03-29-17 07:18 AM
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  1. app_Developer's Avatar
    + And just, doesn't BB10 "File Manager" is not made by RT to get instant access to your PC with your BB10 device and you can get instant access to your PC anywhere you are, just need to leave PC turned on and have WiFi or just mobile data for you BB10 device?
    Why would such an application require an RTOS?

    It doesn't. People here are conflating several different OS concepts (including 2 very different and unrelated mistakes which the BB/QNX team made with BB10). The application you describe does not require real time process scheduling at all. For one thing, the latency across the network is ENORMOUS compared to any potential latency at the process scheduling level. There is no way you could even detect a difference of such an application running on an RTOS vs any other reasonable scheduler. The latency will overwhelmingly be from the network/internet.

    You can try this on your Android phone (which is not an RTOS). Look at pcAnywhere for Android or several other similar apps in Play.
    02-22-16 07:02 AM
  2. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    I've been working in real time software development since the 1980's

    There are probably better people for that (App-Developer, for example), but, to simplify, the point of an RTOS is to guarantee that certain processes will be processed on a specific schedule. That's important in applications where time is a critical factor - a vehicle, or a factory, or a power plant. You don't want a car waiting a few seconds to process a collision warning or suspension adjustment, for example.
    Very good. Though true hard core real time people would phrase it as "the system is required to respond to external events within a guaranteed time". This time can be nanoseconds on up to minutes depending on the system task. Nuclear reactors, airplanes and cars need quite fast response for certain tasks. Bank machines an lottery terminals need much slower, but still real time responses.

    But in all of these cases, the computer running this OS has all the electrical power it needs, and it can throw more horsepower (requiring more electrical power) at the problem if it starts to get behind. A mobile device that runs on a relatively small battery is very different - if you just run the CPU at full speed all the time, you'll burn through your battery very quickly. You might not get as much lag, but that doesn't help much if your battery only lasts a couple of hours. I'm not saying a RTOS can't be written to work around that - BB10 proves that it can - but doing so negates much of the advantages of a RTOS in the first place.
    This is not true at all. successful real time software does not necessarily depend on processing power. I have seen far too many engineers who haven't studied real time processing fall into that trap.

    The other issue is that a RTOS has to keep apps running whether or not they're actually being used or not. This is why BB10 has to have "active frames" and why it is limited to 8 of them (and fewer on devices with less RAM), while I can have a hundred apps "running" (actually, in most cases, just loaded into RAM but mostly suspended, with occasional checks to see if something needs attention) on an Android or iOS device.
    This is also not true. A real time system with a very quick response time might be resident in memory, but does not have to run until the external event is detected in hardware. The emergency shutdown processes for a nuclear reactor may not run for any reason for the full life time of the reactor. Of course systems can be designed the way you describe, but they generally fail the main test of a true real time system in being able to guarantee a response time. Periodically checking to see if work needs to be done is almost always the wrong thing to do if you have real time constraints.

    The folks who designed every OS other than BB10 chose against basing that OS on a RTOS, because a RTOS simply wasn't a great fit for the needs and limitations of a mobile OS - which are quite different from a car, factory, etc. RTOSs are ideal for those environments, which is why they are used there very successfully, but that doesn't make RTOSs better for everything. A hammer makes a great nail-pounder, but is lousy for driving screws. Likewise, a screwdriver works screws well, but makes a lousy hammer. They're both important tools, but to get the benefit, you have to match the tool to the application.
    Actually the needs of a mobile phone are very similar. Those needs are handled by a RTOS that runs in its own processor. People who are familiar with putting together auto-loaders will be aware of the software that runs as the radio module.

    Beyond that, does a smartphone have to have a RTOS running on the application processor? Clearly not, but running on a real time system has many benefits when it comes to areas like augmented reality, some medical applications and others.

    There are some folks here on CB - the vast majority I'm sure who'd never heard of QNX, or of a RTOS, before BB bought QNX - who clearly believe that QNX would make anything and everything better, mostly because it's owned by BB and uses as the foundation of BB10, but also because it's a RTOS, and somehow that makes it the superhero of OSs (even though something like LinuxRT is dismissed as junk, despite also being a Unix-like RTOS). They know all the buzzwords and can quote all of the plans that BB anounced when they bought QNX, but few really know what any of those buzzwords actually mean, or how they apply to mobile OSs. That's all just noise - what matters is that QNX is better - because reasons!
    I don't disagree with your general thrust here, that QNX alone could not make a difference for BB10 success. However there are two problems with this paragraph. You imply QNX is UNIX like, but it is not. POSIX compliance may make it appear to look like UNIX, but it is very very different. Since we are talking about RTOS features, it is the UNIX like scheduling that usually results in LinuxRT being dismissed as junk. If LinuxRT solves your problem then clearly it is not junk. But I have seen a lot of people start out on projects using LinuxRT assuming it can solve hard real time problems only to be stymied by the scheduler. I actually worked with a true real time Unix in the 80's. It had a completely different schedule from other UNIXs of the time.

    I'm not a programmer or developer, and I can't speak to the fine details, but I know the basics, and it's enough to know that QNX is a terrific, industry-leading tool for certain applications, but that fact doesn't make QNX the best choice for every application. You have to match the tool to the application.
    Ultimately your conclusion is right on.
    iHadLastBB and CmdrStraker like this.
    02-22-16 07:06 AM
  3. paulwallace1234's Avatar
    I have a feeling nova won't have many developer friends by the way this thread is going...

    Saying it's our fault for the situation we are in is simply outrageous, you cannot expect a flower to grow without water and nutrients; just like you cannot expect a ecosystem to grow without a proper platform and consumers.
    Posted via CB10
    02-22-16 07:14 AM
  4. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    I have a feeling nova won't have many developer friends by the way this thread is going...

    Saying it's our fault for the situation we are in is simply outrageous, you cannot expect a flower to grow without water and nutrients; just like you cannot expect a ecosystem to grow without a proper platform and consumers.
    Posted via CB10
    Well, it looks like you didn't see "The Martian")

    Let me workaround for you because you mixed-over things, BB10 device is a "flower", developers are the "water", platform/ecosystem are the "nutrients". To make consumers want "flower", major developers need to move/make their apps native for BB10 to create ecosystem like iOS/Android, existing BB10 developers needs to create something new what is not on iOS/Android.
    02-22-16 07:34 AM
  5. GadgetTravel's Avatar
    Well, it looks like you didn't see "The Martian")

    Let me workaround for you because you mixed-over things, BB10 device is a "flower", developers are the "water", platform/ecosystem are the "nutrients". To make consumers want "flower", major developers need to move/make their apps native for BB10 to create ecosystem like iOS/Android, existing BB10 developers needs to create something new what is not on iOS/Android.
    Except no one needs this flower
    Blacklatino likes this.
    02-22-16 08:30 AM
  6. Ronindan's Avatar
    Well, it looks like you didn't see "The Martian")

    Let me workaround for you because you mixed-over things, BB10 device is a "flower", developers are the "water", platform/ecosystem are the "nutrients". To make consumers want "flower", major developers need to move/make their apps native for BB10 to create ecosystem like iOS/Android, existing BB10 developers needs to create something new what is not on iOS/Android.
    so what is this great idea of yours of an app that will make bb10 stand out from the competition?

    oh right you have none. but yet you expect other people to do it for you. how ironic. can you even write one line of code in basic? or use MS DOS?

    but expect bb10 developers to come with apps that will change the fortunes of bb. only in Crackberry
    02-22-16 08:50 AM
  7. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    Except no one needs this flower
    Well, no one really even tried to put some "water" and "nutrients" so hard for this flower to begin with, if they did, who knows, maybe everyone would want this flower for this Christmas

    Everyone here is only talking about market share, insignificant user base and other bla bla bla, if you read this:
    Windows Phone and BlackBerry OS are fading into nothingness

    "Apple’s iOS share fell a tad, likely as Android grew, from 20.4 percent to 17.7 percent", so why app developers should bother to create apps for iOS if "Android continues to have the lion’s share of the mobile market with an 80.7 percent market share, up from 76 percent"? If its not developers "love" for Apple, I can not imagine other reason why iOS still have such developers support. Developers could just drop iOS and only make apps for Android and like with BB10, users would follow and say the same like you do guys and Apple would be in the same "sinking ship" altogether with BB10 and WP in the same second.

    Blackberry could learn and do the same what Apple does for developers to make their also becoming insignificant iOS still supported. Maybe then everyone would want this flower then.
    02-22-16 08:51 AM
  8. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    so what is this great idea of yours of an app that will make bb10 stand out from the competition?

    oh right you have none. but yet you expect other people to do it for you. how ironic. can you even write one line of code in basic? or use MS DOS?

    but expect bb10 developers to come with apps that will change the fortunes of bb. only in Crackberry
    Well, you are right, I'm not a programmer, I'm just could call myself as influencer for existing BB10 developers to start make something new/unique/important rather then wasting their time for making worthless third-party clients for dying Operating System. This is not what it makes flower flourish. New trendy product/services apps could make OS flourish like it is with iOS/Android every ~6 months.

    + Still nothing for BB10 in 3 years for a press to talk about like it is with iOS.
    02-22-16 08:59 AM
  9. Ronindan's Avatar
    Well, you are right, I'm not a programmer, I'm just could call myself as influencer for existing BB10 developers to start make something new/unique/important rather then wasting their time for making worthless third-party clients for dying Operating System. This is not what it makes flower flourish. New trendy product/services apps could make OS flourish like it is with iOS every ~6 months.
    You're not influencing anybody and just pissing off the remaining bb10 developers. great job

    by the way how many bb10 paid apps have you purchased. and please post an actual screen shot of it from your phone. and not just a typed list.
    02-22-16 09:01 AM
  10. conite's Avatar
    "Apples iOS share fell a tad, likely as Android grew, from 20.4 percent to 17.7 percent", so why app developers should bother to create apps for iOS if "Android continues to have the lions share of the mobile market with an 80.7 percent market share,
    Because 17.7% of the globe is still a huge number. 0.2% is not.
    02-22-16 09:02 AM
  11. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    You're not influencing anybody and just pissing off the remaining bb10 developers. great job
    Great! Still better provoke some emotions, then nothing at all.
    02-22-16 09:05 AM
  12. Ronindan's Avatar
    Great! Still better provoke some emotions, then nothing at all.
    only in crackberry.
    02-22-16 09:11 AM
  13. app_Developer's Avatar
    Well, you are right, I'm not a programmer, I'm just could call myself as influencer for existing BB10 developers to start make something new/unique/important rather then wasting their time for making worthless third-party clients for dying Operating System. This is not what it makes flower flourish.
    I would agree with you, but right now I can't think of anything you can make on BB10 that you can't already make on Android or iOS. Can you?

    With iOS in 2008, the situation was very different. My employer at the time wouldn't fund me to make apps for iOS because almost everyone at the time had BlackBerry's. That made sense, except that I was fascinated by what I could do with iOS which I couldn't do on BB7. Get developers fascinated with something, and practical economic concerns don't matter as much (at least in the short term.)
    iHadLastBB likes this.
    02-22-16 09:19 AM
  14. app_Developer's Avatar
    "Apple’s iOS share fell a tad, likely as Android grew, from 20.4 percent to 17.7 percent", so why app developers should bother to create apps for iOS if "Android continues to have the lion’s share of the mobile market with an 80.7 percent market share, up from 76 percent"? If its not developers "love" for Apple, I can not imagine other reason why iOS still have such developers support. .
    I can answer this from the perspective of my company. The majority of our customers are on Android, but the majority of our high end (high profit) customers are still on iOS. If that changes in the future, of course iOS will become a lesser priority for us. As of right now, though, iOS remains the higher priority because that 17.7% is a very interesting and valuable 17.7%. (In our case, it's closer to 20% for our customer base)

    On the other hand, we know most of our BB10 customers also own other devices that are Android or iOS. So they still have access to us from the mobile website and/or apps on their other devices. We have no justification for making a BB10 app and then keeping it up to date wrt to our other apps.
    iHadLastBB likes this.
    02-22-16 09:32 AM
  15. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    ...
    by the way how many bb10 paid apps have you purchased. and please post an actual screen shot of it from your phone. and not just a typed list.
    Easy question, none. I would rather buy iPhone 6S Plus 128GB for 1 089 Eur, Microsoft Lumia 950 XL for 699 Eur or even Samsung Galaxy S6 edge+ 64G for 899 Eur and get original apps for free or paid from true creators itself, then pay for worthless cheap copycat apps for 0.99 on Blackberry World. It could be the different story if BB10 apps for the services which are natively created and supported by the creators, but not by indie developer using "clients". No offense, but this is how it works, Ronindan. This is how logic of consumer works and BBW today just looks like fake lowest quality "Louis Vuitton" bags store. Just IMHO, and I'm not that type of consumer to support fake. But it would be nice if existing BB10 developers offered something real and if major creators showed some love for BB10 and made native apps.

    In other words.. Honestly, Ronindan, can you tell me at least one app worth of buying in Blackberry World? I couldn't find any in 3 years and please do not make a list of third-party clients, just list of unique, useful developed and created by creator itself for BB10, not by indie copycats? I would love to check them out, even maybe you will influence me to purchase one.

    + you do not have tu BUY app to support developer, he can make money from paid services or even from ads. This is how most of Android developers make for a living, don't they? You do not pay for Walmart for allowance to enter the store, right?
    02-22-16 09:35 AM
  16. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    .. Get developers fascinated with something, and practical economic concerns don't matter as much (at least in the short term.)
    Now this is what I call inspirational!
    02-22-16 09:37 AM
  17. conite's Avatar

    In other words.. Honestly, Ronindan, can you tell me at least one app worth of buying in Blackberry World? I couldn't find any in 3 years and please do not make a list of third-party clients, just list of unique, useful developed and created by creator itself for BB10, not by indie copycats? I would love to check them out, even maybe you will influence me to purchase one.
    That's the whole point they've been trying to convey.

    Who, today, is going to build a fantastically unique app, exclusive to BB10, when there is no one around to buy it?
    Elephant_Canyon and JeepBB like this.
    02-22-16 09:39 AM
  18. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    ...
    On the other hand, we know most of our BB10 customers also own other devices that are Android or iOS. So they still have access to us from the mobile website and/or apps on their other devices. We have no justification for making a BB10 app and then keeping it up to date wrt to our other apps.
    This kind of attitude I was mostly afraid of..
    02-22-16 09:44 AM
  19. app_Developer's Avatar
    Now this is what I call inspirational!
    Inspiration, sadly, is not something at which BlackBerry is very skilled. Go to a WWDC and then compare it to a BBJam.

    This kind of attitude I was mostly afraid of..
    Well, that's reality. We are a business that exists to make a profit. Most of us are shareholders in our own company. So obviously we try to be wise in our choices.
    02-22-16 09:47 AM
  20. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    That's the whole point they've been trying to convey.

    Who, today, is going to build a fantastically unique app, exclusive to BB10, when there is no one around to buy it?
    Sorry, but is there any? "Candy fruit Story" for example? ) I just play "Candy Crush" if I want to. No offense, conite, but it just sounded the same like Minecraft thousands copycats are crying because no one wants to play they game Minesupercraft or whatever ) Ok.. "Minion Rush", but it's free! sorry, to be more exact freemium! So I don't to pay for app. If BB10 developers attitude is the same like all of you guys, then its really no question why no one can make money on BBW.

    Srsly, show me quality product/service/game, then we talk.
    02-22-16 09:50 AM
  21. Ronindan's Avatar
    Inspiration, sadly, is not something at which BlackBerry is very skilled. Go to a WWDC and then compare it to a BBJam.



    Well, that's reality. We are a business that exists to make a profit. Most of us are shareholders in our own company. So obviously we try to be wise in our choices.
    the op does not care about revenue... etc. he just wants bb10 developers to focus only on developing great apps for BB10 regardless of more practical concerns like actually making a living.
    02-22-16 09:52 AM
  22. conite's Avatar
    Sorry, but is there any? "Candy fruit Story" for example? ) I just play "Candy Crush" if I want to. No offense, conite, but it just sounded the same like Minecraft thousands copycats are crying because no one wants to play they game Minesupercraft or whatever ) Ok.. "Minion Rush", but it's free! sorry, to be more exact freemium! So I don't to pay for app. If BB10 developers attitude is the same like all of you guys, then its really no question why no one can make money on BBW.

    Srsly, show me quality product/service/game, then we talk.
    You didn't answer my question.
    02-22-16 09:55 AM
  23. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    the op does not care about revenue... etc. he just wants bb10 developers to focus only on developing great apps for BB10 regardless of more practical concerns like actually making a living.
    Well, to be more exact about focus as OP first of all it would be to stop "developers" creating low quality copycat "apps", after this it would be nice if NOT indie developers, but actual creators make native apps for their services and third thing - indie developers could rather spend their time by creating something new.

    Please tell me how Face10 can be profitable/make for a living, its very interesting, I would like to listen
    02-22-16 09:59 AM
  24. conite's Avatar
    .

    Please tell me how Face10 can be profitable/make for a living, its very interesting, I would like to listen
    What app would you make?
    app_Developer likes this.
    02-22-16 10:02 AM
  25. iHadLastBB's Avatar
    You didn't answer my question.
    AFAIK and you know, there is still couple of millions active users who could be potential buyers and it is not their fault that in BBW is only rubbish. And there's no doubt that same BB10 active users with their BB10 devices also use Amazon/Google store and buy only in Google Play Store because Amazon Store is rubbish as BBW is, no offense. If BB10 developers are to weak to offer anything, it is their own problem like it is with other milions/billions other unsuccessful iOS/Android developers as well. It just sad then you realize that BB10 have none/zero creative developers (this doesn't goes for Nemory, don't feel offended) and in mean time of iOS/Android - there are too many..


    You didn't answer my question also:

    Srsly, show me quality product/service/game app, then we talk.
    02-22-16 10:18 AM
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