1. EFats's Avatar
    It may not be as outrageous as you think.
    The OS/2 community (if you weren't aware, IBM EOL'd that way back in 2006) has been doing this for years and there have been some results. A new Chromium browser is quite close to complete now.

    I would imagine a lot of the apps that people ask for on mobile device are not nearly as complicated as that. Anything requiring 'private' API's from the various data suckage firms are obviously out of the question though.

    Unlike PC's though, we are hobbled by lack of new hardware. However I would guess there must be significantly more BB10 users than OS/2 users!
    I gather the organisation of such an endeavour would be a bit of a hurdle. Patreon? Any other options ?
    05-31-20 03:36 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    It may not be as outrageous as you think.
    The OS/2 community (if you weren't aware, IBM EOL'd that way back in 2006) has been doing this for years and there have been some results. A new Chromium browser is quite close to complete now.

    I would imagine a lot of the apps that people ask for on mobile device are not nearly as complicated as that. Anything requiring 'private' API's from the various data suckage firms are obviously out of the question though.

    Unlike PC's though, we are hobbled by lack of new hardware. However I would guess there must be significantly more BB10 users than OS/2 users!
    I gather the organisation of such an endeavour would be a bit of a hurdle. Patreon? Any other options ?
    There may be 100k-200k BB10 users still around.

    But there seems to be some hobbyist momentum lately to develop a few apps.

    What specifically are you looking for?
    05-31-20 04:14 PM
  3. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    It may not be as outrageous as you think.
    The OS/2 community (if you weren't aware, IBM EOL'd that way back in 2006) has been doing this for years and there have been some results. A new Chromium browser is quite close to complete now.

    I would imagine a lot of the apps that people ask for on mobile device are not nearly as complicated as that. Anything requiring 'private' API's from the various data suckage firms are obviously out of the question though.

    Unlike PC's though, we are hobbled by lack of new hardware. However I would guess there must be significantly more BB10 users than OS/2 users!
    I gather the organisation of such an endeavour would be a bit of a hurdle. Patreon? Any other options ?
    Options.... buy a devices that is supported.

    BlackBerry supposedly offered bounties for apps back before the lauch.... it didn't help then. I doubt the tiny community left would be able to offer up enough to interest those players. But yes within the allowed access, some things can be done. If companies leave their APIs open, then things like new Twitter and YouTube apps can be created. But not matter what you offer no one can do anything if older APIs have been blocked and only specific Apps are allow access to service.
    06-01-20 07:27 AM
  4. patrickjmquinn's Avatar
    Options.... buy a devices that is supported.

    BlackBerry supposedly offered bounties for apps back before the lauch.... it didn't help then. I doubt the tiny community left would be able to offer up enough to interest those players. But yes within the allowed access, some things can be done. If companies leave their APIs open, then things like new Twitter and YouTube apps can be created. But not matter what you offer no one can do anything if older APIs have been blocked and only specific Apps are allow access to service.
    I think if we're going to look at Blackberry's BB10 strategy with a critical eye its fairly obvious where they went wrong. They put out a wishy washy open bounty (they gave devs who applied a dev alpha) for devs to make apps and invest their time and effort into an unproven enterprise (their focus on enterprise was truly unattractive to devs who didn't personally fit this demographic) platform with the least intuitive development experience of the group. Besides investing more heavily into the developer experience, they should have worked closely with all of the big companies building the most popular B2C apps to bring their apps across and then that would have made BB10 a lot more attractive for the average consumer which in turn would have made the platform attractive to developers.

    Unfortunately, because of the aforementioned, BB10 is relegated to a hobbiest OS (as is OS/2, Haiku etc) which is to say there are plenty of people willing to build and support the platform, but few who will find commercial reasons to do so.

    So the TLDR; is we as a community can continue to build and incentivise development through bounties (similar to Haiku, React and so forth) etc but the amount of effort BB put into locking down the OS, the lack of any interest in opening up the work they did so we can continue the effort and the lack of new hardware will put a sizeable speed bump in our efforts. This wont stop those of us who have a desire to succeed from trying however, just makes things harder.

    /RANT
    06-01-20 12:50 PM
  5. PantherBlitz's Avatar
    Any further development would be for hobbyists by hobbyists. There really is no one left to pay for apps these days. Any enterprises with BB10 hardware would be more interested in migrating away from BB10 than in adding functions to legacy devices.

    The remaining BlackBerry fan base can't seem to find the funds to pay for subscriptions to the Hub Suite - so don't expect much from them. BlackBerry themselves found it not worth the effort to collect payment for BB10 apps so they took the process out of BB World.
    06-01-20 01:00 PM
  6. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I think if we're going to look at Blackberry's BB10 strategy with a critical eye its fairly obvious where they went wrong. They put out a wishy washy open bounty (they gave devs who applied a dev alpha) for devs to make apps and invest their time and effort into an unproven enterprise (their focus on enterprise was truly unattractive to devs who didn't personally fit this demographic) platform with the least intuitive development experience of the group. Besides investing more heavily into the developer experience, they should have worked closely with all of the big companies building the most popular B2C apps to bring their apps across and then that would have made BB10 a lot more attractive for the average consumer which in turn would have made the platform attractive to developers.

    Unfortunately, because of the aforementioned, BB10 is relegated to a hobbiest OS (as is OS/2, Haiku etc) which is to say there are plenty of people willing to build and support the platform, but few who will find commercial reasons to do so.

    So the TLDR; is we as a community can continue to build and incentivise development through bounties (similar to Haiku, React and so forth) etc but the amount of effort BB put into locking down the OS, the lack of any interest in opening up the work they did so we can continue the effort and the lack of new hardware will put a sizeable speed bump in our efforts. This wont stop those of us who have a desire to succeed from trying however, just makes things harder.

    /RANT
    They went wrong.... waiting till 2010, everything after that is semantics.

    But PlayBook was the beta product.... a lot of lessons were there for the learning. As far as the app ecosystem went.
    06-01-20 02:03 PM
  7. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Any further development would be for hobbyists by hobbyists. There really is no one left to pay for apps these days. Any enterprises with BB10 hardware would be more interested in migrating away from BB10 than in adding functions to legacy devices.

    The remaining BlackBerry fan base can't seem to find the funds to pay for subscriptions to the Hub Suite - so don't expect much from them. BlackBerry themselves found it not worth the effort to collect payment for BB10 apps so they took the process out of BB World.
    Yeah the one developer that hoped to monetize the BB10 fandom... with a BB10 launcher for Android. Found out there was no money to be made.

    Supporting BB10 at this point has to be a labor of love.... but still a labor and one more difficult due to the security.
    06-01-20 02:06 PM
  8. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    The only apps that people would be willing to pay for are "big name" apps that have closed APIs, which means you can't develop for them even if you wanted to.

    No one thing prevented BB10 from being a success - BB made dozens of key bad decisions, starting with the fact that they didn't IMMEDIATELY begin work on a new OS - which, IMO, would have still been "behind the 8 ball". January 9, 2007 was a Tuesday, and that was the date of the Keynote where the iPhone was announced (it shipped in Sept of that year). Nokia, Palm, Microsoft, and RIM all laughed at the iPhone's announcement and decided it was no threat to their established lines of business, for various reasons, and without looking any distance further into the future. Google, on the other hand, had an all-hands meeting of their Android team on Monday, January 15, 2007, where Andy Rubin announced that their "near-future" project, code-named "Sooner" and which looked a lot like a BB Bold, would be scrapped, and that all future development would be focused in the "distant future" project, code-named "Dream", which would be an all-touch-focused phone (though with a slide-out keyboard). Thus the HTC Dream (known in the US as the T-Mobile G1) was born. Google immediately saw and understood the potential of the iPhone, with a powerful modern browser and tight integration with cloud-based apps (of which Google already had the best-in-class), and they immediately focused on that solution. We all know what happened to the companies who failed to react quickly to the iPhone.

    Another of RIM's major problems is that Mike never cared for outside development and as a result RIM/BB never had good developer relations, tools, or programs. Devs made BB apps DESPITE BB, rather than WITH BB. Working with outside devs was NOT part of BB culture, and you simply can't build developer relationships in a year. Furthermore, BB was so behind with BB10 that, 6 months before the often-delayed launch of BB10, BB held a developer conference and instead of showing all the things the development platform could do, they wanted to know what developers wanted to see in a development platform - meaning: they had barely gotten anything together at that point, which is why they were scattered across 5 different development platforms at launch. Most devs understood the implications of this - certainly this was true of several big partnerships that were announced but never materialized - which was that BB didn't have a chance and was hopelessly behind, and that the war would be over before they even made it to the battlefield.

    Of course, Microsoft failed as well, despite spending more than twice as much, and despite already having a ton of excellent developers, but that was due more to timing (not reacting immediately to the iPhone), the wholesale "rebooting" of the platform several times which left tons of users stranded on old devices that couldn't be upgraded, and the fact that most developers understood that there was never going to be a viable "third place" finisher - if you weren't 1st or 2nd, you were dead. Developers simply don't want to support more than 2 platforms, and they don't especially care which ones those are, as long as the tools are good and the userbase is there.

    BB couldn't offer anyone anything they couldn't already get on a better-supported platform. Yes, you could argue that you could do some of those tasks better on BB10 (eventually!), but you could still get them done on other platforms - PLUS you could do a lot of additional things that you couldn't do on BB10. And that explains why BB sales dropped by 50% a year, every year, from 2009 to 2020. Without a must-have capability, there was little reason for most users to give up the capabilities of iOS and Android in trade for the Hub and Peak & Flow. Only die-hards made that choice, and there were fewer of them each year.
    Laura Knotek and elfabio80 like this.
    06-01-20 08:51 PM
  9. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar

    No one thing prevented BB10 from being a success - BB made dozens of key bad decisions, starting with the fact that they didn't IMMEDIATELY begin work on a new OS - which, IMO, would have still been "behind the 8 ball".
    Summer before the lauch, Kevin put out a Blog (can't find it anymore) of a list of things BlackBerry had to get "right" for the lauch to work. In the end BlackBerry failed to deliver on most of those....

    But even if they had nailed every one of them, it would have been an almost impossible prospect in 2013. They would have had a tough fight to carve out a place in a highly competitive market, with very little revenue to support their efforts.
    06-02-20 09:25 AM
  10. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Summer before the lauch, Kevin put out a Blog (can't find it anymore) of a list of things BlackBerry had to get "right" for the lauch to work. In the end BlackBerry failed to deliver on most of those....
    I remember that post well, and you are absolutely right: BB failed at nearly all of those points, even though they pushed back the launch 2 times, giving them an entire extra year - and this is with 5000 developers working on BB10, including people from Dan Dodge's QNX team.

    But your second point is correct: it's highly unlikely it would have mattered anyway, as 2013 was simply WAY too late. The battle was fought between 2008-2010, and by 2011, the war was really over and victors declared - by users and developers alike.
    06-02-20 12:33 PM
  11. Onthelinit1979's Avatar
    I remember that post well, and you are absolutely right: BB failed at nearly all of those points, even though they pushed back the launch 2 times, giving them an entire extra year - and this is with 5000 developers working on BB10, including people from Dan Dodge's QNX team.

    But your second point is correct: it's highly unlikely it would have mattered anyway, as 2013 was simply WAY too late. The battle was fought between 2008-2010, and by 2011, the war was really over and victors declared - by users and developers alike.
    Thanks for the well thought out analysis.

    I'll add that from a consumer point of view MS didn't give a *hit about what their current customers wanted. Regardless of the 'technical necessity' for the switch from WP7.5 to WP 8 making the Lumia 900 obsolete after a year was idiotic and proof MS didn't: care about their customers.

    In my mind, this is the reason for the WP fail. MS was used to telling their customers what they wanted and people left. It was a great platfom. Too bad.

    Sent from a Blackberry Passport
    06-05-20 07:02 AM
  12. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I'll add that from a consumer point of view MS didn't give a *hit about what their current customers wanted. Regardless of the 'technical necessity' for the switch from WP7.5 to WP 8 making the Lumia 900 obsolete after a year was idiotic and proof MS didn't: care about their customers.

    In my mind, this is the reason for the WP fail. MS was used to telling their customers what they wanted and people left. It was a great platfom. Too bad.
    MS had too many dependencies - the old WinCE-based WinMobile on the bottom end that was End-Of-Life and their plan to go to Win10 for everything on the top end. The problem is that there wasn't a straight line between the two, mostly because mobile hardware just wasn't ready for the heft of Windows at the time, so they had to make TWO completely different OSs in between - with distractions in trying to do tablets at the same time (Windows RT) - and there were simply too many opposing demands to do it right.
    06-05-20 10:48 AM
  13. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    MS had too many dependencies - the old WinCE-based WinMobile on the bottom end that was End-Of-Life and their plan to go to Win10 for everything on the top end. The problem is that there wasn't a straight line between the two, mostly because mobile hardware just wasn't ready for the heft of Windows at the time, so they had to make TWO completely different OSs in between - with distractions in trying to do tablets at the same time (Windows RT) - and there were simply too many opposing demands to do it right.
    Difference is those distractions have been profitable for MS.... Stocks at an all time high.

    Wasn't a make or break situation for them, as it was for BlackBerry. But was frustrating to see them fail, over and over an over. My first smartphone I wanted a Windows Mobile - actually was a Palm phone with Windows.... but 6 was just about to come out and existing phones weren't getting it. Sales people didn't recommend getting a Windows Mobile, and I followed their advise.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-05-20 12:00 PM
  14. Onthelinit1979's Avatar
    Difference is those distractions have been profitable for MS.... Stocks at an all time high.
    Not so. Sure the stock is high but MS but that's from profits from their enterprise and cloud business now. MS lost the consumer market years ago.

    Don't: forget they wrote off 8 billion after buying Nokia.


    Sent from a Blackberry Passport
    06-05-20 10:20 PM
  15. Sandeep Jain1's Avatar
    I'm sorry but I beg to differ... it's never to late to start... I think one of the primary reasons why people moved away from BlackBerry was because of the limited app portfolio.. The developers were no to keen to make apps for BB10 because BlackBerry was reluctance in sharing user information with aap developer. I just downloaded BBTube and Bird10 as examples the information which they need access to is like nothing compared to the information which an app needs access to when you download something from play store... I have user Android.. tried IPhone for a week... but the BB10 OS was way ahead of it's time... with the contact's app integration with LinkedIn and FB... the touch keyboard and the predictive typing of the on-screen keyboard... I still remember buying the Z10 it was just awesome... the gesture capabilities which it had was just awesome... I remember seeing a post where people did not like the fact that the phone did not have a home button like IPhone and Android... I have a lot more to say... I really hope that someday they bring BB10 back...
    06-07-20 04:24 PM
  16. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I'm sorry but I beg to differ... it's never to late to start... I think one of the primary reasons why people moved away from BlackBerry was because of the limited app portfolio.. The developers were no to keen to make apps for BB10 because BlackBerry was reluctance in sharing user information with aap developer. I just downloaded BBTube and Bird10 as examples the information which they need access to is like nothing compared to the information which an app needs access to when you download something from play store... I have user Android.. tried IPhone for a week... but the BB10 OS was way ahead of it's time... with the contact's app integration with LinkedIn and FB... the touch keyboard and the predictive typing of the on-screen keyboard... I still remember buying the Z10 it was just awesome... the gesture capabilities which it had was just awesome... I remember seeing a post where people did not like the fact that the phone did not have a home button like IPhone and Android... I have a lot more to say... I really hope that someday they bring BB10 back...
    Just find a backer that has as much cash as Microsoft but is willing to keep on losing it for practically forever. That’s why even they’ve gone Android themselves
    06-07-20 08:16 PM
  17. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Not so. Sure the stock is high but MS but that's from profits from their enterprise and cloud business now. MS lost the consumer market years ago.

    Don't: forget they wrote off 8 billion after buying Nokia.


    Sent from a Blackberry Passport
    I'm aware of what they wrote off and how things have gone for them in both the PC and the Smartphone markets... I'm sure they wish more people were buying new PC, and I'm sure they wish they had manged to carve out a #2 spot in the mobile business.

    But they are a diversified company.... and they are doing fine without them. And in the end that's all investors are concerned about.

    As for Bounty System.... it just won't work, Microsoft and BlackBerry already tried. At this point the userbase isn't worth what it had the potential for in 2013, and it's only going to decline from here.
    06-08-20 08:00 AM
  18. Gene Fells's Avatar
    Not so. Sure the stock is high but MS but that's from profits from their enterprise and cloud business now. MS lost the consumer market years ago.

    Don't: forget they wrote off 8 billion after buying Nokia.


    Sent from a Blackberry Passport
    It was a sad day when they pulled the pin on their phones but it was the correct decision. Why waste time and resources with a phone OS and hardware when you can make cloud based subscription software such as office 365 that nearly every company in the world uses.

    Nadella's background was cloud services and his sales pitch was obviously more successful and logical than continuing with a dead platform. Even now, Windows 10 is considered legacy as cloud services are taking over.

    O365 caters for all, including business and consumer.

    Posted via CB10
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-08-20 09:04 PM
  19. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    It was a sad day when they pulled the pin on their phones but it was the correct decision. Why waste time and resources with a phone OS and hardware when you can make cloud based subscription software such as office 365 that nearly every company in the world uses.

    Nadella's background was cloud services and his sales pitch was obviously more successful and logical than continuing with a dead platform. Even now, Windows 10 is considered legacy as cloud services are taking over.

    O365 caters for all, including business and consumer.

    Posted via CB10
    What's crazy is how big Amazon has gotten in Enterprise Cloud Services....

    Looking back.... BlackBerry should have focused more on software, back 10 years ago.
    elfabio80 and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-09-20 07:15 AM
  20. EFats's Avatar
    As for Bounty System.... it just won't work, Microsoft and BlackBerry already tried. At this point the userbase isn't worth what it had the potential for in 2013, and it's only going to decline from here.
    That's not a good answer as to why not. It seems to run, if slowly, for OS/2. There's no big corporation behind that. There's no profit from that endeavour. Just some volunteers, some people who like the hobby and a small cash 'reward' to get some people off their butts. Ain't nobody making a living from making apps for OS/2 but it somehow works.
    06-12-20 07:30 PM
  21. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    That's not a good answer as to why not. It seems to run, if slowly, for OS/2. There's no big corporation behind that. There's no profit from that endeavour. Just some volunteers, some people who like the hobby and a small cash 'reward' to get some people off their butts. Ain't nobody making a living from making apps for OS/2 but it somehow works.
    Are all those OS/2 users stuck on old branded hardware?

    Does OS/2 require that IBM keep servers up and running to provide activation for any new installations? (Company is failing.... and with COVID I'm not sure they have years to work things out)


    If you want to create some "reward" program for BB10 apps... go for it, there are lot's of "Fund Me" sites out there. And there are several developers trying to create "something" for the BB10 community. I have no doubt that they'd be interested in users funding their hobby.

    But I'd suggest that you get with some of those developer to get an understanding of what they can do, and what they can't.... as access to different company's services is becoming more difficult as security is tightened and support for Android 4.3 fades. And be willing to be the one devoting your own time to organizing all this....
    06-15-20 08:44 AM

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