10-07-13 01:17 PM
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  1. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    That's a good point, how many two years old legacy devices did BlackBerry sell last quarter all using BIS? How many could they have sold if they had new and improved legacy models out? One thing is for sure, they would've sold far more than BB10 devices, which they already did with the two years old models.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 01:57 PM
  2. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    http://m.crackberry.com/what-are-bears-saying-now
    The BlackBerry 10 Financial Model

    "From most of the reports I've looked at, analysts seem to expect an ASP of $400ish on the new BlackBerry 10 hardware coming out in Q1. Gross margin estimates range from 20-30%, which tells us that the estimated manufacturing cost (all in) will be $280 to $320.

    If we look at BlackBerry 7, my rough math suggests current all-in manufacturing costs are about $250. This jives with the fact that ASP is just under $230, and we know RIM is losing money on hardware today."

    This is not my only source, but the quickest one to find.

    Bobauckland:"Come on, this is turning into you just pushing your opinion and viewpoint. People don't need privacy. They want it. Just like some people want other things. Like reliable email or data compression. I'd say the explosion of things like FaceBook and InstaGram and similar suggests privacy is pretty low on the average consumer's wish list."
    "
    I understand you want to push your point across. I understand you see yourself as right and others as wrong.
    But don't be that guy that says others 'ignore how the market evolves' just because they disagree with you or feel summat else is a priority than you do."

    I will take that point, as I do not have enough empirical data to back up the need for a secure cloud. But VPN tunneling services are growing as well Email content encryption.
    I have no problem in agreeing to disagree at all. But the market evolved away from BlackBerry. That is a simple fact.
    I did not want to imply, that secure VPN tunneling or what ever, is something that the market desperately craves, or that the market goes only in that direction.
    The market comment, was solely used, to describe what happened to BlackBerry in the mobile landscape.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 02:07 PM
  3. kbz1960's Avatar
    That's a good point, how many two years old legacy devices did BlackBerry sell last quarter all using BIS? How many could they have sold if they had new and improved legacy models out? One thing is for sure, they would've sold far more than BB10 devices, which they already did with the two years old models.

    Posted via CB10
    I don't think that would work. This is a good read and tells some of why they had to change from the OS they were using.

    History of QNX and Blackberry
    04-14-13 02:18 PM
  4. bobauckland's Avatar
    http://m.crackberry.com/what-are-bears-saying-now
    The BlackBerry 10 Financial Model

    "From most of the reports I've looked at, analysts seem to expect an ASP of $400ish on the new BlackBerry 10 hardware coming out in Q1. Gross margin estimates range from 20-30%, which tells us that the estimated manufacturing cost (all in) will be $280 to $320.

    If we look at BlackBerry 7, my rough math suggests current all-in manufacturing costs are about $250. This jives with the fact that ASP is just under $230, and we know RIM is losing money on hardware today."

    This is not my only source, but the quickest one to find.

    Bobauckland:"Come on, this is turning into you just pushing your opinion and viewpoint. People don't need privacy. They want it. Just like some people want other things. Like reliable email or data compression. I'd say the explosion of things like FaceBook and InstaGram and similar suggests privacy is pretty low on the average consumer's wish list."
    "
    I understand you want to push your point across. I understand you see yourself as right and others as wrong.
    But don't be that guy that says others 'ignore how the market evolves' just because they disagree with you or feel summat else is a priority than you do."

    I will take that point, as I do not have enough empirical data to back up the need for a secure cloud. But VPN tunneling services are growing as well Email content encryption.
    I have no problem in agreeing to disagree at all. But the market evolved away from BlackBerry. That is a simple fact.
    I did not want to imply, that secure VPN tunneling or what ever, is something that the market desperately craves, or that the market goes only in that direction.
    The market comment, was solely used, to describe what happened to BlackBerry in the mobile landscape.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree with what you write about the market evolving away from BlackBerry.
    For whatever reason, that did happen.

    But I dunno about the CrackBerry link.
    CrackBerry posts articles and links that always play down negative news, or financial reports, even their Z10 review was more biased than any device review I've ever read from any site.

    Personally I just wouldn't trust a lot of the CrackBerry articles.

    Something else to consider is, I'm sure I've read about how the S3 costs sub 200 dollars to make.
    The S3 has far superior hardware and specs compared to the 9900 doesn't it?
    I find it very hard to believe that, at the moment, the 9900 is costing RIM over 200 dollars to actually produce. Doesn't make sense. Unless I've got my figures wrong somewhere.
    I really doubt they're losing money on legacy devices at the moment.
    04-14-13 02:21 PM
  5. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I don't think that would work. This is a good read and tells some of why they had to change from the OS they were using.

    History of QNX and Blackberry
    Money talks my friend, how many two year old devices did they sell? They can use any reasoning why they had to move, doesn't mean they were right.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 02:22 PM
  6. bobauckland's Avatar
    I don't think that would work. This is a good read and tells some of why they had to change from the OS they were using.

    History of QNX and Blackberry
    I just skimmed through, which part did you feel explained why they had to change from the OS they were using to an unproven OS based on 30 year old software?
    belfastdispatcher likes this.
    04-14-13 02:23 PM
  7. kbz1960's Avatar
    Money talks my friend, how many two year old devices did they sell? They can use any reasoning why they had to move, doesn't mean they were right.

    Posted via CB10
    I can't believe no one at RIM thought about this??????????????????? Yes they could be wrong. It looks like if they stayed the course they would already be non existent. Maybe that's why they made a change?

    How long do you think they would stay in business if they stayed the course? What was their stock worth not so long ago? $7 or less? If they kept doing the same things what do you think it would be worth now? I guess we'll never know now because that didn't happen.
    04-14-13 02:36 PM
  8. kbz1960's Avatar
    I just skimmed through, which part did you feel explained why they had to change from the OS they were using to an unproven OS based on 30 year old software?
    I never said they had to use an unproven OS based on 30 year old software. I said that's why they had to change the OS they were using.
    04-14-13 02:38 PM
  9. bobauckland's Avatar
    I can't believe no one at RIM thought about this??????????????????? Yes they could be wrong. It looks like if they stayed the course they would already be non existent. Maybe that's why they made a change?

    How long do you think they would stay in business if they stayed the course? What was their stock worth not so long ago? $7 or less? If they kept doing the same things what do you think it would be worth now? I guess we'll never know now because that didn't happen.
    Just curious, do you really, with 100% conviction, believe that an upgraded line of hardware for phones with specs that were decent, proper cameras on par with the competition, and investment into apps like photo sharing and video streaming, pushed as the ultimate communication tool, with a tablet being developed separately as a companion, do you feel that strategy would have been a flop?
    With total conviction?
    04-14-13 02:39 PM
  10. bobauckland's Avatar
    I never said they had to use an unproven OS based on 30 year old software. I said that's why they had to change the OS they were using.
    No fair enough but if it was felt that the 10 year old or whatever legacy OS was outdated surely it was lunacy to move to an OS built around 30 year old code?
    04-14-13 02:40 PM
  11. kill_9's Avatar
    What I find interesting is, in desperation, I started looking at paid email services with BES services.
    And from what I could find, it says that even if you get a BlackBerry Hosted Email service or whatever the term is, BB10 compatible, it will offer EAS support only, not the traditional BlackBerry POP support. So you still can't have the delete on handheld thing, even with the paid option.

    Not sure they will expand their service offerings when they seem intent on cutting most of them down.
    How do you come to think POP email is superior to EAS? Are you serious?

    Posted via CB10 from the BlackBerry Z10
    rthonpm, MarsupilamiX and web99 like this.
    04-14-13 02:52 PM
  12. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I tend to agree a lot with KBZ. We had RIM as a case study in my U, on how not to operate a business.......... That is an achievement...

    Bobauckland: can we also agree, that privacy is at least something desirable?

    I do not see the positive spin from Chris Umi, when he says that BBRY has to subsidize the legacy devices. It is also a rather old analysis, where the Z10 should not have launched.
    Of course with time, we have something like economies of scale that kick in, and some other economic effects, so the legacy devices could really be turning a profit right now, on the hardware side.
    But if they gave an ROI before is... something we could doubt.
    It is also entirely possible that the subsidies RIM gave, ended in a tax write off, so it wasn't that big of a deal. But we have to remember that BBRY had to lay off a lot of people to still be able to compete in the mobile landscape.



    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 02:53 PM
  13. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Look at Nokia and how well their strategy to drag Symbian through the times went for them.
    Just look at every single Phone Manufacturer, who had his own legacy OS.
    There is a reason, why nobody was able, to pull it off, to continue existing with their own legacy OS.
    So we can be pretty sure, that BBRY would not have been able to do it.
    Even THE pda operating system, WebOs died.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 04-21-13 at 06:56 AM.
    04-14-13 03:07 PM
  14. kbz1960's Avatar
    Just curious, do you really, with 100% conviction, believe that an upgraded line of hardware for phones with specs that were decent, proper cameras on par with the competition, and investment into apps like photo sharing and video streaming, pushed as the ultimate communication tool, with a tablet being developed separately as a companion, do you feel that strategy would have been a flop?
    With total conviction?
    Well even tough I do like my pb a lot I'm not beyond saying it has it's issues and short comings. I'm not sure if even a proper specs legacy OS BB would have any of those apps as how long has it been said that and by developers that they did not like making apps for BB's? I know Android is java based also but a different java? It is also evident no matter how awesome some of us think the BB PB combo is we are in a minority. Could that be different if the PB had a better start? Another thing we'll never know.

    I hope they choose the right path. They could've choose other options and I'm sure they did consider many.

    I hope they do bring back some of the legacy options and settings but maybe they are on the path of let developers fill those needs? I know they need to get more access to devs for some things too.
    04-14-13 03:11 PM
  15. kbz1960's Avatar
    No fair enough but if it was felt that the 10 year old or whatever legacy OS was outdated surely it was lunacy to move to an OS built around 30 year old code?
    We'll find out I guess. People have done stranger things.
    04-14-13 03:12 PM
  16. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    I believe that BB missed a great opportunity by not licensing BBM out. Had they developed for other platforms there might not have been a WhatsApp or a Kik. RIM believed, erroneously, that people would stay with BB because of BBM. As Apple grew and Android exploded, it was clearly evident that BBM was not enough to keep people with BB. Additionally, push email became the norm, and they missed out on developing BIS.

    I agree with some of your thoughts.
    I thought for sure they were going to create a cross platform messaging platform when they bought LiveProfile. But absolutely nothing has been said about it since then. The LiveProfile website hasn't been updated in over a year by the looks of it. However I still get updates to the LiveProfile app on my sgs3. It allows groups now, which is a feature users had been begging for from the beginning.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    04-14-13 03:24 PM
  17. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Even PantlessPenguin came to the thread, awesome!!!!!
    I had no idea about liveprofile... Have to look it up.

    Edit: just made a quick search... It has 15 million active users as of now. CrackBerry loved it. http://m.crackberry.com/liveprofile-...ble-blackberry

    And i found this article where they say it is BBRY's client. http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...041_324551.htm


    @Pantless: would you mind giving me a link, where it states that BBRY acquired it? Its really important for me

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 04-14-13 at 03:52 PM.
    04-14-13 03:35 PM
  18. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I thought for sure they were going to create a cross platform messaging platform when they bought LiveProfile. But absolutely nothing has been said about it since then. The LiveProfile website hasn't been updated in over a year by the looks of it. However I still get updates to the LiveProfile app on my sgs3. It allows groups now, which is a feature users had been begging for from the beginning.
    Which in a way supports the view that BB10 doesn't play as nice as we have been led to believe. If it's so easy to develop where are all the apps.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 03:57 PM
  19. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Look at Nokia and how well their strategy to drag Symbian through the times went for them.
    Just look at every single Phone Manufacturer, who had his own legacy OS.
    There is a reason, why nobody was able, to pull it off, to continue existing with their own OS.
    So we can be pretty sure, that BBRY would not have been able to do it.
    Even THE pda operating system, WebOs died.

    Posted via CB10
    Nokia was ready to move to meego and they did and then they did an u turn and went with WP7, biggest mistake they ever did.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 04:01 PM
  20. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    Even PantlessPenguin came to the thread, awesome!!!!!
    I had no idea about liveprofile... Have to look it up.

    Edit: just made a quick search... It has 15 million active users as of now. CrackBerry loved it. LiveProfile now available for BlackBerry | CrackBerry.com

    And i found this article where they say it is BBRY's client. http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...041_324551.htm


    @Pantless: would you mind giving me a link, where it states that BBRY acquired it? Its really important for me

    Posted via CB10
    It mentions it in this article: Did RIM shelve an idea to license BBM to competitors, carriers? - CNET Mobile

    Btw, is your username a reference to this guy?

    04-14-13 04:02 PM
  21. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    @ BelfastD: Do you think BBRY leads a conspiracy against themselves? Maybe to camouflage that their old OS was sooooo much better?
    Please go to the dev section, of these awesome forums, and ask them.... We have reliable sources here.

    Edit: I personally have to agree with you BelfastD, that it was their biggest mistake to let Meego go (^^), but in reality that reinforces the thesis, that no legacy OS (symbian for them) was powerfull enough to survive the shift in the market.

    @penguin, absolutely, it is.

    Posted via CB10
    pantlesspenguin likes this.
    04-14-13 04:06 PM
  22. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    Which in a way supports the view that BB10 doesn't play as nice as we have been led to believe. If it's so easy to develop where are all the apps.

    Posted via CB10
    I think that's apparent by how few and far between PB updates are. People said it was because RIM/BBRY was focusing on polishing BB10 and getting it ready to work much on the playbook. I even said over the summer that yeah QNX is awesome and everything, it's in cars and many other places...but how does that translate into a mobile OS? IMO I think it works really well. In my experience BB10 is really smooth. But it would be interesting to see how many of the features not included in the first version of BB10 were oversights or they just couldn't get those things to play nice with QNX. And it would definitely explain the lack of apps.
    04-14-13 04:13 PM
  23. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    @pantlesspenguin
    Is that your way, of saying that we, as users, should just have ignored the strawman "Qnx is everywhere!!!!!!"?
    If yes, I agree.

    I just read the cnet article. I am a little bit shocked, that Heins did not talk about liveprofile or the option of opening up the BlackBerry infrastructure to the carriers. What was mentioned in the article comes pretty close to my idea of a VPN for smartphones and cross platform BBM.



    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 04:35 PM
  24. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    @pantlesspenguin
    Is that your way, of saying that we, as users, should just have ignored the strawman "Qnx is everywhere!!!!!!"?
    If yes, I agree.

    I just read the cnet article. I am a little bit shocked, that Heins did not talk about liveprofile or the option of opening up the BlackBerry infrastructure to the carriers. What was mentioned in the article comes pretty close to my idea of a VPN for smartphones and cross platform BBM.



    Posted via CB10
    QNX is everywhere but embedded and doing specific tasks. I think it was BB to first give it an UI. Personally I think they underestimated the task big time.
    04-14-13 04:40 PM
  25. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    @pantlesspenguin
    Is that your way, of saying that we, as users, should just have ignored the strawman "Qnx is everywhere!!!!!!"?
    If yes, I agree.

    I just read the cnet article. I am a little bit shocked, that Heins did not talk about liveprofile or the option of opening up the BlackBerry infrastructure to the carriers. What was mentioned in the article comes pretty close to my idea of a VPN for smartphones and cross platform BBM.



    Posted via CB10
    Some people were getting super annoying with their "ZOMG QNX IS SO AWESOME IT FLIES SPACE SHUTTLES NO OTHER OS WILL BE ABLE TO TOUCH IT BLAH BLAH BLAH" but use as a mobile platform still remains to be seen.

    Nothing exists on Google about what happened AFTER RIM acquired LiveProfile, and yet it's still being updated. Someone at the company is still working on it in some capacity. I looked around in my app, the Google Play store page for it, and the LiveProfile website, and there's not a spec of BBRY branding anywhere.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    04-14-13 04:46 PM
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