02-23-16 01:11 PM
63 123
tools
  1. lawguyman's Avatar
    Older OHA agreements were produced in a lawsuit not too long ago. If BlackBerry's agreement with Google is like those, the real obstacle is compatibility. BlackBerry could release a phone using Android without Google Services or approval if that phone passes all compatibility tests.

    That's probably impossible for a BB10 phone and if it is, BlackBerry isn't devoting the resources to the project to make it happen.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    01-13-16 04:10 PM
  2. Al moon's Avatar
    Upgrade to priv it has lollipop 🍭 runtime...
    screw lollipop ill just get a phone that has MM and has privacy and security already why wait for an update
    01-13-16 05:49 PM
  3. Bla1ze's Avatar
    It should be.


    But it won't be.
    01-13-16 05:55 PM
  4. tryfe's Avatar
    01-13-16 06:08 PM
  5. LuxuryTouringZone's Avatar
    Forget about the runtime and encourage developers to build more quality, native apps that are "missing" on the Blackberry 10 platform.
    ssbtech, gebco, Vistaus and 1 others like this.
    01-13-16 08:44 PM
  6. kvndoom's Avatar
    Soon to ANNOUNCE A TIME IN THE FUTURE WHEN THEY WILL RELEASE Marshmallow, no less...
    Indeed, but at least the effort is being made. Nobody wants newer OS versions on phones more than google does, because much of the headache of OS fragmentation falls on them, just as MS still has to endure some of the pain for the millions of XP boxes still out there. I commend BB for trying to keep their phones current and not fall into the same fragmentation hell as most android OEMs.

    It might play out for the best, it might not. But i like seeing them try.
    01-13-16 09:26 PM
  7. joeldf's Avatar
    Forget about the runtime and encourage developers to build more quality, native apps that are "missing" on the Blackberry 10 platform.
    They tried that already, back in 2013 when they still had a bit more extra cash on hand (remember the BlackBerry Jam sessions back then?). They still got less than a quarter of the promised apps at launch, and it went downhill from there.

    And you think they have any chance of encouraging developers to build native apps now after BlackBerry has already said that further development of BB10 has effectively stopped - other than a few planned security updates over the next few months?

    Now, that is some serious wishful thinking.

    Posted via CB10
    RezzaBuh likes this.
    01-13-16 09:38 PM
  8. crucial bbq's Avatar
    Google?s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary | Ars Technica

    But the relevant bit, emphasis mine:



    Unfortunately, the OHA's member list is woefully out of date (Motorola, The Astonishing Tribe, etc), but one can reasonably assume that BlackBerry is privy to this cloak and dagger business.
    The problem is that the full OHA regulations are not published for public consumption.

    What we know is a combination of bits and pieces found here and there, along with jurisprudence from other legal actions.

    Edit: Thurask has copied one of these bits and pieces above as I was typing this.

    Whether you are a member of not, you have to sign off in order to get access to Google Play Services.
    As we have gone back and forth on this for a few months now, I am still not convinced that BlackBerry joined the OHA let alone the OHA even being a thing anymore. Andy Rubin left Android in 2013 and incidentally that is pretty much when Google stopped aggressively enforcing "rules" and is pretty much when we stopped hearing about the OHA outside stuff like this thread also. That article that thurask published is from 2013. The OHA members list has not been updated since what, 2011? The official OHA webpage has not been updated since 2011. The whole point of the OHA in the first place was to go after and CRUSH Apple and RIM. Android now has 8X% of the world market under its control, kinda makes the whole thing pointless these days, no?

    Andy Rubin left because he knew that Google lost control of Android with all of the fragmentation that was going on.

    What is real is Google Compatibility. Some say that the entire OHA was nothing more than Google to begin with. A vendor can do what they want with Android but if they want the Play Store then they got to play by Google's rules.

    Now if we want to go back in time to the Acer case, Google's official stance was that members could not build non-Android compatible handsets but could participate in competing ecosystems. BB10 is a competing ecosystem, so BlackBerry is cool there. The real question comes down to if ART on BB10 would, or could, qualify as Android compatible?

    And for anyone who thinks that Google is not aware of any of us "illegally" installing Play onto our BB10s, I got a bridge to sell you.



    The other issue is about allowing a manufacturer to run a fork at all. If they have a deal to offer Google Apps to company X, they don't want that same company X to have a competing product. Understandably, Google does not want to actively ASSIST a company to willfully compete against it. If you choose not to support Google Apps, then that's fine and it's company X's prerogative. Company X can't have it both ways though.
    There is Android Compatibility, which is a different discussion altogether, and then there is Google Compatibility. Google Compatibility came (or still does?) in two parts:

    1. In exchange for the Play Store app and G Services, the vendor must also prominently place GApps on the home screen. GApps in and of themselves are not Android, and as we all know are just means to further allow Google to collect your data.

    2. The vendor cannot impede in any way, shape, or form, Google's ability to collect data (hence, compatibility).

    However, in more recent times, Google has been looking to get Play onto as many devices as possible--but not necessarily on all Android devices. For example, Google is looking to put Play into automobile infotainment systems, television sets, smart watches, and so on; not all of which would be running Android or a form of Android. Google has been increasing the viability of Android apps on Chrome and the whole point of the Chrome/Android merger, if it comes to fruition, is to further expand Play's reach, not Android's. In fact, the dude who heads up Chrome, and now Android as well, believes Android itself to be an outdated concept.

    Anyways, my point is this: Google is now transitioning to move Play onto as many devices as possible, but not necessarily Android.

    Now, let's back up a minute: at the end of 2014 we learned that BlackBerry was going to work with Samsung on Knox. Then later in 2015 we learned that BlackBerry was going to work with Google on Android for Work. Somewhere in-between was MWC. Then we get the Priv and wala--it has Samsung's curved screen and Google's Play Store. My speculation is that BlackBerry was going with Android with or without Google/Play, yet it would have likely been an embarrassment for Google if BlackBerry were to release the Priv sans GApps and Play. Google used BlackBerry to help establish AfW as a viable option. Google is allowing BlackBerry to prove that an Android device can be secured beyond what we have seen up to this point. In exchange, Google allows BlackBerry Play without need to join the OHA. They are simply scratching each other's backs.

    And for what it is worth; ZTE and Xioami ship Android handsets sans Play/Google and ZTE is a known member. But perhaps there is an exception for some Asian markets?

    The Nook HD also got the Play Store. As far as I know Barnes and Noble are not OHA members.

    And then there is the BlackPhone 2. Members? Don't think so.
    ssbtech likes this.
    01-13-16 10:30 PM
  9. Doggerz's Avatar
    I remember reading about how Colonel Saunders, if he got a KFC restaurant that wasn't up to snuff, would go in and repossess their cooking pots that he had supplied. Apparently it wasn't just the spice mix, it was also special pots that were needed. Not pots, no fried chicken.

    You get your competitive advantage wherever you can.
    When he was alive KFC was actually really good. After he lost that strict control things went to hell. Was great in the 70's then got worse and worse each decade until it is what it is today. Same with Pizza Hut actually. Was a time it was actually a good pizza. Back in the 70's.

    Man those were the days.

    Z30STA100-5 / 10.3.2.2876 / T-Mobile USA
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    01-13-16 10:54 PM
  10. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    The impression I've always had was that Android Runtime was supposed to be a temporary stop-gap measure to get apps on BB10 until developers created native apps. I never got the impression that it was planned to be permanent. Unfortunately, the developers failed to create native apps.
    01-13-16 10:58 PM
  11. ssbtech's Avatar
    The impression I've always had was that Android Runtime was supposed to be a temporary stop-gap measure to get apps on BB10 until developers created native apps. I never got the impression that it was planned to be permanent. Unfortunately, the developers failed to create native apps.
    And a big part of the issue was that (to my knowledge) developers didn't really have any way to gauge the interest in their apps on BB10 because there was no reliable way to track their use on BB10, unless they were made available through BB World.

    Example: The app I use to control my Yamaha receiver was never in BB World, even as an Android port. I had to load it using Snap, and this gave Yamaha zero metrics on installations. Yamaha probably never realized that there was any need for a BB10 version of the app.
    Laura Knotek and Superfly_FR like this.
    01-13-16 11:02 PM
  12. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    As we have gone back and forth on this for a few months now, I am still not convinced that BlackBerry joined the OHA let alone the OHA even being a thing anymore. Andy Rubin left Android in 2013 and incidentally that is pretty much when Google stopped aggressively enforcing "rules" and is pretty much when we stopped hearing about the OHA outside stuff like this thread also. That article that thurask published is from 2013. The OHA members list has not been updated since what, 2011? The official OHA webpage has not been updated since 2011. The whole point of the OHA in the first place was to go after and CRUSH Apple and RIM. Android now has 8X% of the world market under its control, kinda makes the whole thing pointless these days, no?

    Andy Rubin left because he knew that Google lost control of Android with all of the fragmentation that was going on.

    What is real is Google Compatibility. Some say that the entire OHA was nothing more than Google to begin with. A vendor can do what they want with Android but if they want the Play Store then they got to play by Google's rules.

    Now if we want to go back in time to the Acer case, Google's official stance was that members could not build non-Android compatible handsets but could participate in competing ecosystems. BB10 is a competing ecosystem, so BlackBerry is cool there. The real question comes down to if ART on BB10 would, or could, qualify as Android compatible?

    And for anyone who thinks that Google is not aware of any of us "illegally" installing Play onto our BB10s, I got a bridge to sell you.





    There is Android Compatibility, which is a different discussion altogether, and then there is Google Compatibility. Google Compatibility came (or still does?) in two parts:

    1. In exchange for the Play Store app and G Services, the vendor must also prominently place GApps on the home screen. GApps in and of themselves are not Android, and as we all know are just means to further allow Google to collect your data.

    2. The vendor cannot impede in any way, shape, or form, Google's ability to collect data (hence, compatibility).

    However, in more recent times, Google has been looking to get Play onto as many devices as possible--but not necessarily on all Android devices. For example, Google is looking to put Play into automobile infotainment systems, television sets, smart watches, and so on; not all of which would be running Android or a form of Android. Google has been increasing the viability of Android apps on Chrome and the whole point of the Chrome/Android merger, if it comes to fruition, is to further expand Play's reach, not Android's. In fact, the dude who heads up Chrome, and now Android as well, believes Android itself to be an outdated concept.

    Anyways, my point is this: Google is now transitioning to move Play onto as many devices as possible, but not necessarily Android.

    Now, let's back up a minute: at the end of 2014 we learned that BlackBerry was going to work with Samsung on Knox. Then later in 2015 we learned that BlackBerry was going to work with Google on Android for Work. Somewhere in-between was MWC. Then we get the Priv and wala--it has Samsung's curved screen and Google's Play Store. My speculation is that BlackBerry was going with Android with or without Google/Play, yet it would have likely been an embarrassment for Google if BlackBerry were to release the Priv sans GApps and Play. Google used BlackBerry to help establish AfW as a viable option. Google is allowing BlackBerry to prove that an Android device can be secured beyond what we have seen up to this point. In exchange, Google allows BlackBerry Play without need to join the OHA. They are simply scratching each other's backs.

    And for what it is worth; ZTE and Xioami ship Android handsets sans Play/Google and ZTE is a known member. But perhaps there is an exception for some Asian markets?

    The Nook HD also got the Play Store. As far as I know Barnes and Noble are not OHA members.

    And then there is the BlackPhone 2. Members? Don't think so.
    Barnes & Noble is actually via Samsung. B&N ditched its fork of Android.

    Blackphone 2 did something to get compatible... I think Denver R figured it out IIRC.

    The two main points that have been mentioned as non-negotiable for GPS access are boot behavior and no simultaneous Android forks.

    Based on its most current device, BBRY is compatible.

    If a new BB10 device launches with the runtime, we can then say OHA proponents are wrong. For now? They seem quite correct.
    01-13-16 11:09 PM
  13. Vistaus's Avatar
    Android Runtime will probably not going to be updated. Even Samsung's Tizen does not have access to the Google play store.
    No, but it has Android Runtime optionally (just like SailfishOS).

    Posted via CB10 using BlackBerry Passport (OG Red)
    01-14-16 12:34 AM
  14. Vistaus's Avatar
    They tried that already, back in 2013 when they still had a bit more extra cash on hand (remember the BlackBerry Jam sessions back then?). They still got less than a quarter of the promised apps at launch, and it went downhill from there.

    And you think they have any chance of encouraging developers to build native apps now after BlackBerry has already said that further development of BB10 has effectively stopped - other than a few planned security updates over the next few months?

    Now, that is some serious wishful thinking.

    Posted via CB10
    Well, Nemory is developing a new Facebook app with major updates in Beta Zone every day, so not every dev has given up BB10.

    Posted via CB10 using BlackBerry Passport (OG Red)
    01-14-16 12:36 AM
  15. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    [thinking out loud, IMHO, FWIW, yada-yada]

    1/ When BB10 launched, I hated the ART. Because Google, because security, because junk apps.
    2/ I have to admit it was necessary evil (my bad)
    3/ Now that PRIV is on the market, I cannot reasonably understand the necessity of in house ART on BB10

    From there, wishful thinking :

    A/ Remove ART from 10.4
    B/ Grant - SELECTED - Third party VM software to run on BB10 with enough sys privileges (oh, the irony !)
    In short: do the "merge" we've been hearing of for a while. A pure BB10 device with third party (no OHA infringement) Android emulation/runtime.
    Don't have to be Google Services enabled, just up to date : We know how to "sideload" (either with software or alternative web sites), enterprises can push the APKs.
    Done ( <- that, of course is just plain stupid, but couldn't mute my Armchair CEO mini-me lol)
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 01-14-16 at 05:10 AM.
    01-14-16 04:06 AM
  16. Al moon's Avatar
    Why didn't blackberry offer from the get go top dollar to have certain apps developed? Seems like they were penny pinching and it cost them dearly.

    Posted via CB10
    01-14-16 08:41 AM
  17. conite's Avatar
    Why didn't blackberry offer from the get go top dollar to have certain apps developed? Seems like they were penny pinching and it cost them dearly.

    Posted via CB10
    Can't imagine that all Google, Microsoft, Netflix, Facebook, Mozilla, and Instagram wanted was a big cheque. What's a million dollars to any of them? Those are the ones they needed.
    Elephant_Canyon and JeepBB like this.
    01-14-16 08:50 AM
  18. anon(9742832)'s Avatar
    While I agree that Google is the big bad wolf. Its funny how the US Government goes after companies for Antitrust regulations. Except those it like or gets paid off by, Google parks billions overseas and pays very little in taxes, but the little guy with the account overseas is dragged through the mud.

    Many years ago the Feds broke up AT&T for the same reasons, A complete monopoly but that would never happen today as these Tec companies are the darlings of our government. Or should I say they get the best government money can buy!

    As for run time many of the apps have updated to the new run time with no problems at all.. The main reason for this is many app writers always follow the old Microsoft mantra, program to the lowest common system specs. Thus the apps will run on older systems but you will not get all of the changes. This is done because many phones will not update to Marshmallow at all, and in the end. Even with Google its about the money, no one wants to loose a paying client to a software update.

    Woof!
    01-14-16 08:52 AM
  19. anon(9742832)'s Avatar
    yup and yup!

    Woof!
    01-14-16 08:54 AM
  20. Al moon's Avatar
    Can't imagine that all Google, Microsoft, Netflix, Facebook, Mozilla, and Instagram wanted was a big cheque. What's a million dollars to any of them? Those are the ones they needed.
    Seems like somewhere somehow BlackBerry found away to screw something up I mean they have money and had money before BB10 came out so it wasn't a matter of cash.

    Posted via CB10
    01-14-16 09:04 AM
  21. conite's Avatar
    Seems like somewhere somehow BlackBerry found away to screw something up I mean they have money and had money before BB10 came out so it wasn't a matter of cash.

    Posted via CB10
    It was a matter of being way too late to the modern ecosystem war. Developers had already chosen to go with two by the time BB10 was anywhere near ready to launch.

    This is an excellent study in product life cycle. When iPhone and Android came along, BlackBerry had a mature platform that could not make the next leap. They had to develop from scratch.
    01-14-16 09:10 AM
  22. deadcowboy's Avatar
    No, but it has Android Runtime optionally (just like SailfishOS).

    Posted via CB10 using BlackBerry Passport (OG Red)
    would an optional Android runtime module comply with OHA requirements in BlackBerry's case?

    Posted via CB10
    01-14-16 09:37 AM
  23. Narhim's Avatar
    would an optional Android runtime module comply with OHA requirements in BlackBerry's case?

    Posted via CB10
    I could imagine an externally developed or independently created android runtime would not fall into the OHA. Similarly to ROMs developed for android... Now, would you find someone being able to do so but the BlackBerry programmers?
    How would it perform with the OS?
    Would it even run without being signed my BlackBerry?

    I have no clue tbh...

    Posted via CB10
    01-14-16 12:32 PM
  24. deadcowboy's Avatar
    does Samsung's Tizen have Android app support? i believe it's supposed to.

    Posted via CB10
    01-14-16 02:47 PM
  25. conite's Avatar
    does Samsung's Tizen have Android app support? i believe it's supposed to.

    Posted via CB10
    Not officially. You have to download OpenMobile's Application Compatibility Layer (ACL), which offers about a thousand apps or so.
    01-14-16 04:20 PM
63 123

Similar Threads

  1. Android Runtime Works Great
    By deadcowboy in forum BlackBerry Passport
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-03-16, 12:55 AM
  2. Software update to 10.3.2386
    By Tom Smith13 in forum BlackBerry Classic
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 01-14-16, 10:43 AM
  3. Update 10.3.2.2836 - Worth it or not?
    By Mustaf Mustafa in forum BlackBerry Q10
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-13-16, 01:28 AM
  4. Anyone seen this update 12 jan 2016
    By Powdah in forum General BlackBerry Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-12-16, 04:29 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD