09-28-14 11:44 PM
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  1. lawguyman's Avatar
    If BB10 is beating a several generation old phone, that is no accomplishment. The Nexus 4, a year old phone beats my Z30 handily on load times. There is no way to characterize this as better than native.

    This is on the latest leak 19xx.

    Posted via CB10
    M_Portiss likes this.
    12-26-13 07:47 PM
  2. Rudy Kruger's Avatar
    If BB10 is beating a several generation old phone, that is no accomplishment. The Nexus 4, a year old phone beats my Z30 handily on load times. There is no way to characterize this as better than native.

    This is on the latest leak 19xx.

    Posted via CB10
    The several generations old SGS2 (at least the I9100 international variant with the dual-core 1.2 GHz Exynos SoC) is a phone as powerful as the Blackberry Z10. Even though it is 2 generations old, the 1.2GHz Exynos performs on par with the dual-core 1.5 GHz Qualcomm Snapdragon S4 Krait (MSM8960) when installed in Android phones (example being the dual core HTC One X released in North America).

    The SoC in the Nexus 4 (quad-core Snapdragon S4 Pro APQ8064) is a more powerful engine than the dual core Snapdragon S4 Pro MSM8960T in the Z30; it beats it in every test (http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Qualcomm-Sna...lus-(MSM8960)).

    So comparing Nexus 4 versus Z30 is not an apples to apples comparison, while comparing SGS2 i9100 with Z10 is an almost direct comparison.
    Omnitech likes this.
    12-26-13 09:43 PM
  3. lawguyman's Avatar
    The several generations old SGS2 (at least the I9100 international variant with the dual-core 1.2 GHz Exynos SoC) is a phone as powerful as the Blackberry Z10. Even though it is 2 generations old, the 1.2GHz Exynos performs on par with the dual-core 1.5 GHz Qualcomm Snapdragon S4 Krait (MSM8960) when installed in Android phones (example being the dual core HTC One X released in North America).

    The SoC in the Nexus 4 (quad-core Snapdragon S4 Pro APQ8064) is a more powerful engine than the dual core Snapdragon S4 Pro MSM8960T in the Z30; it beats it in every test (http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Qualcomm-Sna...lus-(MSM8960)).

    So comparing Nexus 4 versus Z30 is not an apples to apples comparison, while comparing SGS2 i9100 with Z10 is an almost direct comparison.
    The only problem with what you state here is that the Z30 has the MSM8960 "T Pro" version of that chip, which is miles ahead of the non-T Pro version for reasons including it has a quad core Adreno processor and it is clocked at a higher speed. You seem to understand this in part. You point out the "T" (but not "pro") but then link to a benchmark for the vanilla MSM8960. This is a really bad comparison. If you compare the Nexus 4's processor with the vanilla MSM8960 (not found in the Z30) you will see that the differences are mostly in graphics performance. Even though I don't like synthetic benchmarks, you will have to agree that the differences between the two would shrink when considering the higher clock speed and quad core graphics on the T Pro version.

    All this because I dispute the claim that BB10 is "better than native?" Come on now. You are all taking this too far. I haven't even pushed the issue of all the Apps that don't even work. All I was focusing on are load times.
    12-27-13 05:58 AM
  4. ofutur's Avatar
    There is one more factor to consider when comparing user experiences and it's the available APIs. BB10's Android implementation still doesn't offer everything which is available on an Android and that makes it a worse Android device for some people. People who want to connect their phones to accessories per example.
    Last edited by ofutur; 12-27-13 at 10:31 AM.
    12-27-13 10:10 AM
  5. dragon1234's Avatar
    There is one more factor to consider when comparing user experiences and it's the available APIs. BB10 still doesn't offer everything which is available on an Android and that makes it a worse Android device for some people. People who want to connect their phones to accessories per example.
    I hate the android OS, the BlackBerry 10 OS even the PlayBook OS is far better.
    Give me the android apps, but I keep the BlackBerry 10 OS vs any android phone.



    Posted via CB10
    12-27-13 10:25 AM
  6. ofutur's Avatar
    I hate the android OS, the BlackBerry 10 OS even the PlayBook OS is far better.
    Give me the android apps, but I keep the BlackBerry 10 OS vs any android phone.
    I was talking about the android VM, but that wasn't very clear in my statement.
    12-27-13 10:31 AM
  7. tickerguy's Avatar
    YMMV and all that.

    I find a lot of the people on the other side of this rather amusing -- and this is coming from a guy who went to Android when Windows Mobile (the original) died out -- back around 1.6 I think -- and have ported Android a couple of times, mostly to get a version I couldn't get from a carrier on a given device.

    The idea that all Android devices run all the apps seamlessly is nonsense. They don't. You only need to read some of the reviews to see that, or actually use some of the devices.

    One of the big bug-a-boos for Android is that it does not handle long-running apps well at all, unless you leave the focus on them. Then it's fine, but that belies the premise of doing multiple things at once.

    Last summer I had occasion in my car to do that, as we got waylaid on a trip and I needed to change plans. Specifically, I needed to find a hotel in a place where I didn't have a decent feel for what was available as I hadn't been in that part of the country for a few years. I'd had a somewhat-similar situation arise when I was using my Samsung Android handheld the year previous and quickly gave up, grabbed the laptop, tethered it and did it that way.

    On the Zed is was easy, because I could leave open a mapping app, the Hilton app, the browser and a couple of other things and flip back and forth between them seamlessly without losing where I was in any of them or having to start over and log in again.

    The Android device was utterly incapable of this because it closes things out from under you whenever it needs or wants to and poof -- there goes your not-completed reservation, forcing you to start over. The Zed leaves you in control of that, manages the resources to do it, and within a few minutes I had a hotel room and was all set.

    And that was (mostly!) using Android apps in the world where we still had to wrap them in BAR files and sideload them, AND I had to put up with what was materially-worse-than-native performance too. But it was still something that my Android handset running "native" could not reasonably do at all using the exact same apps.

    Now I both have the capability and the performance. There are some apps that load a bit faster than my SGSII and some that load slower. But once loaded the former deficiency rate (where you'd rather use the native device) is now extremely rare and it continues to get better.

    If BlackBerry manages to pull of bringing the I/O performance up to somewhere approaching native level, and I suspect they will, that one potential deficiency point that does occur in some cases will disappear along with the the rest of them.

    I suspect that is a lock-contention issue between the VM and the underlying OS, incidentally, and should be reasonably-easy to address.

    BTW one of the big fixes in 1925 was in the video driver interface; there was both a (quite-serious) performance improvement in the display code and a specific buffering bug that I had managed to tickle in a few instances with Android apps that led to screens not refreshing. Both are fixed in 1925; it was partially fixed in 12xx but not completely. It makes a BIG difference in apps like Fox News and similar things.
    ital1, Rudy Kruger, Bilaal and 2 others like this.
    12-27-13 10:46 AM
  8. meltbox360's Avatar
    YMMV and all that.

    I find a lot of the people on the other side of this rather amusing -- and this is coming from a guy who went to Android when Windows Mobile (the original) died out -- back around 1.6 I think -- and have ported Android a couple of times, mostly to get a version I couldn't get from a carrier on a given device.

    The idea that all Android devices run all the apps seamlessly is nonsense. They don't. You only need to read some of the reviews to see that, or actually use some of the devices.

    One of the big bug-a-boos for Android is that it does not handle long-running apps well at all, unless you leave the focus on them. Then it's fine, but that belies the premise of doing multiple things at once.

    Last summer I had occasion in my car to do that, as we got waylaid on a trip and I needed to change plans. Specifically, I needed to find a hotel in a place where I didn't have a decent feel for what was available as I hadn't been in that part of the country for a few years. I'd had a somewhat-similar situation arise when I was using my Samsung Android handheld the year previous and quickly gave up, grabbed the laptop, tethered it and did it that way.

    On the Zed is was easy, because I could leave open a mapping app, the Hilton app, the browser and a couple of other things and flip back and forth between them seamlessly without losing where I was in any of them or having to start over and log in again.

    The Android device was utterly incapable of this because it closes things out from under you whenever it needs or wants to and poof -- there goes your not-completed reservation, forcing you to start over. The Zed leaves you in control of that, manages the resources to do it, and within a few minutes I had a hotel room and was all set.

    And that was (mostly!) using Android apps in the world where we still had to wrap them in BAR files and sideload them, AND I had to put up with what was materially-worse-than-native performance too. But it was still something that my Android handset running "native" could not reasonably do at all using the exact same apps.

    Now I both have the capability and the performance. There are some apps that load a bit faster than my SGSII and some that load slower. But once loaded the former deficiency rate (where you'd rather use the native device) is now extremely rare and it continues to get better.

    If BlackBerry manages to pull of bringing the I/O performance up to somewhere approaching native level, and I suspect they will, that one potential deficiency point that does occur in some cases will disappear along with the the rest of them.

    I suspect that is a lock-contention issue between the VM and the underlying OS, incidentally, and should be reasonably-easy to address.

    BTW one of the big fixes in 1925 was in the video driver interface; there was both a (quite-serious) performance improvement in the display code and a specific buffering bug that I had managed to tickle in a few instances with Android apps that led to screens not refreshing. Both are fixed in 1925; it was partially fixed in 12xx but not completely. It makes a BIG difference in apps like Fox News and similar things.
    Is the video driver also improved for native apps? It would explain why it feels a lot smoother than it did before in a lot of places.

    Posted via CB10
    12-27-13 07:21 PM
  9. ofutur's Avatar
    Did you guys notice that on 1925, the transfer queue says "BlackBerry World BBM"? The source is indicated first... Sideloaded apps just indicate the name of the app and I guess we'll soon see "Google Play Google Maps"
    mathking606 likes this.
    12-27-13 07:40 PM
  10. lawguyman's Avatar
    Did you guys notice that on 1925, the transfer queue says "BlackBerry World BBM"? The source is indicated first... Sideloaded apps just indicate the name of the app and I guess we'll soon see "Google Play Google Maps"
    Boy, I hope that you're right. But, I now really doubt it.

    I am guessing that whatever builds that were out there with Play support were compatibility testing builds. My guess is that BlackBerry did not pass the required compatibility tests and this is a no-go. At least for now (not in 10.2.1).

    Posted via CB10
    12-27-13 08:39 PM
  11. tickerguy's Avatar
    The block on Play is intentional. There is no legal reason for them to include the stub framework; any violation would not be theirs, but yours. Witness Amazon's Kindles that run their own Android -- they can be rooted and if rooted you can load Play Services and it works. So how is it that Google hasn't sued Amazon? Simple -- Amazon didn't do anything and neither they, or BlackBerry, is under any legal obligation to prevent you from loading something.

    But -- there is every business reason for BlackBerry to block it, at least there has been -- and that's simple. If you can load paid apps you might do that instead of buying them on their store. That is, the business reason for doing so is simply to protect a revenue source.

    If they decide to stop doing that, or cut some sort of deal with Google then this all goes "poof". That's step #1. Step #2, of course, would be to actually formally include the Google framework -- that​ would require Google's formal blessing.
    laketrout73 likes this.
    12-27-13 10:31 PM
  12. butterbean1983's Avatar
    As long as we are continuing to wait for 10.2.1 to become official, this is all purely speculation. I do see that a few of you have educated opinions and I respect that, but, there is no final word on this until the official release. There are possible reasons to prevent Play access on BlackBerry 10, there are also good reasons to keep it contained until BlackBerry wants it to be public. Google and BlackBerry could be forming a secret partnership in which both companies would profit from app sales through Google Play on BlackBerry 10. This would be highly sensitive information if it were true, and neither party would want the public to know about it at the wrong time.

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    12-28-13 01:33 AM
  13. meltbox360's Avatar
    So what's preventing BlackBerry from implementing their own GSF replacement that's compatible? Just a matter of whipping it all together and having all the features there no?

    Posted via CB10
    12-28-13 01:47 AM
  14. butterbean1983's Avatar
    Seeing as how gsf is a system app, it probably won't run unless it's taken from the source code. The "stub" that's there now is probably all that BlackBerry is able to produce without a full source code. Then again, there are complete source codes available online. But seeing as how they are competitors, it's probably illegal for BlackBerry to implement Google services without google's permission.

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    12-28-13 04:25 AM
  15. tickerguy's Avatar
    Seeing as how gsf is a system app, it probably won't run unless it's taken from the source code. The "stub" that's there now is probably all that BlackBerry is able to produce without a full source code. Then again, there are complete source codes available online. But seeing as how they are competitors, it's probably illegal for BlackBerry to implement Google services without google's permission.

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    The stub has literally nothing in it -- no java code at all. Just declared intents and resources. It's trivially extractable if you want to look at it (I did, and did.)
    12-28-13 09:45 AM
  16. lawguyman's Avatar
    I think the stub was put there so that apps that call on GSF don't crash. That does not mean that they will work, they just won't crash.

    I don't see the stub as a prelude to anything more. As it is, it serves a function and that may never change.


    Posted via CB10
    12-28-13 10:58 AM
  17. Omnitech's Avatar
    All I want is for gmail to run properly. If I can do that, I'm good. Read a thread about it, way too technical for me. Anyone help?

    First of all, Google uses its proprietary apps to lock users into its ecosystem.

    Even though Google claims Android is "open source", in reality what they have done in recent years is forked their proprietary apps from the open source version, and tied them intimately with their proprietary frameworks, so that if you want to use those apps, you cannot use a "generic" version of Android any more, you have to get roped into the whole suite of intrusive Google services. It's all or nothing, basically.

    Have you seen this?

    Email for Google Gmail(Nfc HUB-Connected BBM-Enabled) - BlackBerry World
    12-29-13 11:51 PM
  18. quizm's Avatar
    Does Google care much about BlackBerry? Not sure. If porting key apps over to bb10 is that simple what stops BlackBerry from commissioning a bbw compatible program... ? Something is amiss.

    Posted via CB10
    12-30-13 12:18 AM
  19. grahamf's Avatar
    What I'm wondering is if Blackberry actually can get Google to certify their phones.
    Android OS is free, so Google is not making money there. They're making money on in-app advertising (and app revenue), in which case it doesn't really matter if the OS is theirs or not. Aside from fundamental incapabilities that block certain types of apps (widgets, launchers), there's really nothing stopping Blackberry from being another revenue source for Google.
    12-31-13 05:25 PM
  20. tickerguy's Avatar
    I think the stub was put there so that apps that call on GSF don't crash. That does not mean that they will work, they just won't crash.

    I don't see the stub as a prelude to anything more. As it is, it serves a function and that may never change.


    Posted via CB10
    Nope - they in fact crash.

    There's no reason to have it there as there are no code endpoints in the file. If there were then it could be as you described, but there aren't.

    On the other hand if the intent is to prevent sideloading of GSF....
    12-31-13 05:37 PM
  21. meltbox360's Avatar
    I can see how each side wouldn't necessarily want the other to take something. If Google gives BlackBerry GSF and then BlackBerry still blocks gplay and has everyone sell through BBW then the only revenues Google will see will be from android app ads on BlackBerry. That's much less per user than if the users used android directly. BlackBerry doesn't want to lose BlackBerry World revenue to gplay either nor do they want people using a different ad framework.

    Posted via CB10
    12-31-13 05:49 PM
  22. WJF84's Avatar
    So we already have access to Google Play through Snap and others.

    Shall we just close the thread?

    Posted via CB10
    12-31-13 06:15 PM
  23. BB_X's Avatar
    So, can I play Candy Crush on my Z10?

    12-31-13 06:53 PM
  24. BrooklynBerryAddict's Avatar
    Yes you can. Side load snap to your BlackBerry and then open it search for candy crush and install.

    You will need gplay login

    Posted via CB10
    12-31-13 07:05 PM
  25. Uzi's Avatar
    So, can I play Candy Crush on my Z10?

    no if you on stl 1

    Posted via CB10
    12-31-13 09:43 PM
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