[m1a1mg]

Just because someone dowloads an app does not make them a user. I download lots of apps. Many don't last a day.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using CB Forums mobile app

[tinochiko]

Just because someone dowloads an app does not make them a user. I download lots of apps. Many don't last a day.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using CB Forums mobile app

Lol well then, it's a good thing BBM is able to show the number of active users then

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[chr1sny]

Point of order Mr Chairman, I believe that it's a 10-year low.

The tail-end of 2003 was the last time BB shares were this low.

But, the "investors" probably don't want to talk that either LOL

I stand corrected. I've been relying on Google's quick stock ticker and it lists a 5 year range but not 10.

[chr1sny]

Okay well since you've spoken for them all, I just wanted to ask a question, or rather ask you to consider a situation..bear with me my imagination runs deep...

So a lot of you have been saying when it comes to investments, emotions should steer clear, well does that principle apply to all types of investments?

Take for example marriage, this is an investment in the sense that you are commiting the rest of your life(well maybe not these days) to an individual, hoping that througout that time you will get a return though mutually beneficial 'love', children, someone to care when you die etc.. I'm just illustrating how marriage can be considered an investment, if we agree on that, then my next point is..

Is the best marriage one in which having worked out all the risks, you've seen they are minimal? Where one thinks the most rationally? Or is the best marriage one which is an expression of emotions through actions?

I know I know I hear you, you're not married to blackberry, and if you're a small risk small reward investor then for sure BlackBerry is a steer clear zone right now, but if you're a high risk high reward investor, then BlackBerry doesn't really look that bad, and it's not senseless to invest in it at all,

The point I'm trying to make (although it's probably got lost somewhere) is its as 'realistic' to see BlackBerry as an investment opportunity as it is to see it as a monetary black hole, if not more so..

The other point I was trying to make, os whilst the generic view at the moment is you don't tie emotions to investments, if you have a look at people who've won big through investments you'll find mixed stories, if you look at people who've won really big, you'll find that most if not all did the opposite of what everyone was doing, they went against the tide (high risk, high reward) there is little or no way that someone can do that rationally no matter how big the 'reward' is which you could tie rationality to, there is an element of emotion in all high risk transactions.

The same is true in general, if youre about to do something risky, there is inevitably going to be more emotion tied to it than something of less risk, so the advice that emotions and investments can't correlate is idealistic at best, and whilst obviously high risk is high risk, it's also high reward meaning you can be a successful investor by investing emotionally. Or you could lose everything, but what better lesson than having nothing and turning it into something? The American Dream isn't it?

So so so sorry for the length and probably the content, .. I realise I've said nothing about BlackBerry, well whilst in excited about the 10.2.1 and bbm channels developments, I'm conserved as to the impact this will have over the whole Company although I'm hopeful, and I've become known among my friends to be a Blackberry guy, constantly engaging them about its awesomeness,

Anyway sorry again for the length, looking forward to responses

TechCraze C0008DDD1

I hear what you're saying but in the end we differ fundamentally in that I think emotion should be left at the door when it comes to investing.

A lot of longs around here lose their objectivity and desperately turn to hyperbole (e.g., better android than android) and oversimplification (e.g., if Apple or Air Canada can turnaround so can BBRY) in an attempt to defend and convince others (themselves?) that BBRY is a good investment.

Almost every somewhat objective indicator confirms that BBRY is not a good investment and yet I see people on here unwilling to recognize this or acknowledge that they were wrong for investing in BBRY and encouraging others to do so (even worse).

[Otech#CB]

BBM is Beast! It's competing and it's only getting stronger. I recommend you guys start looking at articles published by BerryFlow.com and N4BB.com. These websites actually provide real information for investors and potential investors. @Tino is making a good point, and you guys are still talking like it hasn't made a difference. It's better than iMessage and Google+, in my opinion. Pin-to-Pin messaging is a better way of communicating. That makes BBM shine! It's not just like everything else, it's unique, and can do the things many people want to do. It can't be replicated to the extent that it can replicate a bunch of apps and put them into one. Remember how AIM used to be the ishh? Well its going to happen with BBM going cross-platform.

Posted via CB10

[JeepBB]

I stand corrected. I've been relying on Google's quick stock ticker and it lists a 5 year range but not 10.

I wasn't sure after I'd posted if someone was going to come back with how they'd split or something, but unless someone knows different this is a 10-year low.

[chr1sny]

BBM is Beast! It's competing and it's only getting stronger. I recommend you guys start looking at articles published by BerryFlow.com and N4BB.com. These websites actually provide real information for investors and potential investors. @Tino is making a good point, and you guys are still talking like it hasn't made a difference. It's better than iMessage and Google+, in my opinion. Pin-to-Pin messaging is a better way of communicating. That makes BBM shine! It's not just like everything else, it's unique, and can do the things many people want to do. It can't be replicated to the extent that it can replicate a bunch of apps and put them into one. Remember how AIM used to be the ishh? Well its going to happen with BBM going cross-platform.

Posted via CB10

Looks like the rest of the market needs to read "n4bb" and "berryflow" as well too because it hasn't been responding well to BBM's "beastness".

BBM isn't the first social networking app to catch on. The test for all of them is whether they can monetize their active user bases. The market seems to have confidence that twitter will but not BBRY. Why is that? Media/American bias? NSA? Fears that hardware will continue to drag down the rest of the company?

[tinochiko]

Looks like the rest of the market needs to read "n4bb" and "berryflow" as well too because it hasn't been responding well to BBM's "beastness".

BBM isn't the first social networking app to catch on. The test for all of them is whether they can monetize their active user bases. The market seems to have confidence that twitter will but not BBRY. Why is that? Media/American bias? NSA? Fears that hardware will continue to drag down the rest of the company?

Twitter has been cross platform +Web for a long time, it's not fair to compare them tbh, twitter has already been monetising it's service not with direct advertisement but sponsored tweets etc, whilst bbm as far as I know hasn't in any way monetised, although they missed an opportunity to combine with text messaging..


The biggest problem I have seen, and this isn't just some whim, I have done research however limited and seen that it's all marketing, I probably know more about the z30 than anyone within my local area, including the network stores. Although what I have seen which is good is that blackberry reps are keeping up their visits to the stores especially with EE, but they really need a big push in marketing, to sell the unsold z10's, sell more Q's and loads of Z30's, which I hope will come I'm time for.the Xmas rush, carphone.warehouse has done well depending on how you loom by reducing the price of the fully touch screen devices by a lot

This means hopefully more sales, but also means the product is seen to have less value, I hope that doesn't happen with the z30 and it sells well at its deserved price but time will tell


What I'm trying to show you is wholly i.repsect you want to see the 'objective data' and belive in investing based on that, nothing is truly objective, even the numbers have some subjectivity to them anything to do with prediction has subjectivity, as I'm sure we are all aware, data has more than one interpretation, and just because the data tells you Blackberry's time is up, doesn't mean it can't tell someone else it's time to invest for the long term..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[zee3p0]

Your joking right? I guess you haven't read about twitter being under investigation by the SEC. Twitter is dead, another financial market business scam. At least with BlackBerry you have value. Oh and twitters crackerjack patent fiasco, lmao

Posted via CB10

[chr1sny]

Your joking right? I guess you haven't read about twitter being under investigation by the SEC. Twitter is dead, another financial market business scam. At least with BlackBerry you have value. Oh and twitters crackerjack patent fiasco, lmao

Posted via CB10

Lmao, what's Twitter trading at? What's BBRY trading at?

[tinochiko]

Lmao, what's Twitter trading at? What's BBRY trading at?

Is that all that matters for you? What provides the whole truth? What a company is currently trading at?

Noone is refuting the fact that in terms of the stock market, BlackBerry is doing terribly even though it could and you imply it will do worse


Why do you so easily pass the death sentence though? That's what I'm not getting, yes blackberry is is in a bad position, but it could be doing so much worse. The mere fact that I have a Z10 in my hands right now is proof of that fact, they actually got BB10 out, granted it could have gone a whole lot better, but what blackberry and it's employees don't need right now is an ace over their heads, because that's when people over react and act impulsively,


You say you're thinking objectively, but the more you post, the more it seems like you personally don't like blackberry, and are ready to use anything as a sign of death, if you truly want to be 'objective' then you have to be in the middle, you have to admit it's just as fine to doom blackberry as to be hopeful about it at this point in time..

And you can say well we haven't seen anything from Chen and all the CEO's before him said the same etc etc, well the fact of the matter is not seeing anything doesn't mean it's all bad, and some people have seen something through the things that happened in the company immedialty following his appointment (moving around UK, and Africa CEO'S) and other things, but it's like you're choosing to.ignore these and shake them off as nothing

On one hand that presents something that needs to be.dealt with, (if the most doubtful can be convinced then the rest are easy) on the other hand I wouldn't expect this from a Crackberry user who sees the same information posted about BlackBerry as I do, I would expect a 'down but not out yet' as the worst perspective based on the many things I've seen but i guess that's people for you,

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[zee3p0]

Lmao, what's Twitter trading at? What's BBRY trading at?

Thats the point, twitter is a scam

Posted via CB10

[chtang]

Loool oh dear, I'm talking about competitors in a business sense, the sense that matters when you're talking about an investment

So am I.

and I was talking about the current competitors, although if you read what I wrote I said I said CURRENTLY snapchat can not be considered a competitor although if it adds more FEATURES then it could be..

The problem is that you just can't compare current state. A new software release could happen at any time, and the competitive landscape will change in a blink of the eye.

Facebook offered billions to buy Snapchat, because they are genuinely afraid of them and their youthful base. That may sound silly when you compare their respective user counts, but with network effects, a platform can acquire users very, very quickly and Facebook doesn't want to slide into irrelevance.

[garnok]

I'll try and keep it short...

Saying 'you can look it up in the dictionary' is a poor argument, definitions change constantly, whatever in the dictionary is what some people decide was societies definition at the time, it's practically immediate outdated

In any case, like I said before, and please read so I don't keep repeating myself because you've repeated yourself, not actually adding any points to contradictory my statements,.. anyway, like I said before, marriage involves money, granted it's not a orthodox form of consious investment, but it is an investment, and I've given you examples of investments which aren't just putting money to make money (Entrepreneur)

You are exactly giving the view my anti-blackerry friends gave about bbm going cross platform which implys that you don't really have a 'blackberry' vision and don't understand what it's for. If blackberry was just bbm, why are blackberry phones still selling? Yes they're losing market share in some places. They are also gaining it in others, can you show evidence to prove that they lost market share as a direct result of bbm going cross platform?

Lol again I don't seek to intentionally belittle what you're saying, but you just implied that all companies that aren't on the stock market have no value... so Richard Branson owns some broke companies then, he bought his companies back from the stock exchange because he saw that the quality of his service and goods was no longer the main thing that made up the value of the company..
Yes it's what p.w used to value the company but that's not the only thing you can use, especially if you're looking at long term investment...

I never said the stock value was low just because people are panicking, I was trying to show that people's 'feelings' have an effect on the stock price which can be different to the reality..

Whilst all the things you say may be true, although I haven't verified them myself. What did you expect? If you look at the way things have been happening you're not expecting to hear oh suddenly revenue is up and sales are up it takes time, and when you hear that, it will be too late to invest because the share price will be rocketing, that's why I say when you're considering long term investment you look at other things not just the current figures, you look at how likely a solution is and.the time line etc..

You speak with the mind of someone who doesn't see the blackberry vision and is just in it for short term investment, like a marriage you have good times and bad, and if you have the bottle to stick with it in the bad times, you'll experience the benefits of the good times., but some people aren't built for it and that's why there are easy exits like divorce.. I'm not saying 100% I'm sure blackberry will succeed wool over my eyes, I'm saying it's not silly or naive to believe that a solution is possible, just time

Please show me the surveys you've done to come up with these 'facts' competitive pricing? That's why Apple is seen currently as the golden stock even though they have high profit margins? �74 just on 32gb memory? If you don't think BlackBerry can succeed with those who want to get things done that's your choice, some people still don't belive man has been to the moon.. just don't discourse others with poor information

dont buy BB10 phone because they are bad product...but people today want apps, best hardware, competitive pricing, great after sales service, brand image , proven OS ..maybe BB can win in professional / enterprise / government because their securities..but in mainstream / average joe smartphone market i dont think so...

TechCraze C0008DDD1 [/QUOTE]

dont want to start argue anymore with investment meaning...because we will keep arguing without any direction...

BB phone are selling less in their last quarter, then quarter before...we need to see latest quarter financial result but i believe they will announce more drop in sales number...BBM cross platform is one element that make BB lose their phone sales...

no there are difference between public company and private company...public company using stock price as a way to know how much their market value....and BBRY are public company so stock price always a best way to know their real market value.

i guess richard branson not buying his company expensive..he buying his company according to market value at that time...is he buying a broken company ? maybe yes...but richard branson know he can turn the company . like i said before...maybe new CEO can turn BBRY to become profitable, healthy company but it still to early to make a conclusion...and there still plenty time to invest even if the stock price will go up..like buffet said "it's far better to buy a wonderful company at a fair price than a fair company at a wonderful price"

you can look BB financial report on their website, or go to reuters and financial times and type BBRY

you can look at CB forum, comment on BB10 review on other website...people complaining how expensive BB10 prices. that is one the reason why BB10 phone price keep dropping Z10 from $650 to $199 off contract, Q5 and Q10 experience price drop, Z30 being sold not as expensive as Z10 at first launch. iPhone can sell expensive phone because they have strong brand image...adding it with great after sales, their own hardware design, and huge apps selection + ecosystem.

[Otech#CB]

So am I.


The problem is that you just can't compare current state. A new software release could happen at any time, and the competitive landscape will change in a blink of the eye.

Facebook offered billions to buy Snapchat, because they are genuinely afraid of them and their youthful base. That may sound silly when you compare their respective user counts, but with network effects, a platform can acquire users very, very quickly and Facebook doesn't want to slide into irrelevance.

They could've made an offer on BlackBerry with that money. Instead they wanted an app that they can easily recreate. That's the thing I personally don't get. Investment plans are so against BlackBerry, but they support apps and such tiny purchases. What would the purchase of snapchat benefit you, the user? Nothing. You wouldn't benefit. Instead you're going to get what instagram got. Its not a big step up compared to BBM Channels and the potential it has as a whole when combined with BlackBerry...for $1.7 Billion more than snapchat got an offer for...weird investments.

[chtang]

They could've made an offer on BlackBerry with that money. Instead they wanted an app that they can easily recreate. That's the thing I personally don't get. Investment plans are so against BlackBerry, but they support apps and such tiny purchases. What would the purchase of snapchat benefit you, the user? Nothing. You wouldn't benefit. Instead you're going to get what instagram got. Its not a big step up compared to BBM Channels and the potential it has as a whole when combined with BlackBerry...for $1.7 Billion more than snapchat got an offer for...weird investments.

It's not about the underlying technology. Facebook has great engineers, they could probably code up disappearing pics in a weekend if they wanted.

The issue for Facebook is user acquisition. Anecdotally, none of my friends' kids have any interest in Facebook. That's what their parents and grandparents use. The kids want to be on Instagram and Snapchat. Facebook is willing to pay big bucks to get control of those platforms and the next generation of users. Blackberry wouldn't be of interest to them because the user base is older and most are already on Facebook.

[JonCBK]

It's not about the underlying technology. Facebook has great engineers, they could probably code up disappearing pics in a weekend if they wanted.

The issue for Facebook is user acquisition. Anecdotally, none of my friends' kids have any interest in Facebook. That's what their parents and grandparents use. The kids want to be on Instagram and Snapchat. Facebook is willing to pay big bucks to get control of those platforms and the next generation of users. Blackberry wouldn't be of interest to them because the user base is older and most are already on Facebook.

Did facebook in fact do that? They have an app called poke. I believe that it is rarely used.

Facebook is not really willing to pay cash. They are willing to use their shares which they are probably quite aware may be vastly overvalued. Much like how AOL was able to acquire Time Warner Cable just a few years before AOLS subscriber base abandoned them I droves, the tech companies must use their stock to acquire other entities to give themselves the evidence of growth.

Posted via CB10

[tinochiko]

TechCraze C0008DDD1

dont want to start argue anymore with investment meaning...because we will keep arguing without any direction...

BB phone are selling less in their last quarter, then quarter before...we need to see latest quarter financial result but i believe they will announce more drop in sales number...BBM cross platform is one element that make BB lose their phone sales...

no there are difference between public company and private company...public company using stock price as a way to know how much their market value....and BBRY are public company so stock price always a best way to know their real market value.

i guess richard branson not buying his company expensive..he buying his company according to market value at that time...is he buying a broken company ? maybe yes...but richard branson know he can turn the company . like i said before...maybe new CEO can turn BBRY to become profitable, healthy company but it still to early to make a conclusion...and there still plenty time to invest even if the stock price will go up..like buffet said "it's far better to buy a wonderful company at a fair price than a fair company at a wonderful price"

you can look BB financial report on their website, or go to reuters and financial times and type BBRY

you can look at CB forum, comment on BB10 review on other website...people complaining how expensive BB10 prices. that is one the reason why BB10 phone price keep dropping Z10 from $650 to $199 off contract, Q5 and Q10 experience price drop, Z30 being sold not as expensive as Z10 at first launch. iPhone can sell expensive phone because they have strong brand image...adding it with great after sales, their own hardware design, and huge apps selection + ecosystem.[/QUOTE]

Well if you choose not to go in the right direction what can I do? Since you like quotes ; 'you can brink a donkey to the water but you can't make it drink'


Lol you're going directly from a drop in sales to BBM cross platform being the cause.. there's no proof there, it's like saying the sun was up when I woke up so it must be the sun that woke me up.. you need evidence to show the link

I've shown you but either you miss those sentences or don't understand, every sale made after BBM cross-platform voids the point that BBM is the only pull for BlackBerry, does it not? Also it shows you personally don't believe in the experience of BB10? Have you used a BB10 phone? Look at the reviews for the phone itself and you'll see the only downside shown is apps and for some the camera in the sense of mega pixels, not festures because time shift is awesome

Oh so now you say not all companies use the stock market as the only thing to show their value? I see, don't you think 'best' is subjective? Do you know market value can be manipulated? All I'm saying is look beyond marker value but again, can't force a donkey to drink

'you guess'? So evidence is of little value to you then, guessing is all good? That explains a lot.. I wasn't talking about a current purchase.. he bought back his own business in 1988 from Brussels, his formal reason being he didn't like the short-termism of traders, he added that he didn't like that people who didn't have the 'Virgin' vision could invest in it.. and no it wasn't cheap it cost him billions

'there will be plenty of time to invest' oh really? Is there plenty of time to invest in Bitcoins now? People who believed in it from.the beginning are reaping their rewards now, and it's taken at least 4 years.. but that's fine like I said, high risk high reward, when the shares start going up the risk will go.down then people like you 'low risk low reward' may jump in, unless it's only short term of course.. if it's too early for you to make a conclusion don't assume that's true for everyone else

So would you not agree for the long term it's more beneficial for BlackBerry to build up their brand image than to go for low end devices and cut prices? And it's been how many months since z10 started selling? Price goes down over time anyway.. have you taken that into account or just happy to 'guess' away.. thats your choice I respect you for it



TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[cgk]

but they really need a big push in marketing, to sell the unsold z10's, sell more Q's and loads of Z30's, which I hope will come I'm time for.the Xmas rush, carphone.warehouse has done well depending on how you loom by reducing the price of the fully touch screen devices by a lot

Forget it - nobody starts a Christmas marketing campaign on the 10th of December - what you see (nothing) is what you get.

[tinochiko]

Forget it - nobody starts a Christmas marketing campaign on the 10th of December - what you see (nothing) is what you get.

If that's the opinion you choose to have that's your business's, I'll wait until Christmas day before I form mine, and just because YOU seeing nothing doesn't mean that's what it is, I was talking about a major push, there is some marketing still Ll going on, just nothing major..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[cgk]

If that's the opinion you choose to have that's your business's, I'll wait until Christmas day before I form mine, and just because

Marketing around the Christmas period is agreed with partners months in advance and generally starts in November - nobody starts a major campaign with less than two weeks to go and virtually no chance of influence decision-making - especially after a number of the most important shopping days have passed.

YOU seeing nothing doesn't mean that's what it is, I was talking about a major push, there is some marketing still Ll going on, just nothing major..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

Tell you what then - it's easy to prove me wrong - which TV/Newspaper or other marketing for promotional activity for the Z30 in the UK do you think is the most impressive?

[tinochiko]

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[cgk]

A random video that is about QNX, doesn't mention the Z30 and has never been used in the UK in any way is the most impressive thing you can find to answer the question?

[garnok]

Well if you choose not to go in the right direction what can I do? Since you like quotes ; 'you can brink a donkey to the water but you can't make it drink'


Lol you're going directly from a drop in sales to BBM cross platform being the cause.. there's no proof there, it's like saying the sun was up when I woke up so it must be the sun that woke me up.. you need evidence to show the link

I've shown you but either you miss those sentences or don't understand, every sale made after BBM cross-platform voids the point that BBM is the only pull for BlackBerry, does it not? Also it shows you personally don't believe in the experience of BB10? Have you used a BB10 phone? Look at the reviews for the phone itself and you'll see the only downside shown is apps and for some the camera in the sense of mega pixels, not festures because time shift is awesome

Oh so now you say not all companies use the stock market as the only thing to show their value? I see, don't you think 'best' is subjective? Do you know market value can be manipulated? All I'm saying is look beyond marker value but again, can't force a donkey to drink

'you guess'? So evidence is of little value to you then, guessing is all good? That explains a lot.. I wasn't talking about a current purchase.. he bought back his own business in 1988 from Brussels, his formal reason being he didn't like the short-termism of traders, he added that he didn't like that people who didn't have the 'Virgin' vision could invest in it.. and no it wasn't cheap it cost him billions

'there will be plenty of time to invest' oh really? Is there plenty of time to invest in Bitcoins now? People who believed in it from.the beginning are reaping their rewards now, and it's taken at least 4 years.. but that's fine like I said, high risk high reward, when the shares start going up the risk will go.down then people like you 'low risk low reward' may jump in, unless it's only short term of course.. if it's too early for you to make a conclusion don't assume that's true for everyone else

So would you not agree for the long term it's more beneficial for BlackBerry to build up their brand image than to go for low end devices and cut prices? And it's been how many months since z10 started selling? Price goes down over time anyway.. have you taken that into account or just happy to 'guess' away.. thats your choice I respect you for it



TechCraze C0008DDD1

i have provide a link in my past post in this thread you can find it..to proof that in many BB market they are losing sales because BBM cross platform. let see the next financial result are BlackBerry phone sales number keep dropping or not...

i've tried my friend BB10 phone and reading review for BB10 phone..but most of the reviews only mention even if BB10 is a good phone, but it bring nothing special to the competition.

there are different with public and private companies...we are talking about BBRY a public company...so stock price is the ultimate way to calculate market value...

there is plenty time to invest....smart investors, traders dont gamble, they are always analyze everything...you dont need to wait 4 years, you just need to see their financial report every quarter and look the company plan for future...of course in stock market there are some lucky accident where you dont do research but you still getting profit, but the probabilites are better when you trade smart and wise.

from i see you are trading only using "guessing" technic...better pray you are one of the lucky people. and if you are not a fan of risk management go to las vegas, macau, or do online gambling it surely is "high risk and high reward"

drop BB Z10 to $199 surely not a good way to building their band image..yes Phone price eventually will drop , but not as fast as Z10 prices...Z30 and Q5 also drop significanly eventhough not as big as Z10..and to make it worse they are now losing many of their main partner carrier and store...

now i see you are the donkey...ok then