[imcurved]

This is ridiculous. The thread title "Windows Phone failing miserably against BlackBerry" and original post has nothing in common with the quoted article.

Leave that aside for the moment. The author, who to his credit self-identified as a Nokia fanboy, cites six major problems with the Windows Phone platform.

If you were to read the article, five out the six problems are also BlackBerry problems. And arguably for these five, BlackBerry has the worst of it.

I agree. I thought I was reading about BlackBerry for a moment there until I got to Microsoft-Nokia partnership problem.

Post via CB Z10

[iN8ter]

First off, there's no need to be calling people names. This is a place of discussion and people are allowed to be missing parts of the puzzle. Second, this is what I was using as my understanding of data sense....

?The idea behind [Data Sense] is to ensure that you get the most out of your data plan,? Microsoft?s Joe Belfiore said in the infamously leaked internal Windows Phone 8 video from early 2012. ?The most important thing we?re doing is reducing the amount of data we use. We try to use Wi-Fi instead of cellular when we can ? We?re building a user experience that will help you understand and manage your data usage. And we?re building in a mechanism so that Windows Phone can be configured in many countries to have the cellular data automatically offloaded operator-owned Wi-Fi.?

Third, Microsoft says up to 45% but we all know what "up to" means. Finally, I have never used the cheap windows phones but I have a hard time believing that it would be on par with, or exceeding the experience of the ipod touch as a wifi only device. Of course, I could very well be wrong.



Posted via CB10

"Up To" means that some data compresses better than others. Text in a web page can be compressed to almost nothing, while images, video, and other data will not compress as well.

Go compress a text document and image of same size in 7-Zip on your PC and see how that works. The text will compress easily, because the data is quite simple. The images, not so much. It will require high compression levels (which are more CPU intensive) to get down to sizes that aren't even close to what a text file can compress to on a much less intensive compression setting.

That is why it's always Up To, and that's why they will not say something stupid like "Up to 80%." Because at that point the benefits of the compression become dubious as the quality of the data coming through will be so bad that it most people will not bother using it. Part of the reason people started hating BIS is because it destroyed the quality of media on websites in many cases. Fuzzy images, etc. Aggressive compression works well for businesses who are trying to save cash on data plans, etc. but it does not work well on consumer devices that people expect a better user experience on. Also, unlike BIS, you can toggle the compression in Internet Explorer off in Data Sense, for example.

Apart from the lack of a FFC (the $229 16GB iTouch 5 doesn't have a back camera, though, so $299 if you want that), the L520 is on par or better with every spec in the iTouch except for the Screen Resolution. The SoC in the Lumia 520 is better (iT5 uses the iPhone 4S' SoC). Storage is better (8GB but you can put in up to a 64GB SD Card and set the device to save/download all Picture, Video, Music, etc. to the Card and use the on-device storage for Apps and App Data, which should be enough for most people on a secondary PMP-type device as WP8 apps are generally a quite a bit smaller than equivalent iOS apps). The L520 has a GPS chip so it doesn't need WiFi for Location Data - Offline Mapping, as well. Better BT spec (and BT File Transfer), FM Radio (!!!) ... And of course with the way Skype works on WP8, it can make a pretty decent Soft Phone as well :-)

If you are willing to put up with the different ecosystem the device would function a bit better as a PMP/secondary device than the iTouch. The strength of the iTouch isn't really in the hardware, it's in the ecosystem - the hardware in those are always decidedly last gen.

Performance on WP8 is not a concern. It can run smoothly on 512 RAM without issues. WP7/7.5 could run smoothly on 256MB RAM, even. WP8 is as smooth as iOS. There really is no discernible difference between the two. In fact, as WP devices are updated, they tend to age a bit better in performance than iOS devices, without having to cut features out the way Apple does for its older phones. It is probably the best performing OS out there, with the ability to scale to middling specs with little to no performance loss. The only thing you'd be missing is compatibility with some of the larger apps that require a 1GB device, but nothing truly major - especially if this device is to be used as a replacement for an iTouch, you can potentially save a lot of money.

[RubberChicken76]

Actually, Windows Phone has taken over BlackBerry in 3rd place. BB is now 4th.

Will people stop repeating this myth!!!!! :-)

Windows Phone has shipped more devices than BlackBerry 10 has.

Windows Phone has shipped more devices than BlackBerry has in general so far this year.

There are not more Windows Phone users in the world than BlackBerry users.

To 'take third place', there would have to be more people using Windows Phones than BlackBerrys. There aren't. Not when Nokia has shipped less than 30 million Windows Phones to date and they make up more than four fifths of the market.

Not right now anyway. Could change. Hasn't yet.

[RubberChicken76]

You know that's just shipped units not sold??

Everybody quotes shipped not sold. Nokia. Apple. BlackBerry. This is such a goofy argument. No one can pile on millions of unsold units into the channel for long.

[szlevi]

Actually, Windows Phone has taken over BlackBerry in 3rd place. BB is now 4th.

Actually that's global market share, in the US WP isn't there yet. By all calculations it will pass BB in the US too by the end of this quarter but just hasn't done yet by the end of June, according to a not-so-solid comScore report: BlackBerry still beating Windows Phone market share in U.S. | CrackBerry.com

[RubberChicken76]

Back on the topic of Windows Phone. Will Windows Phone ever be "dead" as in like the speculation around Blackberry? It's possible; but, Microsoft is unlikely to give it up unless the company is in financial trouble or there is a solid plan B considering OSes are within Microsoft's primary industry/business.

They have to ride it out. Two pillars of Microsoft are what powers the company ... Windows and Office. Nothing else generates anywhere near the revenue or profit. For the first time, one of the pillars has a real credible threat that never existed before. Microsoft has gotten out of businesses before but this is what that I could see the board in for years at huge money losses if necessary. Because it's critical for the health of the company.

Even Nokia defecting will not kill off Windows Phone in the sense the OS is discontinued but merely take away significant market share.

Huge market share. Nokia makes up 80+% of the market. None of the other partners really seem to care much or put any stock. Hard to convince companies to pay for a license when Google doesn't charge you

[RubberChicken76]

Actually that's global market share, in the US WP isn't there yet. By all calculations it will pass BB in the US too by the end of this quarter but just hasn't done yet by the end of June, according to a not-so-solid comScore report: BlackBerry still beating Windows Phone market share in U.S. | CrackBerry.com

The issue comes down to the same thing: Journalists doing a crappy job of explaining what's being measured (or not explaining) and readers not understanding.

Depending on the study conducted, it can be quarterly shipments (IDC) of new devices, devices actively being used (Comscore), web traffic etc.

In the end though, Windows Phone is NOT the third largest ecosystem. It still has to grow substantially to catch up to the original BlackBerry OS in terms of raw # of users. And probably Symbian powered Smartphones as well.

But it is ahead of BlackBerry 10 and that's the major concern. It also has a lot of the key apps because of perceived possibility of growth.

[Gesig Boek]

The issue comes down to the same thing: Journalists doing a crappy job of explaining what's being measured (or not explaining) and readers not understanding.

Depending on the study conducted, it can be quarterly shipments (IDC) of new devices, devices actively being used (Comscore), web traffic etc.

In the end though, Windows Phone is NOT the third largest ecosystem. It still has to grow substantially to catch up to the original BlackBerry OS in terms of raw # of users. And probably Symbian powered Smartphones as well.

But it is ahead of BlackBerry 10 and that's the major concern. It also has a lot of the key apps because of perceived possibility of growth.

You know, if you are counting installed base, Symbian is still a much larger ecosystem than BB. Maybe thats why no-one counts that way except some here.

[sentimentGX4]

Will people stop repeating this myth!!!!! :-)

Windows Phone has shipped more devices than BlackBerry 10 has.

Windows Phone has shipped more devices than BlackBerry has in general so far this year.

There are not more Windows Phone users in the world than BlackBerry users.

To 'take third place', there would have to be more people using Windows Phones than BlackBerrys. There aren't. Not when Nokia has shipped less than 30 million Windows Phones to date and they make up more than four fifths of the market.

Not right now anyway. Could change. Hasn't yet.

I consider Windows Phone the 3rd largest "ecosystem"; but, not by any metric comparable to yours. I always found it awkward that people definite OS-ecosystem size by the number of users.

Let's begin by acknowledging that every OS is part of its ecosystem. For example, iOS is part of the iOS ecosystem. Now let's analyze the definition of ecosystem.

e�co�sys�tem (k-sstm, k-)
n.
An ecological community together with its environment, functioning as a unit

Do users function with the OS? No, users don't function with the OS! When people are discussing which "ecosystem" is better, they are discussing the apps or software. Software functions with the OS. Users don't have any direct impact on the OS whatsoever.

So, naturally, my definition of largest "ecosystem" describes the OS with the most software. Windows Phone is a part of a large ecosystem that includes Windows 8 OS. Windows 8 Metro has a not insignificant degree of interaction with Windows Phone. Calendar syncs. Contacts sync. Email sync. Shares many apps and a kernel.

Windows Phone also has more developer support than Blackberry and likely more apps as well. (Even if it doesn't have more apps, deduct the app spam and Windows Phone is larger again.)

"Ecosystem" should only be used to describe the diversity and/or volume apps and, even if in reference to the total number of ecosystem users, you should count a portion of the Windows 8 Metro GUI users a part of the "Windows Phone" ecosystem as well due to their interconnectivity.

What you're describing is the size of the OS userbase. Blackberry is the third largest OS, perhaps. But Blackberry is definitely not much of an "ecosystem". It contains only a smartphone with an app store in need of improvement. "Ecosystem" is one of the most commonly cited obstacles to Blackberry's success and people are not referring to the user base!

[RubberChicken76]

I consider Windows Phone the 3rd largest "ecosystem"; but, not by any metric comparable to yours. I always found it awkward that people definite OS-ecosystem size by the number of users.

Let's begin by acknowledging that every OS is part of its ecosystem. For example, iOS is part of the iOS ecosystem. Now let's analyze the definition of ecosystem.

Do users function with the OS? No, users don't function with the OS! When people are discussing which "ecosystem" is better, they are discussing the apps or software. Software functions with the OS. Users don't have any direct impact on the OS whatsoever.

So, naturally, my definition of largest "ecosystem" describes the OS with the most software. Windows Phone is a part of a large ecosystem that includes Windows 8 OS. Windows 8 Metro has a not insignificant degree of interaction with Windows Phone. Calendar syncs. Contacts sync. Email sync. Shares many apps and a kernel.

Windows Phone also has more developer support than Blackberry and likely more apps as well. (Even if it doesn't have more apps, deduct the app spam and Windows Phone is larger again.)

"Ecosystem" should only be used to describe the diversity and/or volume apps and, even if in reference to the total number of ecosystem users, you should count a portion of the Windows 8 Metro GUI users a part of the "Windows Phone" ecosystem as well due to their interconnectivity.

What you're describing is the size of the OS userbase. Blackberry is the third largest OS, perhaps. But Blackberry is definitely not much of an "ecosystem". It contains only a smartphone with an app store in need of improvement. "Ecosystem" is one of the most commonly cited obstacles to Blackberry's success and people are not referring to the user base!

I agree with your points

Posted via CB10

[12Danny123]

Everybody quotes shipped not sold. Nokia. Apple. BlackBerry. This is such a goofy argument. No one can pile on millions of unsold units into the channel for long.

Actually Nokia, Apple and Samsung all quoted Sold. Look at their reports

[dusdal]

Actually Nokia, Apple and Samsung all quoted Sold. Look at their reports

Hi Danny,

I won't dig into all three, but Nokia's most recent 10-Q can be found here http://www.results.nokia.com/results...lts2013Q2e.pdf

Even if you were to do a cursory search of the pdf you would find that the term 'sold' doesn't appear anywhere. The word 'shipped' does.

You may have been tricked by the fact that they quote net sales alongside 'unit volumes'. The net sales refers to a dollar value for the devices shipped and the volume of units refers to the number of units shipped.

They clarify this point on the second paragraph of page 11 of the document that I linked you to above. For good measure:

"Volume During the second quarter 2013 we shipped 53, 7 million Mobile Phones units of which 4.3 million were Asha full-touch smartphones.
During the second quarter 2013 we announced the new Asha 501 and started shipments in mid-June"

Hopefully this clears things up?

[sergey_IL]

Nokia Lumia 520 has awesome specs for the price, Same Snapdragon S4 processor as BB Z10, 512MB ram , 4Inch screen, 8GB flash memory plus card slot, decent 5MP camera and free Lifetime voice guided navigation with full offline support.

There is no way any OS7 phone can compete with the 520 specially at that price. The only way to compete with this is to lower the price of Q5 to $150-$200.

Actually not the same, Nokia: MSM8227, Z10 : MSM8960. Not to mention LTE, which adds much cost.

[Etios]

Actually not the same, Nokia: MSM8227, Z10 : MSM8960. Not to mention LTE, which adds much cost.

MSM8277 and MSM 8960 are both Qualcomm Snapdragon S4 Plus processors at 28nm.
It is exactly the same processor, only difference is clockspeed, i just mentioned the specs because somebody was babbling that Nokia Lumia 520 has poor specs.

[szlevi]

I consider Windows Phone the 3rd largest "ecosystem"; but, not by any metric comparable to yours. I always found it awkward that people definite OS-ecosystem size by the number of users.

Let's begin by acknowledging that every OS is part of its ecosystem. For example, iOS is part of the iOS ecosystem. Now let's analyze the definition of ecosystem.

Do users function with the OS? No, users don't function with the OS! When people are discussing which "ecosystem" is better, they are discussing the apps or software. Software functions with the OS. Users don't have any direct impact on the OS whatsoever.

So, naturally, my definition of largest "ecosystem" describes the OS with the most software. Windows Phone is a part of a large ecosystem that includes Windows 8 OS. Windows 8 Metro has a not insignificant degree of interaction with Windows Phone. Calendar syncs. Contacts sync. Email sync. Shares many apps and a kernel.

Windows Phone also has more developer support than Blackberry and likely more apps as well. (Even if it doesn't have more apps, deduct the app spam and Windows Phone is larger again.)

"Ecosystem" should only be used to describe the diversity and/or volume apps and, even if in reference to the total number of ecosystem users, you should count a portion of the Windows 8 Metro GUI users a part of the "Windows Phone" ecosystem as well due to their interconnectivity.

What you're describing is the size of the OS userbase. Blackberry is the third largest OS, perhaps. But Blackberry is definitely not much of an "ecosystem". It contains only a smartphone with an app store in need of improvement. "Ecosystem" is one of the most commonly cited obstacles to Blackberry's success and people are not referring to the user base!

Err, no.
MSFT has no ecosystem so far - as a.matter of fact this is the Ballmerian bureaucracy's biggest criminal offense, to so royally sabotage and **** up the execution of the all-encompassing Windows plan: NONE OF THE WINDOWS PLATFORMS ARE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER: unbelievably a Windows 8 tablet cannot run a Windows Phone 8 app and vica versa, and neither can run anything from a Windows 8 R(e)T(arded) device (the quintessential symbol of the Ballmerian lunacy.)
It's incredibly ******** but TRUE, thanks to Sinofsky, Ballmer, Belfiore and all the incompetent incumbent idiots at MSFT.

Having your own (useless) search engine (Bing) is NOT an ecosystem, neither is running a web collaboration platform (Outlook/Skydrive/365/whateveritscalledthismonth) with the industry's WORST RELIABILITY TRACK RECORD - as a matter of fact BB's high-end, global and most importantly SECURE mail/messaging network with worldwide POPs have a much better track record.

Being late to the party having an open platform and leveraging MULTIPLE SERVICE PLATFORMS AND ECOSYSTEMS is actually a.much smarter and BETTER plan for BB - for starter it dows not require me to throw away my Android investment (and.yes, it's the lesser.of two evils despite giving incentives for quick porting over writing native BB10 apps.)
BB10 can easily become popular with Google's collab suite while still offering some premium services for the.neterprise (MDM, encrypted-hosted communications etc) - if enough.handsets get into hands and stay there, I must add.
The last part is the key, this is where the TH-led BB so royally ****ed up its only chance by insisting on some laughably stupid 'premium pricing' scheme instead of flooding the market at $300 ASP...

...of course, considering his $56M walkaway package it was clearly not an accident: by preserving good cash-flow position, cost-cutting, no debt etc in the books BB is a much easier sell than a debt-ridden BB with little to no cash on hands, after a possibly failed flood-the-market attempt. He's just looking out for himself first, BB comes only second, nothing surprising to see here.

Sent from my LT30p using CB Forums mobile app

[12Danny123]

Err, no.
MSFT has no ecosystem so far - as a.matter of fact this is the Ballmerian bureaucracy's biggest criminal offense, to so royally sabotage and **** up the execution of the all-encompassing Windows plan: NONE OF THE WINDOWS PLATFORMS ARE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER: unbelievably a Windows 8 tablet cannot run a Windows Phone 8 app and vica versa, and neither can run anything from a Windows 8 R(e)T(arded) device (the quintessential symbol of the Ballmerian lunacy.)
It's incredibly ******** but TRUE, thanks to Sinofsky, Ballmer, Belfiore and all the incompetent incumbent idiots at MSFT.

Having your own (useless) search engine (Bing) is NOT an ecosystem, neither is running a web collaboration platform (Outlook/Skydrive/365/whateveritscalledthismonth) with the industry's WORST RELIABILITY TRACK RECORD - as a matter of fact BB's high-end, global and most importantly SECURE mail/messaging network with worldwide POPs have a much better track record.

Being late to the party having an open platform and leveraging MULTIPLE SERVICE PLATFORMS AND ECOSYSTEMS is actually a.much smarter and BETTER plan for BB - for starter it dows not require me to throw away my Android investment (and.yes, it's the lesser.of two evils despite giving incentives for quick porting over writing native BB10 apps.)
BB10 can easily become popular with Google's collab suite while still offering some premium services for the.neterprise (MDM, encrypted-hosted communications etc) - if enough.handsets get into hands and stay there, I must add.
The last part is the key, this is where the TH-led BB so royally ****ed up its only chance by insisting on some laughably stupid 'premium pricing' scheme instead of flooding the market at $300 ASP...

...of course, considering his $56M walkaway package it was clearly not an accident: by preserving good cash-flow position, cost-cutting, no debt etc in the books BB is a much easier sell than a debt-ridden BB with little to no cash on hands, after a possibly failed flood-the-market attempt. He's just looking out for himself first, BB comes only second, nothing surprising to see here.

Sent from my LT30p using CB Forums mobile app

You're basically saying google and apple don't have one either.

[Gesig Boek]

Err, no.
MSFT has no ecosystem so far - as a.matter of fact this is the Ballmerian bureaucracy's biggest criminal offense, to so royally sabotage and **** up the execution of the all-encompassing Windows plan: NONE OF THE WINDOWS PLATFORMS ARE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER: unbelievably a Windows 8 tablet cannot run a Windows Phone 8 app and vica versa, and neither can run anything from a Windows 8 R(e)T(arded) device (the quintessential symbol of the Ballmerian lunacy.)
It's incredibly ******** but TRUE, thanks to Sinofsky, Ballmer, Belfiore and all the incompetent incumbent idiots at MSFT.

Er, not quite. Take a picture with your Windows Phone and its automatically synced to the desktop via SkyDrive. Purchase music on your W8 machine and its automatically included in your phone library and available via streaming in Xbox Music. Start a Halo Spartan Assault game on your Windows RT tablet and finish it on your Windows Phone.

There's a lot more examples, but the short of it is that you are basically wrong.

[szlevi]

You're basically saying google and apple don't have one either.

No, it's the opposite for Google (much less for Apple but still true), however it's not that important at all to have your own browser, online apps, cloud storage system etc - read again.

Sent from my LT30p using CB Forums mobile app

[szlevi]

Er, not quite. Take a picture with your Windows Phone and its automatically synced to the desktop via SkyDrive. Purchase music on your W8 machine and its automatically included in your phone library and available via streaming in Xbox Music. Start a Halo Spartan Assault game on your Windows RT tablet and finish it on your Windows Phone.

There's a lot more examples, but the short of it is that you are basically wrong.

I take a picture on a Z10 and it gets synced to Dropbox, Google Drive etc. They are not only better at their services than Skydrive but FAR MORE POPULAR already.
Purchase music on Amazon, Google eyc and.you can access it on your phone, right away.
Your Windows RT game won't even run on a Windows Phone, forget Windows 8, unless you re-purchase it for EVERY MS PLATFORM OVER AND OVER AGAIN, it's a truly pathetic ripoff scheme, nothing else, the whole game sync point is idiotic when you realize this.

There are a lot more examples how it's really not only NOTHING UNIQUE to MSFT but beyond that the short.of.it is that.you're wrong: it is NOT a real ecosystem (a' la Android) and DEFINITELY has little to do with BB's craptastic past half a year.

Sent from my LT30p using CB Forums mobile app

[12Danny123]

I take a picture on a Z10 and it gets synced to Dropbox, Google Drive etc. They are not only better at their services than Skydrive but FAR MORE POPULAR already.
Purchase music on Amazon, Google eyc and.you can access it on your phone, right away.
Your Windows RT game won't even run on a Windows Phone, forget Windows 8, unless you re-purchase it for EVERY MS PLATFORM OVER AND OVER AGAIN, it's a truly pathetic ripoff scheme, nothing else, the whole game sync point is idiotic when you realize this.

There are a lot more examples how it's really not only NOTHING UNIQUE to MSFT but beyond that the short.of.it is that.you're wrong: it is NOT a real ecosystem (a' la Android) and DEFINITELY has little to do with BB's craptastic past half a year.

Sent from my LT30p using CB Forums mobile app

Dude it takes years to scale apps from the PC to a phone. Its very difficult.t therefore that's the reason why they can't put purchases together. They're doing one platform vision. And it seems to be doing fine. Also the store on windows RT and windows 8 are all the same. So purchases can be made on both. From tablet to desktop Apple or Google can't do that because they have different stores. They're just different ways on running things

[szlevi]

Dude it takes years to scale apps from the PC to a phone. Its very difficult.t therefore that's the reason why they can't put purchases together. They're doing one platform vision. And it seems to be doing fine. Also the store on windows RT and windows 8 are all the same. So purchases can be made on both. From tablet to desktop Apple or Google can't do that because they have different stores. They're just different ways on running things

You don't even understand my points... no offense but you have idea what you're talking about - please, look up at least the basics on programming/application development eg binary compatibility, platform, compiler etc. Once you got the basics we can have a meaningful debate.
As for MSFT doing fine... "one platform vision" - yeah, one platform, for EACH DEVICE, sure.
Doing fine, my @ss - that's why Windows 8 is their biggest flop EVER, not to mention that $900M+ writedown thanks to the utter failure of Windows RT (and a tad of Windows 8 tablets in general), advertised at a cost of $2 BILLION... did I mention Wall St cheered the news of Ballmer's exit with a 9% jump?
All this is aside of the fact that they have lost 36% of their stock value since Ballmer took office in January 2000, completely lost the online search engine and related wars, their cloud services offerings are years behind everybody and suffer hour-long outages worldwide multiple times a year, they managed to destroy their own smartphone business and seeing sharply declining sales on desktop Windows. As for Windows Phone: after sinking BILLIONS into it they are still barely beating BlackBerry, a manufacturer who didn't even bring out its much-touted new OS for ~3 years while WP kept coming with one non-upgradable, crippled version after another. WP is a disaster - but it's not so much of a surprise, it's run by ex-UI-guy Belfiore, the ***** Ballmerian golden boy who managed to sink the very promising Media Center into oblivion, then helped to make Zune what it became (an utter failure) and screwing up Windows Phone ever since...

...like always, for a real Ballmerian golden boy there's no way to screw up so hard that you won't get promoted at MSFT.

PS: Microsoft doubts set to exist post-Ballmer - http://www.ft.com/cms/638de3ac-0d96-...44feabdc0.html

[Gesig Boek]

I take a picture on a Z10 and it gets synced to Dropbox, Google Drive etc. They are not only better at their services than Skydrive but FAR MORE POPULAR already.
Purchase music on Amazon, Google eyc and.you can access it on your phone, right away.
Your Windows RT game won't even run on a Windows Phone, forget Windows 8, unless you re-purchase it for EVERY MS PLATFORM OVER AND OVER AGAIN, it's a truly pathetic ripoff scheme, nothing else, the whole game sync point is idiotic when you realize this.

There are a lot more examples how it's really not only NOTHING UNIQUE to MSFT but beyond that the short.of.it is that.you're wrong: it is NOT a real ecosystem (a' la Android) and DEFINITELY has little to do with BB's craptastic past half a year.

Sent from my LT30p using CB Forums mobile app

If you dont own the pieces of your ecosystem (e.g. google drive or dropbox) you are pretty vulnerable if they change their policies.

Just because you dont think its a very good ecosystem does not mean its not real. You seem very excited about this simple fact. No-one said they had the best one, but all of the ecosystems (Google MS, Apple) have holes in them that are slowly being filed.

[szlevi]

If you dont own the pieces of your ecosystem (e.g. google drive or dropbox) you are pretty vulnerable if they change their policies.

Hence BB supports all of them. Best decision they ever made, to not to waste money on building an N+1 closed cloud platform and services that mimics the subset of Google etc, a decade too late already.

When you have choices and a userbase it's impossible to blackmail you. Also you can establish partnerships, with incentives, contracts etc.

By your logic everyone should build their own silo'd services... the worst possible world for us, customers.

Just because you dont think its a very good ecosystem does not mean its not real. You seem very excited about this simple fact. No-one said they had the best one, but all of the ecosystems (Google MS, Apple) have holes in them that are slowly being filed.

Again, the very basics are missing: binary compatibility, reliability, interoperability, crippled features hoping to protect desktop revenues etc etc. Classic, utterly clueless, broken Ballmerian committee design.

Sent from my LT30p using CB Forums mobile app

[pkcable]

Disagree without being disagreeable! Or else you BOTH will get infractions!

[RubberChicken76]

Actually Nokia, Apple and Samsung all quoted Sold. Look at their reports

You can look up Apple's definition of revenue recognition yourself.

Here's the 10-K

Apple Inc. - Annual Report

Page 26, revenue recognition.

Revenue Recognition

Net sales consist primarily of revenue from the sale of hardware, software, digital content and applications, peripherals, and service and support contracts. The Company recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of the Company’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, the Company defers revenue until the customer receives the product because the Company retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit. The Company recognizes revenue from the sale of hardware products,