10-07-13 12:17 PM
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  1. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iPhone-1...bUvbUpU8324872
    720$ for the iPhone.

    http://www.amazon.com/Blackberry-Z10...bUvbUpU8324872
    630$ for the Z10

    http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00B...ndrocentr0a-21
    550 euro for a Z10

    http://www.amazon.de/Apple-Smartphon...ndrocentr0a-21
    660 euro for an iPhone5


    And because I am in the mood: i am not talking about carrier subsidies...
    That means that, if Apple sells you an iPad for 488 euros, the money they make with that, is also used to subsidize their "Free" cloud services.
    http://www.amazon.de/Apple-MD510FD-i...ndrocentr0a-21
    488 euro

    You were completely wrong...
    I fail to seey why you even tried it...

    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 05:48 AM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Amazon.com: Apple iPhone 5 16GB (White) - Unlocked: Cell Phones & Accessories
    720$ for the iPhone.

    Amazon.com: Blackberry Z10 16gb Black Factory Unlocked Gsm: Cell Phones & Accessories
    630$ for the Z10

    BlackBerry Z10 Smartphone schwarz: Amazon.de: Elektronik
    550 euro for a Z10

    http://www.amazon.de/Apple-Smartphon...ndrocentr0a-21
    660 euro for an iPhone5


    And because I am in the mood: i am not talking about carrier subsidies...
    That means that, if Apple sells you an iPad for 488 euros, the money they make with that, is also used to subsidize their "Free" cloud services.
    Apple MD510FD/A iPad 4 mit Retina-Display 16GB WiFi: Amazon.de: Elektronik
    488 euro

    You were completely wrong...
    I fail to seey why you even tried it...

    Posted via CB10
    Why are you showing me Amazon prices? I buy from carriers for instore support and next day replacement by mail.

    Here's where your theory falis again, Iphnes have always cost the same, new ones sell for the same price as the old one and the old one dropps in price.

    Apple has introduced iCloud for free, at no extra cost, as added value services for their platform. What are your thoughts on that.
    04-16-13 06:08 AM
  3. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    @BelfastD
    Do I really have to explain how carrier subsidies work?
    And therefore why ASP to the carrier is important?

    Do you think, the carriers pay the same price for iPhones and BlackBerries?

    Do you think, that there exists something like "Free" in the high tech industry? (some open source projects yes. But they are a minority. In this industry, people sue about phone shapes...)

    Do carriers subsidize MacBooks and iPads with wifi? (it means that Apple subsidizes its free services, also through their other hardware, that has nothing to do with carriers.)

    Do you even have the slightest idea, how the mobile market works, on the carrier side?

    I will not explain these things. Read them up, and then come back.If you want to discuss things, without knowing the basics, then it becomes ridiculous.
    Please, stop making s fool out of yourself. It's just embarrassing...

    I will give you a hint though:
    http://bgr.com/2013/01/23/apple-earn...ne-asp-301963/
    ASP of iPhones was 640$ , around the world, including carriers


    @Everybody else:
    What this price comparison means, is that BlackBerry has an ASP hat is lower than the ones of some competitors. How much that is, will differ from the regions, they do business in. But what we know is that Apple makes more money off of their hardware.

    And we know that Google makes money off of their users information.

    What we also know, is that BlackBerry only sells phones on the hardware sides of things, compared to their competitors (except Nokia).
    Exemples: Apple also produces Notebooks. Samsung makes TVs, notebooks etc.
    This means that BlackBerry has only one point of failure, and if that thing breaks, they are toast.
    It is horrible, considering risk management.

    Since we cannot hope, for BBRY to make any Notebooks, or TV's in the near future, we must think of other solutions, so that they can bridge the gap, in the ASP and earn some money elsewhere.

    The hypothtical service solutions from BlackBerry, have been priced by myself in the way I did, to do exactly that. If the ASP of a BBRY Z10 is by 490$, then they help them to bridge the gap to the iPhones ASP of 640$.
    It also improves Risk management.


    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 04-16-13 at 06:59 AM.
    04-16-13 06:43 AM
  4. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    @BelfastD
    Do I really have to explain how carrier subsidies work?
    And therefore why ASP to the carrier is important?

    Do you think, the carriers pay the same price for iPhones and BlackBerries?

    Do you think, that there exists something like "Free" in the high tech industry? (some open source projects yes. But they are a minority. In this industry, people sue about phone shapes...)

    Do carriers subsidize MacBooks and iPads with wifi? (it means that Apple subsidizes its free services, also through their other hardware, that has nothing to do with carriers.)

    Do you even have the slightest idea, how the mobile market works, on the carrier side?

    I will not explain these things. Read them up, and then come back.If you want to discuss things, without knowing the basics, then it becomes ridiculous.
    Please, stop making s fool out of yourself. It's just embarrassing...

    I will give you a hint though:
    Apple Earnings Analysis: iPhone 5 ASP in Q1 2013 | BGR
    ASP of iPhones was 640$ , around the world, including carriers


    @Everybody else:
    What this price comparison means, is that BlackBerry has an ASP hat is lower than the ones of some competitors. How much that is, will differ from the regions, they do business in. But what we know is that Apple makes more money off of their hardware.

    And we know that Google makes money off of their users information.

    What we also know, is that BlackBerry only sells phones on the hardware sides of things, compared to their competitors (except Nokia).
    Exemples: Apple also produces Notebooks. Samsung makes TVs, notebooks etc.
    This means that BlackBerry has only one point of failure, and if that thing breaks, they are toast.
    It is horrible, considering risk management.

    Since we cannot hope, for BBRY to make any Notebooks, or TV's in the near future, we must think of other solutions, so that they can bridge the gap, in the ASP.

    The hypothtical service solutions from BlackBerry, have been priced by myself in the way I did, to do exactly that. If the ASP of a BBRY Z10 is by 490$, then they help them to bridge the gap to the iPhones ASP of 640$.


    Posted via CB10
    Before you go into a rant note that carriers sell at full price or on a contract at a subsidized price. But either way the offer full support for the device, something that Amazon doesn't.

    Iphones and new BlackBerrys are not that different in price, yet Apple offers more value added services like @me active sync email and Icloud, Siri etc
    04-16-13 07:00 AM
  5. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    You clearly do not want to understand.
    I did not start a debate about the theme: is carrier subsidizing better than buying your phone off contract directly. That is a strawmen, and a non sequitur, at it's best.

    Therefore, as long as you do not get some basic knowledge, about these matters, I will just ignore you. When you educated yourself enough to the point, where you are qualified to talk about the mobile landscape, you can come back.

    You are also free to admit that you are clueless. Like that, the other members in this forum, would at least know, how serious you can be taken.

    Exemple: everybody in the industry, everybody knows, that the ASP of iPhones is far higher than the one of the Z10. Go ask CrackBerry Kevin.

    Since this is my thread, and I still try to give valuable information:
    It does not matter, at what price the customer sees the phone at the Carrier. It matters how much money the phone manufacturer earns through these sales.
    If Phone Manufacturer "A" gets 100 dollar more per sale than manufacturer "B", than it is easy to give away "Free services"
    If "A" sells notebooks for prices that triple the prices of manufacturers' "B" phones, it is not difficult to enhance an ecosystem.

    To not understand, that you pay for these services, in one way or another, is only a fallacy uneducated consumers commit.


    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 07:30 AM
  6. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    @ All:
    Contribution is still very much needed and I hope to gather some nice ideas.
    Thanks to BelfastD I had to make a lot of proof checking and, even if I am annoyed by the derailment, I had a better Brainstorming session than I would have gotten without him. (thanks for that BelfastD)

    We had some good ideas here that were burried in some arguments. So I will edit my first post and give a recapitulation in one of the follow up posts.

    Thanks to every contributor until now!

    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 08:15 AM
  7. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    You clearly do not want to understand.
    I did not start a debate about the theme: is carrier subsidizing better than buying your phone off contract directly. That is a strawmen, and a non sequitur, at it's best.

    Therefore, as long as you do not get some basic knowledge, about these matters, I will just ignore you. When you educated yourself enough to the point, where you are qualified to talk about the mobile landscape, you can come back.

    You are also free to admit that you are clueless. Like that, the other members in this forum, would at least know, how serious you can be taken.

    Exemple: everybody in the industry, everybody knows, that the ASP of iPhones is far higher than the one of the Z10. Go ask CrackBerry Kevin.

    Since this is my thread, and I still try to give valuable information:
    It does not matter, at what price the customer sees the phone at the Carrier. It matters how much money the phone manufacturer earns through these sales.
    If Phone Manufacturer "A" gets 100 dollar more per sale than manufacturer "B", than it is easy to give away "Free services"
    If "A" sells notebooks for prices that triple the prices of manufacturers' "B" phones, it is not difficult to enhance an ecosystem.

    To not understand, that you pay for these services, in one way or another, is only a fallacy uneducated consumers commit.


    Posted via CB10
    I am an uneducated consumer to a certain extent but don't forget it's us that has to part with Our cash. And here's how it works :

    Consumer walks into a shop, they see a phone, they ask how much and what do I get with it.

    Consumer walks into a shop and see a Z10, they ask how much and what do I get with it. The answer is not much.

    Perhaps the consumer will ask

    Does this BlackBerry come with a @blackberry email address? No, not this one

    Does this BlackBerry still have data compression? No, not this one

    Does this BlackBerry still have true push email? No, not this one.

    Does this BlackBerry still has all the customization options for notifications etc? No, not this one.

    Does it at least get all the popular apps? No, just like the old one.

    Well them Mr salesman, why should I but this phone? Silence


    Before BlackBerry talk about revenue rasing features they need to sort the free ones.


    Ok, Ok, I know they're not exactly free but included in the price.

    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 09:02 AM
  8. kbz1960's Avatar
    I am an uneducated consumer to a certain extent but don't forget it's us that has to part with Our cash. And here's how it works :

    Consumer walks into a shop, they see a phone, they ask how much and what do I get with it.

    Consumer walks into a shop and see a Z10, they ask how much and what do I get with it. The answer is not much.

    Perhaps the consumer will ask

    Does this BlackBerry come with a @blackberry email address? No, not this one

    Does this BlackBerry still have data compression? No, not this one

    Does this BlackBerry still have true push email? No, not this one.

    Does this BlackBerry still has all the customization options for notifications etc? No, not this one.

    Does it at least get all the popular apps? No, just like the old one.

    Well them Mr salesman, why should I but this phone? Silence


    Before BlackBerry talk about revenue rasing features they need to sort the free ones.


    Ok, Ok, I know they're not exactly free but included in the price.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree and after the crickets the person will be walking out with an iphone or android. Cause they surely aren't walking out with legacy devices.
    web99 likes this.
    04-16-13 09:32 AM
  9. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I agree and after the crickets the person will be walking out with an iphone or android. Cause they surely aren't walking out with legacy devices.
    Fortunately for BB some still do but I assume most are just upgrades.
    04-16-13 09:43 AM
  10. Jaybles's Avatar
    I am an uneducated consumer to a certain extent but don't forget it's us that has to part with Our cash. And here's how it works :

    Consumer walks into a shop, they see a phone, they ask how much and what do I get with it.

    Consumer walks into a shop and see a Z10, they ask how much and what do I get with it. The answer is not much.

    Perhaps the consumer will ask

    Does this BlackBerry come with a @blackberry email address? No, not this one

    Does this BlackBerry still have data compression? No, not this one

    Does this BlackBerry still have true push email? No, not this one.

    Does this BlackBerry still has all the customization options for notifications etc? No, not this one.

    Does it at least get all the popular apps? No, just like the old one.

    Well them Mr salesman, why should I but this phone? Silence


    Before BlackBerry talk about revenue rasing features they need to sort the free ones.


    Ok, Ok, I know they're not exactly free but included in the price.

    Posted via CB10
    1 in 10 may ask those questions but most go in and say things like.

    Oooo thats a nice screen. Can I play angry birds and watch films on it?

    Does it have Facebook and twitter?

    Can I get my emails?


    Cool, I'll buy it.




    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX and web99 like this.
    04-16-13 09:43 AM
  11. qbnkelt's Avatar
    1 in 10 may ask those questions but most go in and say things like.

    Oooo thats a nice screen. Can I play angry birds and watch films on it?

    Does it have Facebook and twitter?

    Can I get my emails?


    Cool, I'll buy it.




    Posted via CB10
    Exactly.

    In 2013 people are not going to buy two year old devices that were already behind the competition when they launched.

    The camera and browser on the 9900/9930 alone will keep buyers looking for modern devices away from it.

    5% global market share proves that.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX and web99 like this.
    04-16-13 09:49 AM
  12. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    1 in 10 may ask those questions but most go in and say things like.

    Oooo thats a nice screen. Can I play angry birds and watch films on it?

    Does it have Facebook and twitter?

    Can I get my emails?


    Cool, I'll buy it.




    Posted via CB10
    No consumer is that stupid anymore, no matter how uneducated.
    04-16-13 09:56 AM
  13. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I am an uneducated consumer to a certain extent but don't forget it's us that has to part with Our cash. And here's how it works :

    Consumer walks into a shop, they see a phone, they ask how much and what do I get with it.

    Consumer walks into a shop and see a Z10, they ask how much and what do I get with it. The answer is not much.

    Perhaps the consumer will ask

    Does this BlackBerry come with a @blackberry email address? No, not this one

    Does this BlackBerry still have data compression? No, not this one

    Does this BlackBerry still have true push email? No, not this one.

    Does this BlackBerry still has all the customization options for notifications etc? No, not this one.

    Does it at least get all the popular apps? No, just like the old one.

    Well them Mr salesman, why should I but this phone? Silence


    Before BlackBerry talk about revenue rasing features they need to sort the free ones.


    Ok, Ok, I know they're not exactly free but included in the price.

    Posted via CB10
    @BelfastD
    I will compliment you on admitting that you are an uneducated consumer. This was the most honest thing you could say, apart from your love for legacy devices. You may not care, but you just gained respect, for that honesty.

    KBZ said the most important thing: If the newest BlackBerry cannot sway consumers away, from devices that have far more features and are far newer than the legacy devices, than the sale was lost, before the consumer even went into the store.

    The most worrying thing you say BelfastD is that one: "Before BlackBerry talk about revenue rasing features they need to sort the free ones."

    Blackberry as a company, is not financial sound. They did not prove that they are capable of staying relevant for the consumer. Or that we can count on them being here in 6 Quarters.

    They need every $ they can get. That is why they laid off half of their stuff. That is why they had the "Fire sale" on the Playbook. And that is also why, I do not understand how you can be so deluded, and think that BlackBerry has the luxury to give things away for free.

    Even if it doesn't make you happy, accept the following fact: BlackBerry cannot give things away for free. They need every single $.

    And I applaude you, that you have ignored, that I stated at least 7 times, how they should give BlackBerry hardware owners, BBM of course for free and then they probably should give them a secure Email adress for a limited time. Your talent, in ignoring things, that contradict your statements, is astonishing.

    Remember what I taught you about cross subsidizing in vertically and horizontally integrated enterprises?

    If we apply that to BlackBerry, then it becomes possible, through the selling of BBM/Email or VPN solutions to smartphone users who do not use a BlackBerry devices, to subsidize these services for their existing hardware clients.


    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 09:58 AM
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Exactly.

    In 2013 people are not going to buy two year old devices that were already behind the competition when they launched.

    The camera and browser on the 9900/9930 alone will keep buyers looking for modern devices away from it.

    5% global market share proves that.

    Posted via CB10
    The question is are they gonna buy Z10s?
    04-16-13 09:58 AM
  15. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Read my post BelfastD.

    Edit:

    It is not about stupidity BelfastD. It is, to get a device that is good enough. The majority wants that. And they said BBRY is not good enough. 5% market share proves that

    WhatsApp proves, that a good enough chat client works for 300 millon consumer. 5 times what BB has.
    Therefore to come back with BBM as a cross platform messenger, they need a lot of Unique Selling Propositions. I try to find them here.

    And I do some other things as well^^


    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 10:00 AM
  16. Jaybles's Avatar
    No consumer is that stupid anymore, no matter how uneducated.
    If you believe that then you may be as stupid as the consumers in question.



    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 10:01 AM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    If you believe that then you may be as stupid as the consumers in question.



    Posted via CB10

    No need for insults thanks!
    southlander likes this.
    04-16-13 10:05 AM
  18. Jaybles's Avatar
    No need for insults thanks!
    I said you MAY be ;P especially if you genuinely believe consumers are as smart and tech savvy as you think.

    Seriously though, the average consumer doesn't care about compression, data, security, BIS.

    I have never heard someone asking these questions when speaking to them about upgrading or overhearing in phone shops.

    In general, consumers can be pretty dumb. But it's mainly because as long as the phone does the basics and looks pretty they are happy.

    You will have more people returning their z10 due to lack of apps rather than lack of BIS

    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 10:12 AM
  19. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Read my post BelfastD.

    Edit:

    It is not about stupidity BelfastD. It is, to get a device that is good enough. The majority wants that. And they said BBRY is not good enough. 5% market share proves that

    WhatsApp proves, that a good enough chat client works for 300 millon consumer. 5 times what BB has.
    Therefore to come back with BBM as a cross platform messenger, they need a lot of Unique Selling Propositions. I try to find them here.

    And I do some other things as well^^


    Posted via CB10
    They had a few USPs and they got rid of them and I agree, they need USPs but right now they need to be free.

    You say open the network to other platforms but can the network handle it? Will other platform allow a BBM app in their app stores, especially Apple?

    Will BB share the profits with Apple? (Is it 30%?)

    Your idea might sound good to you but it's waaaaayyy far fetched.

    In the end they'll not make much money out of it and the regular BB user will end up with a congested network.

    With that, I will leave your theread.
    04-16-13 10:15 AM
  20. Jaybles's Avatar
    A company opening up a service to millions of other users for profit is not far fetched at all.

    I think they should have done it on some capacity a whole ago. A stripped down bbm service or paid service on the play store and iTunes would get more users on board.

    It would give existing users a reason to stay with BlackBerry if they could contact their friends across other devices. And if the service is good enough it could encourage new users to switch to BlackBerry next time they upgrade.



    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    04-16-13 10:20 AM
  21. qbnkelt's Avatar
    A company opening up a service to millions of other users for profit is not far fetched at all.

    I think they should have done it on some capacity a whole ago. A stripped down bbm service or paid service on the play store and iTunes would get more users on board.

    It would give existing users a reason to stay with BlackBerry if they could contact their friends across other devices. And if the service is good enough it could encourage new users to switch to BlackBerry next time they upgrade.



    Posted via CB10
    If BBM had been available to me on my SGIII and my iPhone I would not have bought WhatsApp. I would much rather have had the opportunity of keeping my contacts the same across all my devices. Instead, I've got BBM (three now since some friends bought Z10s) and WhatsApp. I know of one friend who is on Sprint who cannot get a Z10 and is dying for a Q10, so he will also go BBM. My WhatsApp list will go down as adoptees to BB10 go up. RIM/BlackBerry could have made money on them.
    Jaybles likes this.
    04-16-13 10:46 AM
  22. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The question is, can they still make money with it?

    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 11:03 AM
  23. qbnkelt's Avatar
    The question is, can they still make money with it?

    Posted via CB10
    I think it depends now on whether it's too late for BlackBerry. People got so burned so long with an ancient OS that they won't want to give BlackBerry another chance and BBM won't even register anymore. If Z10 can get people back, there will be enough goodwill to try at least the messaging.
    I would, on my non BlackBerry devices. I'd pay. I've got family members who went to other platforms who still like BBM. But not enough to have limped along with an ancient 9900 browser and a ridiculously flawed camera. They left for modern devices. They'd use BBM.

    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 11:13 AM
  24. Jaybles's Avatar
    I think it depends now on whether it's too late for BlackBerry. People got so burned so long with an ancient OS that they won't want to give BlackBerry another chance and BBM won't even register anymore. If Z10 can get people back, there will be enough goodwill to try at least the messaging.
    I would, on my non BlackBerry devices. I'd pay. I've got family members who went to other platforms who still like BBM. But not enough to have limped along with an ancient 9900 browser and a ridiculously flawed camera. They left for modern devices. They'd use BBM.

    Posted via CB10
    My company issued curves to everyone. They always get a bashing as everyone has an I phone or Android personal device. But once I set up a work bbm group and got everyone using it they love bbm.

    I don't think they would hesitate to download it on android or IOS if it became available. They just can't stand the legacy os and devices.

    Plenty have shown interest in the z10 though

    Posted via CB10
    04-16-13 11:30 AM
  25. qbnkelt's Avatar
    My company issued curves to everyone. They always get a bashing as everyone has an I phone or Android personal device. But once I set up a work bbm group and got everyone using it they love bbm.

    I don't think they would hesitate to download it on android or IOS if it became available. They just can't stand the legacy os and devices.

    Plenty have shown interest in the z10 though

    Posted via CB10
    Everyone at work ooooohs and aaaaaaaahs about the Z10. Until the app questions start.

    If this phone had apps it would be a killer device.



    Posted via CB10
    pantlesspenguin likes this.
    04-16-13 12:16 PM
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