10-05-13 02:52 AM
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  1. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Re: TH pay package, it's SOP. I'm not saying it's not obscene for a guy to totally screw things up the way he has and get +$50MM as a golden handshake on the way out the door, but that's the way it is in the corporate world.
    Elop's is only $25.5M, while Nokia is 6x the value of BBRY, and Elop has been CEO quite a bit longer than Heins (not that longevity makes any difference). With a company in as much trouble as BBRY is and has been, $55.6M seems a little out of line. The fact is, Heins was completely ineffective in virtually all aspects of his responsibilities except for one: making the company an attractive and cheap buy.

    So maybe an inside conspiracy theory might be a little far-fetched; but so many things conveniently went wrong for everything fell into place to make a bid by only one suitor materialize, particularly when there has been virtually no interest from anywhere else until now. Conspiracy might be a strong term, but I find it very hard to believe that this wasn't the intended end-game possibly as far back as the time Heins was put in 21 months ago. In fact, I can even see that as the main reason behind him replacing Lazaridis and Sillyballs -- and that is completely understanding how ineffective the latter two had become by that time.
    abwan11 likes this.
    09-26-13 03:44 PM
  2. icedkermit's Avatar
    Typically, layoff announcements have the effect of buoying up stock price.
    Not true. It depends on the context and in this instance, it's highly negative because it puts the viability of the business into question.
    09-26-13 03:56 PM
  3. EchoTango's Avatar
    You guys predicting lawsuits are aware that Barbera Stymiest used to run the TSX, right? You're aware of her CV? If all of us were gathered together with her, she'd be the smartest person in the room, I assure you. Do you really think that she would let anything pass which might be indictable? I can assure you that everything that was done was legal. As was pointed out by danprown earlier, the only thing that will be shown in this case is mismanagement, not malfeasance.

    Your problem is that the system is set up in such a way as to allow big players in situations like this to make lots of money with common stock holders left holding the bag. Shenanigans? Sure. Ilegal? Sorry.

    Re: TH pay package, it's SOP. I'm not saying it's not obscene for a guy to totally screw things up the way he has and get +$50MM as a golden handshake on the way out the door, but that's the way it is in the corporate world.
    Do you think Bernie Madoff knew securities law and yet he's in jail. People get so caught up in their own entitlement and self-interest that they try to make things work, even if it falls foul of the law.

    In this case its known as shareholder oppression. This is where certain shareholder value are impaired and others are not. I think its clear, Fairfax has received preferential access and treatment that is quite different from the regular shareholders. Im fully aware of Prem Watsas Board seat and his subsequent resignation, but Im convinced there was improper conduct during the period before and after the offer.

    I do agree that proving it will be the tricky bit..
    09-26-13 04:08 PM
  4. mset's Avatar
    Elop's is only $25.5M, while Nokia is 6x the value of BBRY, and Elop has been CEO quite a bit longer than Heins (not that longevity makes any difference). With a company in as much trouble as BBRY is and has been, $55.6M seems a little out of line....

    So maybe an inside conspiracy theory might be a little far-fetched.... .
    Sure, it seems out of line in retrospect, but that contract was signed what, 2 years ago? More?

    Insider conspiracy far-fetched? Insiders are always conspiring to make ridiculously huge amounts of money. The assumption that something illegal happened? That's wishful thinking. Again, all their moves are programmed into the system, codified by laws.
    09-26-13 06:32 PM
  5. sosumi11's Avatar
    BBRY Board and Executives behavior is appalling and Barbara Stymeist and the rest of the Board need to be held accountable. I plan on joining whoever launches the first lawsuit.
    Investing in any stock is done at your own risk. Have you even read BlackBerry's disclosures at the end of every financial report?

    This news release contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of the U.S. Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 and Canadian securities laws, including statements regarding: BlackBerrys expectations regarding new product initiatives and timing, including the BlackBerry 10 platform; BlackBerrys plans and expectations regarding new service offerings, and assumptions regarding its service revenue model; BlackBerrys plans, strategies and objectives, and the anticipated opportunities and challenges in fiscal 2014; anticipated demand for, and BlackBerrys plans and expectations relating to, programs to drive sell-through of the Companys BlackBerry 7 and 10 smartphones and BlackBerry PlayBook tablets; BlackBerrys expectations regarding financial results for the second quarter of fiscal 2014; BlackBerrys expectations with respect to the sufficiency of its financial resources; BlackBerrys ongoing efforts to streamline its operations and its expectations relating to the benefits of its Cost Optimization and Resource Efficiency (CORE) program and similar strategies; BlackBerrys plans and expectations regarding marketing and promotional programs; and BlackBerrys estimates of purchase obligations and other contractual commitments. The terms and phrases expects, believe, focused, getting, opportunities, we are seeing, continuing, drive, improve, should, will, increasing, anticipated, and similar terms and phrases are intended to identify these forward-looking statements. Forward-looking statements are based on estimates and assumptions made by BlackBerry in light of its experience and its perception of historical trends, current conditions and expected future developments, as well as other factors that BlackBerry believes are appropriate in the circumstances, including but not limited to the launch timing and success of products based on the BlackBerry 10 platform, general economic conditions, product pricing levels and competitive intensity, supply constraints, BlackBerrys expectations regarding its business, strategy, opportunities and prospects, including its ability to implement meaningful changes to address its business challenges, and BlackBerrys expectations regarding the cash flow generation of its business. Many factors could cause BlackBerrys actual results, performance or achievements to differ materially from those expressed or implied by the forward-looking statements, including, without limitation: BlackBerrys ability to enhance ts current products and services, or develop new products and services in a timely manner or at competitive prices, including risks related to new product introductions; risks related to BlackBerrys ability to mitigate the impact of the anticipated decline in BlackBerrys infrastructure access fees on its consolidated revenue by developing an integrated services and software offering; intense competition, rapid change and significant strategic alliances within BlackBerrys industry; BlackBerrys reliance on carrier partners and distributors; risks associated with BlackBerrys foreign operations, including risks related to recent political and economic developments in Venezuela and the impact of foreign currency restrictions; risks relating to network disruptions and other business interruptions, including costs, potential liabilities, lost revenues and reputational damage associated with service interruptions; risks related to BlackBerrys ability to implement and to realize the anticipated benefits of its CORE program; BlackBerrys ability to maintain or increase its cash balance; security risks; BlackBerrys ability to attract and retain key personnel; risks related to intellectual property rights; BlackBerrys ability to expand and manage BlackBerry WorldTM; risks related to the collection, storage, transmission, use and disclosure of confidential and personal information; BlackBerrys ability to manage inventory and asset risk; BlackBerrys reliance on suppliers of functional components for its products and risks relating to its supply chain; BlackBerrys ability to obtain rights to use software or components supplied by third parties; BlackBerrys ability to successfully maintain and enhance its brand; risks related to government regulations, including regulations relating to encryption technology; BlackBerrys ability to continue to adapt to recent board and management changes and headcount reductions; reliance on strategic alliances with third-party network infrastructure developers, software platform vendors and service platform vendors; BlackBerrys reliance on third-party manufacturers; potential defects and vulnerabilities in BlackBerrys products; risks related to litigation, including litigation claims arising from BlackBerrys practice of providing forward-looking guidance; potential charges relating to the impairment of intangible assets recorded on BlackBerrys balance sheet; risks as a result of actions of activist shareholders; government regulation of wireless spectrum and radio frequencies; risks related to economic and geopolitical conditions; risks associated with acquisitions; foreign exchange risks; and difficulties in forecasting BlackBerrys financial results given the rapid technological changes, evolving industry standards, intense competition and short product life cycles that characterize the wireless communications industry. These risk factors and others relating to BlackBerry are discussed in greater detail in the Risk Factors section of BlackBerrys Annual Information Form, which is included in its Annual Report on Form 40-F and the Cautionary Note Regarding Forward-Looking Statements section of BlackBerrys MD&A (copies of which filings may be obtained at Welcome to the SEDAR Web Site / Bienvenue au Site Web SEDAR or U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission | Homepage). These factors should be considered carefully, and readers should not place undue reliance on BlackBerrys forward- looking statements. BlackBerry has no intention and undertakes no obligation to update or revise any forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise, except as required by law.
    09-26-13 06:41 PM
  6. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Sure, it seems out of line in retrospect, but that contract was signed what, 2 years ago? More?

    Insider conspiracy far-fetched? Insiders are always conspiring to make ridiculously huge amounts of money. The assumption that something illegal happened? That's wishful thinking. Again, all their moves are programmed into the system, codified by laws.
    Nope. First off, he only took the job in January 2012. But most of all, his compensation was just boosted this past May. Illegal, maybe not. But how it was done and who was involved seems to be getting the attention of a few outsiders.

    BlackBerry's Heins, Fairfax's Watsa and the $55 million handshake - Yahoo Finance
    09-26-13 06:57 PM
  7. mset's Avatar
    Do you think Bernie Madoff knew securities law and yet he's in jail....

    I do agree that proving it will be the tricky bit..
    Again, you're reaching a loooong ways. Barbara Stymiest isn't Bernie Madoff, and there is about a 0.001% chance that she did anything wrong. The typical fan boy response to this fact?

    'How do you know? You don't know that!'

    Proving it won't be tricky, it will be impossible. Because there's nothing to prove. Again, I'm not saying the system isn't rigged to benefit insiders, just that there isn't anything illegal about what has occurred.
    09-26-13 07:49 PM
  8. mset's Avatar
    Nope. First off, he only took the job in January 2012. But most of all, his compensation was just boosted this past May. Illegal, maybe not. But how it was done and who was involved seems to be getting the attention of a few outsiders.
    If he took the job in January, 2012, the contract was negotiated two years ago, as I suggested.

    There are a few examples of activist shareholders trying to claw back outrageous executive compensation as a matter of principle (not law). I don't think it works out very well.
    09-26-13 07:55 PM
  9. sleepngbear's Avatar
    If he took the job in January, 2012, the contract was negotiated two years ago, as I suggested.

    There are a few examples of activist shareholders trying to claw back outrageous executive compensation as a matter of principle (not law). I don't think it works out very well.
    Read the whole post -- TH's compensation was renegotiated this past May, just four months ago, including the bonus for losing his job due to a sale being tripled from what it originally was. This while the stock price already was a good bit lower than it was when he first took the job.
    09-26-13 08:20 PM
  10. kfh227's Avatar
    I'm pissed to the point of being lead plaintiff.

    Posted via CB10
    09-26-13 08:32 PM
  11. abwan11's Avatar
    They have been conducting a strategic review for quite some time, for them to have had a plan A and a plan B is a given, I want to know what is in plan B. Thorstens talks in code, like he's speaking to the drywall or something, that's why people know they're trying to hide things. It has been like this since 2011, when things started to turn bad, they just let it slide, no defense, no plan, no nothing, then they started with excuses, and on and on it went, as if it was planned.

    They knew they could never cash out at 80 billion, not in a sale, so how do you go about cashing in without cashing out?hedge your positions and let it slide, that's what has gone on here, and that's why they sat back and just watched. Then when it reached bottom, they risked nothing to start again, except shareholders. If the new BlackBerry failed, then Plan B, take it private and ride off in the sunset.
    Last edited by abwan11; 09-26-13 at 09:11 PM.
    09-26-13 08:46 PM
  12. mset's Avatar
    Read the whole post -- TH's compensation was renegotiated this past May, just four months ago, including the bonus for losing his job due to a sale being tripled from what it originally was. This while the stock price already was a good bit lower than it was when he first took the job.
    Actually, you're right. My apologies. I read the post but got distracted and left the response window open, came back to respond, and neglected that part.

    That's ridiculous for sure. Again, though, the chances that a person of Stymiest's stature knowingly signed off on something illegal are so low that the only possibility is that if something illegal happened, she wasn't aware or involved. She's the creme de la creme of the Canadian business community, and the smartest person in the room. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am not arguing that these deals aren't obscene, I'm just saying that there's an extremely low chance of criminal charges.
    09-26-13 08:47 PM
  13. icedkermit's Avatar
    Actually, you're right. My apologies. I read the post but got distracted and left the response window open, came back to respond, and neglected that part.

    That's ridiculous for sure. Again, though, the chances that a person of Stymiest's stature knowingly signed off on something illegal are so low that the only possibility is that if something illegal happened, she wasn't aware or involved. She's the creme de la creme of the Canadian business community, and the smartest person in the room. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am not arguing that these deals aren't obscene, I'm just saying that there's an extremely low chance of criminal charges.
    In legal jargon, I agree, not criminal and unlikely illegal, but I do believe agreements were a violation of the boards fiduciary duty to shareholders and on that basis I believe there are grounds for a lawsuit.

    And Stymiest is anything but creme de la creme. She's in over her head and should of never accepted the position. Her inability to open doors in the us for executives, hiring frank in marketing, lack of strategic partnerships all fall on her plate. Don't agree, go read AIF on chair responsabilities.

    By the way the other company she was in charge of, the TMX, was acquired because of its inability to compete. Note how after it was acquired, she was no longer involved. Not a coincidence.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by icedkermit; 09-26-13 at 10:08 PM.
    09-26-13 09:54 PM
  14. icedkermit's Avatar
    Investing in any stock is done at your own risk. Have you even read BlackBerry's disclosures at the end of every financial report?
    I read this crap all the time. And I get there are risks. Move on. Go read their annual information form and management information forms that describe compensation. That's what I'm offended by. That, and their abject failure in execution while leading shareholders to believe the launch was going well. How often did we hear that the z10 and q10 were ahead of target?

    Posted via CB10
    09-26-13 09:58 PM
  15. ray689's Avatar
    I read this crap all the time. And I get there are risks. Move on. Go read their annual information form and management information forms that describe compensation. That's what I'm offended by. That, and their abject failure in execution while leading shareholders to believe the launch was going well. How often did we hear that the z10 and q10 were ahead of target?

    Posted via CB10
    Yup best BlackBerry launch and sales ever I believe they would say.

    Posted via CB10
    09-26-13 10:15 PM
  16. mset's Avatar

    And Stymiest is anything but creme de la creme. She's in over her head and should of [SIC] never accepted the position.
    Yes, anything but...

    Forbes 400
    World's Most Powerful Women

    Barbara Stymiest

    Ms. Stymiest, 56, has served as a director of the Company since March 2007 and has been the Chair of the Company since January 2012. She has an H.B.A. from the Richard Ivey School of Business, University of Western Ontario and an FCPA from the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Ontario. Ms. Stymiest is currently a corporate director. From 2004 to 2011, Ms. Stymiest was a member of the Group Executive of the Royal Bank of Canada which is responsible for the Banks overall strategic direction. Prior to that, she held positions as Chief Executive Officer at TSX Group Inc., Executive Vice-President and Chief Financial Officer at BMO Nesbitt Burns and Partner of Ernst & Young LLP. Ms. Stymiest is currently a director of George Weston Limited, Sun Life Financial Inc., University Health Network, and the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research. She has also served on a number of professional and charitable organizations including the Canadian Institute for Chartered Accountants Accounting Oversight Committee, United Way Campaign Cabinet and the Royal Ontario Museum.

    As CEO of the Toronto Stock Exchange...The TSX went public during her tenure and its market capitalization grew by 20 per cent.

    Barbara Stymiest - Forbes

    Who is Barbara Stymiest? | Toronto Star
    Last edited by mset; 09-26-13 at 10:46 PM.
    09-26-13 10:20 PM
  17. sosumi11's Avatar
    I read this crap all the time. And I get there are risks. Move on. Go read their annual information form and management information forms that describe compensation. That's what I'm offended by. That, and their abject failure in execution while leading shareholders to believe the launch was going well. How often did we hear that the z10 and q10 were ahead of target?
    Uhh, and what was the "target"?

    BlackBerry's numbers were always grim.
    You cannot sue a company for reporting bad numbers but painting a rosier picture with rhetoric.

    BlackBerry's situation was somewhat hidden because of GAAP accounting methods which meant that each sale made on a given month would be counted 1/24 for each month for the next two years. This was because of the subscription services that cell phones used. And it also hid any peaks and valleys of product launches or slumps. Once the 24 month period caught up with the real time sales (2009 sales in 2011), that's when the poor sales numbers were magically appearing. RIM (BlackBerry) thought that by 2012 they would have their new operating system up and running and they wouldn't miss a beat.

    They were wrong.

    It all comes down to due diligence.

    Enron told shareholders everything was fine and even faked the numbers to back it up.
    That's a different story and $7 billion was awarded to shareholders.
    09-27-13 01:43 AM
  18. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Actually, you're right. My apologies. I read the post but got distracted and left the response window open, came back to respond, and neglected that part.

    That's ridiculous for sure. Again, though, the chances that a person of Stymiest's stature knowingly signed off on something illegal are so low that the only possibility is that if something illegal happened, she wasn't aware or involved. She's the creme de la creme of the Canadian business community, and the smartest person in the room. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am not arguing that these deals aren't obscene, I'm just saying that there's an extremely low chance of criminal charges.
    I agree it may not be illegal, but that has little bearing in a civil matter. All a plaintiff needs to do is to demonstrate that they were harmed, and that the defendant(s) they have named was responsible for it. It doesn't have to involve illegal activities, although that would certainly help the plaintiff's case. Then it's up to a judge or jury to determine how much harm was done, how much of that harm was the responsibility of the defendant, and finally if and how much the plaintiff should be compensated. Difficult to prove, yes -- especially as tangled as GAAP let's the books get; and many times it's just ticked off investors blowing off steam. But I've seen weaker cases than this make it to the courtroom.
    09-27-13 06:52 AM
  19. BB10FTW's Avatar
    If you're trying to make me feel sorry for Thorsten Heins, you've failed. He's been a mdiocre executive tor several years and for you to argue the 55 million has no impact on his thought process, is delusional. Although he sounds like a robot, he's still human, with human emotions. As a CEO of a high profile company he needs help have thick skin and should be capable of defending the company and himself - neither of which he's done a good job of.

    I acknowledge he inherited a tough situation, but he shouldn't have accepted the position if he wasn't up for it. And I'm tired a people wanting only upside without any downside responsibility. I would have no problem with him getting 100 million if hus turn around plan had worked, but it hasn't and he shouldn't be getting compensated for that.

    I'm not attacking because the stock is garbage, I'm commenting because of the multiple strategic failures, miss executions, job losses. Your defense of him is pathetic and ignorant.

    Posted via CB10
    Obviously the thought if getting 55 million would delight anyone but my point is that I highly doubt he delighted in the things he had to announce and do to get that 55 million. I'm not being ignorant to the situation, it's a complete gong show. All I was stating is that I find it sick to assume that Thorsten killed BlackBerry for financial gain. If he did and it's proven than I will change my thinking but assumptions don't prove anything. BlackBerry failed, they screwed up gar to many times and now they are paying the full price for that failure. Shareholders do deserve more answers but if you bought BlackBerry stock and didn't take into consideration how volatile it is than that's on you.

    Posted via CB10
    09-27-13 10:03 AM
  20. icedkermit's Avatar
    Obviously the thought if getting 55 million would delight anyone but my point is that I highly doubt he delighted in the things he had to announce and do to get that 55 million. I'm not being ignorant to the situation, it's a complete gong show. All I was stating is that I find it sick to assume that Thorsten killed BlackBerry for financial gain. If he did and it's proven than I will change my thinking but assumptions don't prove anything. BlackBerry failed, they screwed up gar to many times and now they are paying the full price for that failure. Shareholders do deserve more answers but if you bought BlackBerry stock and didn't take into consideration how volatile it is than that's on you.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree with you in that I don't think Thorsten destroyed BlackBerry for financial gain - what's not reported very well is that his payout would have been over $100 million if the takeout had happened over $20/share. I do find it suspicious that his pay package was renegotiated earlier this year, with a lot of it up front and Prem Watsa was one of the negotiators on the board.

    Nevertheless, there's absolutely a case against the board for their abject failure in properly overseeing this company.
    09-27-13 10:43 AM
  21. icedkermit's Avatar
    Yes, anything but...

    Forbes 400
    World's Most Powerful Women

    Barbara Stymiest

    Ms. Stymiest, 56, has served as a director of the Company since March 2007 and has been the Chair of the Company since January 2012. She has an H.B.A. from the Richard Ivey School of Business, University of Western Ontario and an FCPA from the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Ontario. Ms. Stymiest is currently a corporate director. From 2004 to 2011, Ms. Stymiest was a member of the Group Executive of the Royal Bank of Canada which is responsible for the Banks overall strategic direction. Prior to that, she held positions as Chief Executive Officer at TSX Group Inc., Executive Vice-President and Chief Financial Officer at BMO Nesbitt Burns and Partner of Ernst & Young LLP. Ms. Stymiest is currently a director of George Weston Limited, Sun Life Financial Inc., University Health Network, and the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research. She has also served on a number of professional and charitable organizations including the Canadian Institute for Chartered Accountants Accounting Oversight Committee, United Way Campaign Cabinet and the Royal Ontario Museum.

    As CEO of the Toronto Stock Exchange...The TSX went public during her tenure and its market capitalization grew by 20 per cent.

    Barbara Stymiest - Forbes

    Who is Barbara Stymiest? | Toronto Star
    That's precisely my problem - she has all this power crap going to her head. You can't argue with her education or raw intellect. I don't care how many awards Barbara Stymiest has won either. John Roth, Bernie Ebbers and many others have won accolades that were anything but deserved.

    My point is she's the wrong person to be leading what is a turnaround situation in one of the most competitive markets in the world. As for the TMX, I'm not sure where you get its market cap growing by 20%, but that's not a huge number. Jack Welch grew GE by several thousand percent.
    09-27-13 10:47 AM
  22. Duffman19's Avatar
    You guys made bad investments. Tough luck

    Posted via CB10
    09-27-13 01:03 PM
  23. mset's Avatar
    I agree it may not be illegal, but that has little bearing in a civil matter. But I've seen weaker cases than this make it to the courtroom.
    Let me ask you, are you Canadian? This sounds possible in theory in the USA. If you're from Canada, can you provide me one example in the history of Canadian law where a corporate director or executive was successfully sued in civil court over an event which took place as a result of a corporate takeover? I'm not saying one doesn't exist, I just can't think of one and I've followed Canadian business stories for a while.
    09-27-13 01:38 PM
  24. mset's Avatar
    That's precisely my problem - she has all this power crap going to her head. You can't argue with her education or raw intellect.
    They almost all have that power crap going to their heads at her (nosebleed) level.

    Plus she's a 12 handicap! Come on now!

    That'sMy point is she's the wrong person to be leading what is a turnaround situation in one of the most competitive markets in the world.
    She's not leading it. Thorsten Heins, the CEO of BBRY, is.
    09-27-13 01:42 PM
  25. Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes's Avatar
    Fail so hard investors wanna fine me. But first they gotta find me! -thorsten heins
    09-27-13 02:33 PM
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