software. They did try to make a last swing at hardware but it was primarily to fulfill contract obligations and Thorsten was not asked to step down but he saw the direction and he felt he needed to leave.

    John Chen has had many successes as well but he has also had some failures including recently stepping down from the Wells Fargo board after the recent accounting scandals. In addition the language and approach has been similar from both Thorsten and John. They both offered licenses on BB10 but John was the one who was able to license the name only. John Chen also explored taking the company private but again they could not get the funding.

    John Chen should be commended for doing his job but that is his job, to put the company on a sustainable path to profitability. That is the job of any CEO and to glorify him for this is bit absurd. It just appears the timing and the fit was right for Mr. Chen and Blackberry.

    I, for one, am happy they will survive but it needs to be clear that a good portion of the blame for the dilemma Blackberry found themselves in can be attributed to the BOD. There have been many stories by The Globe and other business outlets that say just that. A lot of mistakes by everyone and a failed execution of a new OS and hardware platform.
    Troy Tiscareno and elfabio80 like this.
    12-06-18 07:17 PM
  6. joeldf's Avatar
    Did he decide to launch the Z10 first instead of the Q10? Hard to say but he certainly takes the blame. Many point to this at a key factor in poor sales but there are plenty of indicators that suggest the Z10 was already in play at manufacturing and Thorsten was simply trying to make it successful. .
    Just on that note. I know many complained about that choice at the time, but I was glad the Z10 came out first. That was the only device I was ever interested in.

    But I also always wondered why BB didn't just release both devices at the same time. The whole idea that was always brought up was that one would cannibalize the sales of the other. That's just bull. I mean, those who wanted a slab (like me) would get the slab. We weren't going to get the Q10 if it came out first.... just because it came out first. We'd wait. Those that wanted the keyboard phone would get the Q10 and not the Z10.

    Of course, there are people who buy every phone BlackBerry makes just because they can. But that's not common.

    I always thought that BlackBerry's sales mistake was releasing one type or another individually. And they are still doing that to this day - even as a different company - although, at this point, it's debatable if a Motion2 will ever be released.
    12-06-18 07:51 PM
  7. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Just on that note. I know many complained about that choice at the time, but I was glad the Z10 came out first. That was the only device I was ever interested in.

    But I also always wondered why BB didn't just release both devices at the same time. The whole idea that was always brought up was that one would cannibalize the sales of the other. That's just bull. I mean, those who wanted a slab (like me) would get the slab. We weren't going to get the Q10 if it came out first.... just because it came out first. We'd wait. Those that wanted the keyboard phone would get the Q10 and not the Z10.

    Of course, there are people who buy every phone BlackBerry makes just because they can. But that's not common.

    I always thought that BlackBerry's sales mistake was releasing one type or another individually. And they are still doing that to this day - even as a different company - although, at this point, it's debatable if a Motion2 will ever be released.
    Back then I think flawed logic was that Z10 would setup BB10 as modern OS with modern VKB form compared to PKB “old stereotypes
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    12-06-18 09:14 PM
  8. curves2000's Avatar
    Just on that note. I know many complained about that choice at the time, but I was glad the Z10 came out first. That was the only device I was ever interested in.

    But I also always wondered why BB didn't just release both devices at the same time. The whole idea that was always brought up was that one would cannibalize the sales of the other. That's just bull. I mean, those who wanted a slab (like me) would get the slab. We weren't going to get the Q10 if it came out first.... just because it came out first. We'd wait. Those that wanted the keyboard phone would get the Q10 and not the Z10.

    Of course, there are people who buy every phone BlackBerry makes just because they can. But that's not common.

    I always thought that BlackBerry's sales mistake was releasing one type or another individually. And they are still doing that to this day - even as a different company - although, at this point, it's debatable if a Motion2 will ever be released.


    From what I understand and I have read in various forms was that the physical keyboard market was dead/dying and was a dead end. People wanted touchscreens and big screens at that.

    People who bought BlackBerry devices, wanted BlackBerry phones with keyboards, not general, run of the mill devices. Both schools of thought in essence are correct.

    In 2018 the physical keyboard market is dead outside a few thousand BlackBerry fans who still keep BlackBerry Mobile in business.

    I do think BlackBerry should have launched both phones at the same time and I think they should have bought QNX 2 years earlier. Both situations would have helped BlackBerry and BlackBerry 10 but it's not possible to go back in time..



    Posted via CB10
    12-07-18 03:24 AM
  9. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Back then I think flawed logic was that Z10 would setup BB10 as modern OS with modern VKB form compared to PKB “old stereotypes
    I bought the Z10 at launch because my old 9700 was almost dead and I couldn't wait about her couple of months for the Q10. I assumed I'd only keep it until the Q10 was available. But, within a month, I realized I didn't need a PKB anymore with BB's VKB and flick to type.

    It's still my favorite device ever, by a huge margin. Form factor, screen brightness, and overall usability are second to none.

    The negatives: small battery and the fact that even a hairline fracture of the screen breaks touch functionality and requires a full replacement.

    Alas, in many ways I'm afraid the Z10 will be my "last" mobile phone. I'll still own portable devices, but I can't see using an Android or iOS phone as intensely as my BlackBerry devices over the past 15 years, with 4-6 hours of active use and hundreds of messages a day. Android devices are like video game consoles, with apps as games.. Great business model, but poor integration between apps.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-07-18 09:44 AM
  10. conite's Avatar
    Great business model, but poor integration between apps.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    This is the part I don't understand.

    App integration, interoperability, and sharing are infinitely deeper on Android.

    That's probably the first thing I noticed after switching.

    On another note, if your chosen workflow has somehow painted you in a corner such that it takes an extra 60 seconds a day to operate an Android device over a BB10 device, how on earth can that be enough to completely change the way you live your work life?
    12-07-18 09:46 AM
  11. Leyra B10's Avatar
    This is the part I don't understand.

    App integration, interoperability, and sharing are infinitely deeper on Android.

    That's probably the first thing I noticed after switching.

    On another note, if your chosen workflow has somehow painted you in a corner such that it takes an extra 60 seconds a day to operate an Android device over a BB10 device, how on earth can that be enough to completely change the way you live your work life?
    Considering google's application stack I see why you might say that, but BB10's protocol stack and invocation framework seem like a better definition of integrated. Sharing too.

    Posted via CB10
    12-07-18 10:49 AM
  12. conite's Avatar
    Considering google's application stack I see why you might say that, but BB10's protocol stack and invocation framework seem like a better definition of integrated. Sharing too.

    Posted via CB10
    But I can share almost everything from one app to another app on Android - capability that was only hinted at on BB10.

    Technical ability, and actual implementation are two different things.
    12-07-18 10:51 AM
  13. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    This is the part I don't understand.

    App integration, interoperability, and sharing are infinitely deeper on Android.

    That's probably the first thing I noticed after switching.

    On another note, if your chosen workflow has somehow painted you in a corner such that it takes an extra 60 seconds a day to operate an Android device over a BB10 device, how on earth can that be enough to completely change the way you live your work life?
    Good questions. I'll try to explain, but a proper explanation would require a bunch of screen shots and references to research that would be better in a proper blog post that I've been working on for a few weeks and that I probably won't post here as I prefer to remain anonymous.

    1) When it comes to interoperability, while all the connections certainly exist in Android (the infinite deepness you describe), I have found the user experience to be severely limited by the lack of consistent design between apps from different developers. The result is too much navigating and clicking to accomplish what I want to do. The seams between the apps and the OS are painfully obvious. I know you like being able to select "best-of-breed" apps for each function, but I prefer an integrated suite built around a specific workflow for high-volume tasks. So I'm pretty much limited to the Hub on Android, which I find inferior to the Hub on BB10.

    2) The reasons I anticipate a dramatic change in workflow for myself are several:

    Convergence -- as phones become larger two-handed devices and laptops become smaller, lighter, with longer battery life and alway-on LTE connections, I find I am more productive on the laptop. I really don't have much use for a mobile phone that requires two hands just to scan an hour's worth of emails. No amount of practice has made the simple act of screening 6-8 account a reliable, one-handed job for me because my thumb can't reach across to the left bezel on my KEYone.

    What I've done for 15 years is use my phone as my primary email client, even when sat at my desktop or laptop computer. I would go weeks without ever opening my PC email client. That simply hasn't worked on the KEYone.

    I haven't given up hope. Android has improved dramatically over the past three years, with an improved focus on user control of permissions and notifications. I'm optimistic that the arrival of gestures and changes in settings in mainstream apps will improve the UX for me.

    On the other hand, I don't think Android, the developers or anyone else have the proper incentives to improve the use of mobile devices for professionals. When corporate IT held the purse stings for the industry, including the carriers, a lot of effort went into usability for enterprise. Now, consumers are the target, and most new features are aimed at consumers. Thus has led to the camera and screen wars which have required larger batteries and more powerful processors, resulting in today's Frankenphones.

    I simply don't find a lot of value in the features that have been added to phones over the past 7-8 years. The huge exception is GPS, which is, IMO, the one essential function of a modern smart phone.

    Web browsing? Better on a laptop

    Video? Better on a laptop

    Cameras? Obviously important for people who use timely images on social media, but that's not part of my job. I prefer my dedicated cameras.

    Social networks? Important for some, but I almost always need to post from a PC for professional posts as I'm using screen shots of data and analytics not available for mobile.

    The bottom line is that mobile phones are no longer highly-focused on workplace productivity. They are too large, too invasive, and require too much effort for no gains in productivity for me. I'll keep one around because they've become necessities, but I won't rely on one for work anymore.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    conite likes this.
    12-07-18 10:54 AM
  14. conite's Avatar
    Good questions. I'll try to explain, but a proper explanation would require a bunch of screen shots and references to research that would be better in a proper blog post that I've been working on for a few weeks and that I probably won't post here as I prefer to remain anonymous.

    1) When it comes to interoperability, while all the connections certainly exist in Android (the infinite deepness you describe), I have found the user experience to be severely limited by the lack of consistent design between apps from different developers. The result is too much navigating and clicking to accomplish what I want to do. The seams between the apps and the OS are painfully obvious. I know you like being able to select "best-of-breed" apps for each function, but I prefer an integrated suite built around a specific workflow for high-volume tasks. So I'm pretty much limited to the Hub on Android, which I find inferior to the Hub on BB10.

    2) The reasons I anticipate a dramatic change in workflow for myself are several:

    Convergence -- as phones become larger two-handed devices and laptops become smaller, lighter, with longer battery life and alway-on LTE connections, I find I am more productive on the laptop. I really don't have much use for a mobile phone that requires two hands just to scan an hour's worth of emails. No amount of practice has made the simple act of screening 6-8 account a reliable, one-handed job for me because my thumb can't reach across to the left bezel on my KEYone.

    What I've done for 15 years is use my phone as my primary email client, even when sat at my desktop or laptop computer. I would go weeks without ever opening my PC email client. That simply hasn't worked on the KEYone.

    I haven't given up hope. Android has improved dramatically over the past three years, with an improved focus on user control of permissions and notifications. I'm optimistic that the arrival of gestures and changes in settings in mainstream apps will improve the UX for me.

    On the other hand, I don't think Android, the developers or anyone else have the proper incentives to improve the use of mobile devices for professionals. When corporate IT held the purse stings for the industry, including the carriers, a lot of effort went into usability for enterprise. Now, consumers are the target, and most new features are aimed at consumers. Thus has led to the camera and screen wars which have required larger batteries and more powerful processors, resulting in today's Frankenphones.

    I simply don't find a lot of value in the features that have been added to phones over the past 7-8 years. The huge exception is GPS, which is, IMO, the one essential function of a modern smart phone.

    Web browsing? Better on a laptop

    Video? Better on a laptop

    Cameras? Obviously important for people who use timely images on social media, but that's not part of my job. I prefer my dedicated cameras.

    Social networks? Important for some, but I almost always need to post from a PC for professional posts as I'm using screen shots of data and analytics not available for mobile.

    The bottom line is that mobile phones are no longer highly-focused on workplace productivity. They are too large, too invasive, and require too much effort for no gains in productivity for me. I'll keep one around because they've become necessities, but I won't rely on one for work anymore.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    Since you're focused mainly on the HUB. It's understandable.
    12-07-18 11:00 AM
  15. Leyra B10's Avatar
    But I can share almost everything from one app to another app on Android - capability that was only hinted at on BB10.

    Technical ability, and actual implementation are two different things.
    It was merely hinted at. I rarely see many comments over Evernote, BB Express or One Drive but those are enough to reach farther than an android. Using scripts archived in my email folders is another pretty huge advantage.

    Posted via CB10
    12-07-18 11:03 AM
  16. conite's Avatar
    It was merely hinted at. I rarely see many comments over Evernote, BB Express or One Drive but those are enough to reach farther than an android. Using scripts archived in my email folders is another pretty huge advantage.

    Posted via CB10
    OneDrive and Evernote integration are far deeper on Android.

    I can post to Evernote from any browser or app. I can share to OneDrive from any app, and sync with OneDrive with multiple apps - not to mention full access to Office 365.

    There are tools to sync any Android folder with OneDrive - not just photos.
    12-07-18 11:05 AM
  17. Leyra B10's Avatar
    OneDrive and Evernote integration are far more integrated on Android.

    I can post to Evernote from any browser or app. I can share to OneDrive from any app, and sync with OneDrive with multiple apps - not to mention full access to Office 365.
    Well then I think that's just a difference of opinion, while it does have more availability it doesn't have more physical access. A more technical feat to pull off but that's what using a BB was all about in my mind.

    Posted via CB10
    12-07-18 11:15 AM
  18. conite's Avatar
    Well then I think that's just a difference of opinion, while it does have more availability it doesn't have more physical access. A more technical feat to pull off but that's what using a BB was all about in my mind.

    Posted via CB10
    What about syncing ANY folder on your device with OneDrive - not just photos?
    12-07-18 11:16 AM
  19. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Since you're focused mainly on the HUB. It's understandable.
    LOL. That's an appropriate consolidation of my answer.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-07-18 11:17 AM
  20. Leyra B10's Avatar
    Junctions, symbolic links and the native apps 'pin it'
    You can run shell commands and a web server in the flash drive plugged into your PC at home from the BB. And with automation of MS flow the sharing isn't that impressive. I am envious of the software that you can run on an android, and ofc the web browsers.

    Posted via CB10
    12-07-18 11:26 AM
  21. MarteeNL's Avatar
    When I think about Android:

    Planned obsolescence
    Bloathware
    Adds
    Endless irritating notifications
    Security updates only for 2 years
    Android OS updates only for flagship phones
    Google spying on you.. data hungry
    12-07-18 12:35 PM
  22. conite's Avatar
    When I think about Android:

    Planned obsolescence
    Bloathware
    Adds
    Endless irritating notifications
    Security updates only for 2 years
    Android OS updates only for flagship phones
    Google spying on you.. data hungry
    A lot of that changes with Android One.

    $200 Nokia 6.1 on latest patch and Pie. No bloat - plain vanilla Android.

    Many have moved to 3 years of updates.

    Notifications can be tailored to anything between all to zero. Many notification channels exist for each and every app.

    Pay to remove ads. Developers have to make a living somehow.
    12-07-18 01:16 PM
  23. markmall's Avatar
    Since you're focused mainly on the HUB. It's understandable.
    Can I frame this? Haha.

    Posted via CB10
    12-07-18 03:25 PM
  24. conite's Avatar
    Can I frame this? Haha.

    Posted via CB10
    Feel free!
    12-07-18 03:34 PM
  25. wbalogh's Avatar
    Good questions. I'll try to explain, but a proper explanation would require a bunch of screen shots and references to research that would be better in a proper blog post that I've been working on for a few weeks and that I probably won't post here as I prefer to remain anonymous.

    1) When it comes to interoperability, while all the connections certainly exist in Android (the infinite deepness you describe), I have found the user experience to be severely limited by the lack of consistent design between apps from different developers. The result is too much navigating and clicking to accomplish what I want to do. The seams between the apps and the OS are painfully obvious. I know you like being able to select "best-of-breed" apps for each function, but I prefer an integrated suite built around a specific workflow for high-volume tasks. So I'm pretty much limited to the Hub on Android, which I find inferior to the Hub on BB10.

    2) The reasons I anticipate a dramatic change in workflow for myself are several:

    Convergence -- as phones become larger two-handed devices and laptops become smaller, lighter, with longer battery life and alway-on LTE connections, I find I am more productive on the laptop. I really don't have much use for a mobile phone that requires two hands just to scan an hour's worth of emails. No amount of practice has made the simple act of screening 6-8 account a reliable, one-handed job for me because my thumb can't reach across to the left bezel on my KEYone.

    What I've done for 15 years is use my phone as my primary email client, even when sat at my desktop or laptop computer. I would go weeks without ever opening my PC email client. That simply hasn't worked on the KEYone.

    I haven't given up hope. Android has improved dramatically over the past three years, with an improved focus on user control of permissions and notifications. I'm optimistic that the arrival of gestures and changes in settings in mainstream apps will improve the UX for me.

    On the other hand, I don't think Android, the developers or anyone else have the proper incentives to improve the use of mobile devices for professionals. When corporate IT held the purse stings for the industry, including the carriers, a lot of effort went into usability for enterprise. Now, consumers are the target, and most new features are aimed at consumers. Thus has led to the camera and screen wars which have required larger batteries and more powerful processors, resulting in today's Frankenphones.

    I simply don't find a lot of value in the features that have been added to phones over the past 7-8 years. The huge exception is GPS, which is, IMO, the one essential function of a modern smart phone.

    Web browsing? Better on a laptop

    Video? Better on a laptop

    Cameras? Obviously important for people who use timely images on social media, but that's not part of my job. I prefer my dedicated cameras.

    Social networks? Important for some, but I almost always need to post from a PC for professional posts as I'm using screen shots of data and analytics not available for mobile.

    The bottom line is that mobile phones are no longer highly-focused on workplace productivity. They are too large, too invasive, and require too much effort for no gains in productivity for me. I'll keep one around because they've become necessities, but I won't rely on one for work anymore.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    Wow. Beautiful. Came here to read and again, I got educated. Thanks!

    Posted via CB10
    12-10-18 08:41 AM
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