10-07-13 12:17 PM
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  1. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    "BIS is typically more secure than accessing the Internet from home using an ISP, and is WAY more secure than using WiFi or BlueTooth."

    Say what you want in theory but BIS has never been hacked as far as I know. It might be "not that secure" in theory but in practice it's beyond the means of most people, including governments.
    04-13-13 06:27 AM
  2. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    For the moment, regarding the technical point of view, I would prefer it, if a real network engineer or a BES admin steps in, and tells us why I might be right, or why my new friend from Belfast could be right.

    I 'know' what I am talking about. I wouldn't dare to speak even a word in what we call forums, because every wrong that i could say, will be recorded for all of eternity and maybe even used in a meme, if that would not be the case.
    I can tell you that Emails, handled by BIS, are not really more secure, than any other Email service out there. One technical reason was given by another contributor.
    If you want more, I hope someone with a lot of IT background can help us here.

    2 people here appreciated the thought of a BBRY branded cloud, and said that they trust BBRY more than other companies and are willing to pay for it. Thank you for your input!

    Posted via CB10
    04-13-13 06:57 AM
  3. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Since I am still waiting, for some technically well educated IT specialist, I thought I'll do some digging myself.

    Name says it all.
    http://forums.crackberry.com/showthread.php?t=782858

    This one kicks in from the beginning
    http://forums.crackberry.com/showthread.php?t=769775

    This one has to be read through though.
    http://forums.crackberry.com/showthread.php?t=786880

    Conclusion:
    Dear BalfastD, I respect your commitment for BlackBerry, and how you contribute to the BlackBerry community. But please do us all a favour, and accept that the way you think BIS works, or what it does, is a complete missconception. I want to say this to everybody else, and not just single out BelfastD, who thinks that way.

    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 likes this.
    04-14-13 02:23 AM
  4. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Dear MarsupilamiX, no offense, but nobody seems to care about your thread.
    04-14-13 02:58 AM
  5. bobauckland's Avatar
    Since I am still waiting, for some technically well educated IT specialist, I thought I'll do some digging myself.

    Name says it all.
    http://forums.crackberry.com/showthread.php?t=782858

    This one kicks in from the beginning
    http://forums.crackberry.com/showthread.php?t=769775

    This one has to be read through though.
    http://forums.crackberry.com/showthread.php?t=786880

    Conclusion:
    Dear BalfastD, I respect your commitment for BlackBerry, and how you contribute to the BlackBerry community. But please do us all a favour, and accept that the way you think BIS works, or what it does, is a complete missconception. I want to say this to everybody else, and not just single out BelfastD, who thinks that way.

    Posted via CB10
    Three posts off CrackBerry with opinions don't really prove anything.
    Bottom line, BIS and legacy devices provided services for email, browsing and data management that no other solution provides.
    They should have been enhanced, not dropped.
    04-14-13 03:01 AM
  6. colinstone's Avatar
    Just about all smartphones are pretty similar in features and cost. BIS is/was BBRY 's USP. It enables providers to offer very good data plans eg T-Mobile UK Worldwide Unlimited Email and Internet on phone for 15 per month.
    04-14-13 03:16 AM
  7. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The question here is, what authority you would believe, BelfastD? Should it be CrackBerry Kevin? Maybe a phone call from Thorsten Heins himself?
    As long as it is not mr. Heins, I will do my best to find someone you believe/can believe/want to believe.

    Considering the point that no one ist interested in this thread... I will admit that I hoped to get more feedback on the idea themselves. And that the original intent, was not to kick off this BIS debate.
    The problem now is, that it is hard to prove something to someone who does not want to understand. And the 3 threads I posted contained more than "Opinions", I read every single one, and if you want to find the facts, you can.
    It is easy to believe. And you BelfastD, are exactly doing that. Believing. There exists a nice ideom, that I heard a long time ago and originates from Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach: "Whom who does not know, must believe"

    I still hope, that there are people on these forums who can give some feedback concerning new revenue streams for BlackBerry.

    Edit: my propositions are exactly that, enhancements to BIS, than can empower the user, in a new mobile landscape.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 03:52 AM
  8. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    The question here is, what authority you would believe, BelfastD? Should it be CrackBerry Kevin? Maybe a phone call from Thorsten Heins himself?
    As long as it is not mr. Heins, I will do my best to find someone you believe/can believe/want to believe.

    Considering the point that no one ist interested in this thread... I will admit that I hoped to get more feedback on the idea themselves. And that the original intent, was not to kick off this BIS debate.
    The problem now is, that it is hard to prove something to someone who does not want to understand. And the 3 threads I posted contained more than "Opinions", I read every single one, and if you want to find the facts, you can.
    It is easy to believe. And you BelfastD, are exactly doing that. Believing. There exists a nice ideom, that I heard a long time ago and originates from Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach: "Whom who does not know, must believe"

    I still hope, that there are people on these forums who can give some feedback concerning new revenue streams for BlackBerry.

    Edit: my propositions are exactly that, enhancements to BIS, than can empower the user, in a new mobile landscape.

    Posted via CB10
    I believe in a product's reputation. BIS has been proven over the years, it's not the most secure service in the world but it's way more secure than no BIS at all.

    Find me an example of BIS network being hacked.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 04:06 AM
  9. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    http://it.rockefeller.edu/index.php?...ckberry.besbis
    If you are concerned about privacy,with a BIS device everything operates on a public network. The chances of a hacker intercepting your data or compromising the device or different systems you access are elevated. Even though accessing the Internet from a BIS device is more secure than accessing the Internet from your home network and is more secure than using a public WiFi hotspot.

    http://dawn.com/2012/02/22/is-blackb...saging-secure/
    The Achilles? heel of BBM is that while PIN-to-PIN messages are encrypted using Triple DES, RIM adds a global cryptographic ?key?, which is shared between every BlackBerry device manufactured. This automatically allows a situation (in theory, at least) where, if the messages can be intercepted at the cellular service provider?s network and the hacker party manages to spoof the intended recipient?s PIN, any BlackBerry device can be used to decrypt all PIN-to-PIN messages sent by any other BlackBerry device.While this has never happened as yet, or at least has not been brought to our attention, the scenario lies entirely within the realm of possibility.

    ^quotes from the 2 links.

    These are my two main concerns, and also where i put some emphasis on it.
    That BIS is more secure, than no BIS, was never my point. Of course it is. That your browsing habits, will be more secure when you use BIS, should also be clear.

    But Emails, as long as you use TSL/SSL are in no way less secure than Emails going through the BIS server. There is no additional security to BIS here.
    BBM shares a common key on BIS, and that Governments are able to read them, is no secret.
    Because of that, it is entirely pointless to discuss if the BB servers themselves were ever hacked... I never claimed that, and would ne stupid to do so... Do we have one report, of Apple's App Store being hacked? Or the Xbox Live servers being hacked? (We know that Sony failed big times)
    I would never argue with you, that BIS adds at least a little layer of security, but Email and BBM's can be intercepted. I think that a lot of users overestimate the magnitude by a high margin.

    Also, if you would have taken my first post seriously, you would have understood, that I want exactly the same things you want, BelfastD. And that is also the reason why I am still interested in this conversation.

    You want additional security layers. I want the same thing. But i want far more than BIS. Something as powerful as BES for everyone, but without the MDM, because consumers just don't need it. Everything I proposed, goes in that direction. Seriously encrypted Emails, where YOU could choose the key (generate it in the password app) or one random key is created on the go.
    Opening up BBM and their Email service adds additional security to everybody who wants to use it, and with a critical mass of users, more and more of your communication will be encrypted and therefore automatically safer.
    This is also the limitation of BES. If the mail recipient, of a message you sent, is not on BES, the Mail would be "completely" insecure.
    A Cloud solution where everything is encrypted, every traffic, and stored on servers outside of the USA, would be slooooooow, but SECURE.

    I may be wrong, but these are things (except the cloud) that you want BelfastD. My ideas are a BIS 2.0 for the modern smartphone user. The hyper connected, well informed user, that is aware of privacy problems, and takes appropriate actions.
    If BBRY calls a solution like that BIS, or comes out in a few months with the "Blackberry secure device environment" (or what ever), for us, as BBRY users, there is no difference.

    If you are one of these users, you should support my ideas. And not fight them with reminiscence. We have the same goals, at least that is what I am thinking.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 08:20 AM
  10. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    http://it.rockefeller.edu/index.php?...ckberry.besbis
    If you are concerned about privacy,with a BIS device everything operates on a public network. The chances of a hacker intercepting your data or compromising the device or different systems you access are elevated. Even though accessing the Internet from a BIS device is more secure than accessing the Internet from your home network and is more secure than using a public WiFi hotspot.

    http://dawn.com/2012/02/22/is-blackb...saging-secure/
    The Achilles? heel of BBM is that while PIN-to-PIN messages are encrypted using Triple DES, RIM adds a global cryptographic ?key?, which is shared between every BlackBerry device manufactured. This automatically allows a situation (in theory, at least) where, if the messages can be intercepted at the cellular service provider?s network and the hacker party manages to spoof the intended recipient?s PIN, any BlackBerry device can be used to decrypt all PIN-to-PIN messages sent by any other BlackBerry device.While this has never happened as yet, or at least has not been brought to our attention, the scenario lies entirely within the realm of possibility.

    ^quotes from the 2 links.

    These are my two main concerns, and also where i put some emphasis on it.
    That BIS is more secure, than no BIS, was never my point. Of course it is. That your browsing habits, will be more secure when you use BIS, should also be clear.

    But Emails, as long as you use TSL/SSL are in no way less secure than Emails going through the BIS server. There is no additional security to BIS here.
    BBM shares a common key on BIS, and that Governments are able to read them, is no secret.
    Because of that, it is entirely pointless to discuss if the BB servers themselves were ever hacked... I never claimed that, and would ne stupid to do so... Do we have one report, of Apple's App Store being hacked? Or the Xbox Live servers being hacked? (We know that Sony failed big times)
    I would never argue with you, that BIS adds at least a little layer of security, but Email and BBM's can be intercepted. I think that a lot of users overestimate the magnitude by a high margin.

    Also, if you would have taken my first post seriously, you would have understood, that I want exactly the same things you want, BelfastD. And that is also the reason why I am still interested in this conversation.

    You want additional security layers. I want the same thing. But i want far more than BIS. Something as powerful as BES for everyone, but without the MDM, because consumers just don't need it. Everything I proposed, goes in that direction. Seriously encrypted Emails, where YOU could choose the key (generate it in the password app) or one random key is created on the go.
    Opening up BBM and their Email service adds additional security to everybody who wants to use it, and with a critical mass of users, more and more of your communication will be encrypted and therefore automatically safer.
    This is also the limitation of BES. If the mail recipient, of a message you sent, is not on BES, the Mail would be "completely" insecure.
    A Cloud solution where everything is encrypted, every traffic, and stored on servers outside of the USA, would be slooooooow, but SECURE.

    I may be wrong, but these are things (except the cloud) that you want BelfastD. My ideas are a BIS 2.0 for the modern smartphone user. The hyper connected, well informed user, that is aware of privacy problems, and takes appropriate actions.
    If BBRY calls a solution like that BIS, or comes out in a few months with the "Blackberry secure device environment" (or what ever), for us, as BBRY users, there is no difference.

    If you are one of these users, you should support my ideas. And not fight them with reminiscence. We have the same goals, at least that is what I am thinking.

    Posted via CB10
    That's called BES Express and it's available for free for Legacy devices for a limited number of users up to 100 or something like that)

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 08:47 AM
  11. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Here's the thing though, it's only gone in BB10, Legacy devices are still for sale, people still buy them (more than they bough BB10 devices last quarter actually) and as long as people buy them BB will sell them, they might even bring new models out. 70+ millions use BIS right now.

    So I cannot accept the line that BIS is gone until BB pulls the plug.
    Of course more people bought BB7 devices last quarter. The phone launched Jan 30, in a phased approach. Legacy devices are sold everywhere including corporarions and governments.
    An invalid point.

    Blackberry could barely manage development and support for one OS. To expect them to successfully manage, develop, and support two OS is an exercise in disappointment. For both OSs.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    04-14-13 09:01 AM
  12. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    BesX is nothing the normal user wants to configure. It is far too complicated, and not easily accessible. I am not saying that it is impossible, I used it myself. This is also why I like it so much and want to extend its user base to consumers.
    I also do not understand why they shouldn't make money, in providing these services, in an accessible way.
    It saves time, and broadens the user base. It adds even more value to the service.
    Take the stereotypical smartphone user, who does not care how it works, as long as it works. It is the kind of user, who would pay an IT student to set it up for him. Cater to that userbase, and you have a new business sector. It's that simple.
    It is why the iPhone worked. Because Apple gave the users what they wanted, in the most easy accessible way (the market has spoken and decided that, if iPhones a really that easy to use, should be a decision everyone makes for themself. In the same way BesX was not widely adopted)
    I also want BBRY to open up their messaging platforms, be it BBM or their Email service. BesX will be discontinued as well: http://www.zdnet.com/blackberrys-bes...im-7000005487/

    And it was never meant for the consumer....


    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 09:07 AM
  13. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Of course more people bought BB7 devices last quarter. The phone launched Jan 30, in a phased approach. Legacy devices are sold everywhere including corporarions and governments.
    An invalid point.

    Blackberry could barely manage development and support for one OS. To expect them to successfully manage, develop, and support two OS is an exercise in disappointment. For both OSs.
    They have a duty to do it for every customer that buys a legacy BlackBerry today and tomorrow. If they're not going to support them and develop for them for the next 3-4-5 years they should pull them off the shelves now.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 09:09 AM
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    BesX is nothing the normal user wants to configure. It is far too complicated, and not easily accessible. I am not saying that it is impossible, I used it myself. This is also why I like it so much and want to extend its user base to consumers.
    I also do not understand why they shouldn't make money, in providing these services, in an accessible way.
    It saves time, and broadens the user base. It adds even more value to the service.
    Take the stereotypical smartphone user, who does not care how it works, as long as it works. It is the kind of user, who would pay an IT student to set it up for him. Cater to that userbase, and you have a new business sector. It's that simple.
    It is why the iPhone worked. Because Apple gave the users what they wanted, in the most easy accessible way (the market has spoken and decided that, if iPhones a really that easy to use, should be a decision everyone makes for themself. In the same way BesX was not widely adopted)
    I also want BBRY to open up their messaging platforms, be it BBM or their Email service. BesX will be discontinued as well: http://www.zdnet.com/blackberrys-bes...im-7000005487/

    And it was never meant for the consumer....


    Posted via CB10
    Ok, but you want BlackBerry to charge for what apple more or less offers for free: email address and cloud minus the cross platform messenger client.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 09:12 AM
  15. kbz1960's Avatar
    The more I read these legacy threads the more I see stock holders thinking BIS was a cash cow and now they think that is why the stock price went down so much. Perhaps it has something to do with it but the stock price tanked before any BB10 device ever saw the light of day.
    04-14-13 09:24 AM
  16. qbnkelt's Avatar
    They have a duty to do it for every customer that buys a legacy BlackBerry today and tomorrow. If they're not going to support them and develop for them for the next 3-4-5 years they should pull them off the shelves now.

    Posted via CB10
    Come on. Be honest. How successful has BB been in R&D? How well have they developed solutions that could stand up to market leaders? And that was *one* OS. Look at the PB. How well have they developed for the PB in the two years now since it was launched?

    Of course they will support legacy. But develop for it? How many updates have there been for the 9900? For the 9810? Take if further back....for the 9800? For the 9700? That was three years. Do you honestly expect to have BB develop for the 9900 five years from now? Their support of Legacy will be little more than it is now.....it will be keeping the heart and lung machines plugged in.

    Given their past history, I would be gobsmacked if they do.
    04-14-13 09:25 AM
  17. bobauckland's Avatar
    What I find interesting is, in desperation, I started looking at paid email services with BES services.
    And from what I could find, it says that even if you get a BlackBerry Hosted Email service or whatever the term is, BB10 compatible, it will offer EAS support only, not the traditional BlackBerry POP support. So you still can't have the delete on handheld thing, even with the paid option.

    Not sure they will expand their service offerings when they seem intent on cutting most of them down.
    04-14-13 09:29 AM
  18. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Come on. Be honest. How successful has BB been in R&D? How well have they developed solutions that could stand up to market leaders? And that was *one* OS. Look at the PB. How well have they developed for the PB in the two years now since it was launched?

    Of course they will support legacy. But develop for it? How many updates have there been for the 9900? For the 9810? Take if further back....for the 9800? For the 9700? That was three years. Do you honestly expect to have BB develop for the 9900 five years from now? Their support of Legacy will be little more than it is now.....it will be keeping the heart and lung machines plugged in.

    Given their past history, I would be gobsmacked if they do.
    As long as a large enough number continue to buy Legacy and refuse to move to BB10 then they have no choice to develop for it and bring out new models. That's what I hope will happen. The lack of BIS is a big issue, on their facebook pages people are complaining daily, people that just wanted the latest BB and didn't know BIS was gone. In fact they didn't even know what BIS was, they just know the email they were used to is gone and their new BB is gulping data.
    04-14-13 09:31 AM
  19. bobauckland's Avatar
    The more I read these legacy threads the more I see stock holders thinking BIS was a cash cow and now they think that is why the stock price went down so much. Perhaps it has something to do with it but the stock price tanked before any BB10 device ever saw the light of day.
    Do you realise you seem to see stocks everywhere?
    As a consumer I don't really care what the financial impact, profit or loss, for BlackBerry is with BIS and related services.
    I do care that I don't have that functionality any more.

    The fact that I'd have happily paid for that is what makes it all the harder to understand.
    04-14-13 09:31 AM
  20. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The funny thing is, I never intended that thread to be dragged down, to a legacy lover thread. I really hoped that I could promote my ideas and gather new ones. Apparently, the only things I earned, were reminiscing BIS fans, unable to let it go.
    I also think, that BBRY needs ideas from outside, considering they have 50% new users with OS10 devices, that do not care one bit about BIS.

    http://www.zixencryption.com/ZixMail.asp

    http://www.voltage.com/products/securemail/

    http://www.watchguard.com/solutions/...encryption.asp

    I want them to implement a solution like these, but for the consumer. Where BBRY does the work. And because they add value, they can sell it.
    Why are you paying for BIS? Apple gives you the same security for Emails, as does BIS.... (i know that you like the data compression and the secure browsing, but your question is as usefull as mine)

    And QbnKelt came to my thread!!!!!!!!!!! I think I can die in peace now...

    Ps: seriously, the reasons why they need to abandon BIS have been stated in 1000+ posts. What I am just unable to understand is, why it is still so hard to accept? Why is it so hard to accept, that the market has moved on? It is time to think about new concepts, not time to revert history.
    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 09:45 AM
  21. kbz1960's Avatar
    Do you realise you seem to see stocks everywhere?
    As a consumer I don't really care what the financial impact, profit or loss, for BlackBerry is with BIS and related services.
    I do care that I don't have that functionality any more.

    The fact that I'd have happily paid for that is what makes it all the harder to understand.
    Yes. I guess for you it goes back to why can't they get BB10 to work with BIS or why are they not making it work with BIS? When I see someone saying they miss BIS or want BIS and then say it was a cash cow for BBRY then for them it sounds like they are only worried about their stock.
    04-14-13 09:56 AM
  22. qbnkelt's Avatar
    As long as a large enough number continue to buy Legacy and refuse to move to BB10 then they have no choice to develop for it and bring out new models. That's what I hope will happen. The lack of BIS is a big issue, on their facebook pages people are complaining daily, people that just wanted the latest BB and didn't know BIS was gone. In fact they didn't even know what BIS was, they just know the email they were used to is gone and their new BB is gulping data.
    We will see, in due course, what kind of development there is when they haven't managed anything beyond 7.1 and still are barely able to support the PB.

    Be that as it may.....I believe that the only people surprised by the use of data in BB10 are those who never used anything other than BB. Users beyond the diminishing number of legacy BB subscribers have known for a long time that data is to be watched. BB10 devices use no more data than my non BB devices. Right now I'm at 677MB on my account, divided at around 530ish on my Z10 and the rest on my iPhone. This is because I have been trying to use my Z10 as my primary device for the last three weeks. This is right on par witih my use last month.

    So.....as far as data.....the only sticker shock are mostly those individuals who were used to legacy devices. The rest of the smartphone user base has moved along, and has done so over the last couple of years.
    04-14-13 09:56 AM
  23. qbnkelt's Avatar
    The funny thing is, I never intended that thread to be dragged down, to a legacy lover thread. I really hoped that I could promote my ideas and gather new ones. Apparently, the only things I earned, were reminiscing BIS fans, unable to let it go.
    I also think, that BBRY needs ideas from outside, considering they have 50% new users with OS10 devices, that do not care one bit about BIS.

    ZixMail Desktop Email Encryption | ZixEncryption.com

    Voltage SecureMail Email Encryption, Email Data Protection , Secure Messaging and Key Management Solutions | Voltage Security

    Email Encryption Solutions | Secure Email Encryption - WatchGuard Technologies

    I want them to implement a solution like these, but for the consumer. Where BBRY does the work. And because they add value, they can sell it.
    Why are you paying for BIS? Apple gives you the same security for Emails, as does BIS.... (i know that you like the data compression and the secure browsing, but your question is as usefull as mine)

    And QbnKelt came to my thread!!!!!!!!!!! I think I can die in peace now...

    Ps: seriously, the reasons why they need to abandon BIS have been stated in 1000+ posts. What I am just unable to understand is, why it is still so hard to accept? Why is it so hard to accept, that the market has moved on? It is time to think about new concepts, not time to revert history.
    Posted via CB10
    oh dear Lord, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't visit your thread ever ever ever ever ever ever ever again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We want you around a very very very very very very long time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    (but you are too sweet!!!! )
    kbz1960 and MarsupilamiX like this.
    04-14-13 09:58 AM
  24. Chicago777Guy's Avatar
    Good article but I think you missed the most important feature for revenue generation for BlackBerry 10 i.e. Balance.
    Corporates would love this... Android can never do that because they don't control OS and even if Google did that it will always be second guessed because underlying is a open source code .Apple can copy it in future but I think it will take them some time..in the mean time BlackBerry can make enterprises comfortable with using it for not only BB10 but also iOS and Android.

    Posted via CB10
    04-14-13 10:01 AM
  25. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Lol, did you really think a thread about how BB can squeeze more money out of us was gonna be popular?
    04-14-13 10:06 AM
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