09-29-14 12:44 AM
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  1. butterbean1983's Avatar
    All I want is for gmail to run properly. If I can do that, I'm good. Read a thread about it, way too technical for me. Anyone help?

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    12-26-13 01:34 AM
  2. meltbox360's Avatar
    All I want is for gmail to run properly. If I can do that, I'm good. Read a thread about it, way too technical for me. Anyone help?

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    What features are missing in BB10? Just out of curiosity since I'm not terribly demanding on email features.

    Posted via CB10
    12-26-13 01:48 AM
  3. butterbean1983's Avatar
    Really not so much that features are missing with native email support, just that I like having an app to handle email. I'm trying some android email clients now to see if any work good.

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    meltbox360 likes this.
    12-26-13 02:01 AM
  4. grahamf's Avatar
    Really not so much that features are missing with native email support, just that I like having an app to handle email. I'm trying some android email clients now to see if any work good.

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    An app... that handles... email?
    12-26-13 02:26 AM
  5. XP7051V3's Avatar
    All I want is for gmail to run properly. If I can do that, I'm good. Read a thread about it, way too technical for me. Anyone help?

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    What does the Gmail app do that your hub does not?

    Posted via CB10
    12-26-13 02:32 AM
  6. meltbox360's Avatar
    What does the Gmail app do that your hub does not?

    Posted via CB10
    He just prefers to have a separate app. Whatever makes him happy I guess haha.

    Posted via CB10
    12-26-13 03:25 AM
  7. dustmalik's Avatar
    All I want is for gmail to run properly. If I can do that, I'm good. Read a thread about it, way too technical for me. Anyone help?

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    All thanks to Moneytoo, Gmail runs really well on BB10 with login. Go to the this thread to find out how to make it work
    How to fix Gmail, Ingress and other Google Account dependent apps.

    Posted via CB10 using my Gorgeous Z10
    Last edited by dustmalik; 01-04-14 at 05:02 AM.
    12-26-13 03:40 AM
  8. butterbean1983's Avatar
    I read that thread, couldn't understand most of it and it basically links back and forth with another thread. Click on a link in one thread, it takes you to another, with no clear answers that I could understand. If I gotta download a program to my computer and recode an apk just to get it running, that's way too much work.

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    12-26-13 04:15 AM
  9. butterbean1983's Avatar
    An app... that handles... email?
    Yes. I guess I'm basically used to the ui of gmail, just like I'm used to the look and feel of other apps like facebook and whatnot.

    Posted with CB10 via Q10 running 10.2.1.1259
    12-26-13 04:31 AM
  10. lawguyman's Avatar
    But many apps don't run precisely because they lack access to Play Services. So it doesn't make sense to say BlackBerry's Android runtime is incompatible because many apps don't work.

    Clearly Google doesn't base "compatibility" on whether an Android runtime can execute apps that require Play Services (since they won't even give you access to Play Services until AFTER you've proven your runtime is compatible). If they did, it would be an impossible catch 22 (e.g.: you must be compatible to get Play Services, but you must have Play Services to be compatible...)



    CB10 : Z10 STL100-3 10.2.0.1803
    This is the case with some apps but not all apps. For example, I have found that apps that use the camera rarely work properly. Some apps taken from Amazon app store and should not be GSF dependent also don't work.

    Many/most apps do work but if I was in Google's shoes I would not give BlackBerry a pass on compatibility. BlackBerry should be as compatible as everyone else if it wants access to Google Services.






    Posted via CB10
    atjovic likes this.
    12-26-13 07:31 AM
  11. ctousley819's Avatar
    I have no idea whether Google Play and Play Services are coming. Obviously this thread started as speculation with a build of .14XX, and .1925 was just leaked and there was no Google Play or Play Services. That being said, even if we are going to get GPS, they would not be in a leak that we get.

    I do think BlackBerry may be trying to meet the necessary requirements to get GPS. However, IMO the ramifications of anything related to GPS going out in a leak are huge. I think this may play into the "crackdown" on leaks. If anything gets out regarding GPS and Google Play before either an announcement from Google and/or BlackBerry, I think it would actually kill any deal between the two. I honestly don't think we will see anything for Google Play and Play Services before and official announcment. And even then I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get any leaks that have it until an official OS release that includes it. I really do think that IF, and I do mean IF, anything is in the works for this, both Google and BlackBerry will want to make sure it is as smooth as possible.

    I for one would be happy to see Google Play and Services, but it's not why I got my Z10. If they get it, I might be able to get some converts here at work to come over to BlackBerry.
    12-26-13 12:01 PM
  12. tickerguy's Avatar
    Here's the problem you have right now -- in the /system/app directory for the Player is a file called "GSF.apk" and it contains this, among other things:

    <manifest android:sharedUserId="android.uid.system" android:versionCode="17" and
    roid:versionName="4.2.2-player-2.0.0_dev.eng.SER" package="com.google.android.gsf"^M
    xmlns:android="http://schemas.android.com/apk/res/android">^M

    See that name? That's important, because that's the name of the REAL Google Services Framework.

    This is what the real one looks like:
    <manifest android:sharedUserId="com.google.uid.shared" android:versionCode="17" a
    ndroid:versionName="4.2.2-573038" android:sharedUserLabel="@string/sharedUserLabe
    l" package="com.google.android.gsf"^M

    You can't load that one because the first is already on the system and it's write-protected since it's in system space.

    There is no code in the BlackBerry-provided file. There are resources present and declared intents, but no code. Of course in the real GSF there is a bunch of code -- the code that performs all the framework services.

    Ps: No, the obvious -- simply changing the name of the application to evade the collision -- does not work.
    12-26-13 12:50 PM
  13. MyFirstOwnUsername's Avatar
    Here's the problem you have right now -- in the /system/app directory for the Player is a file called "GSF.apk" and it contains this, among other things:

    <manifest android:sharedUserId="android.uid.system" android:versionCode="17" and
    roid:versionName="4.2.2-player-2.0.0_dev.eng.SER" package="com.google.android.gsf"^M
    xmlns:android="http://schemas.android.com/apk/res/android">^M

    See that name? That's important, because that's the name of the REAL Google Services Framework.

    This is what the real one looks like:
    <manifest android:sharedUserId="com.google.uid.shared" android:versionCode="17" a
    ndroid:versionName="4.2.2-573038" android:sharedUserLabel="@string/sharedUserLabe
    l" package="com.google.android.gsf"^M

    You can't load that one because the first is already on the system and it's write-protected since it's in system space.

    There is no code in the BlackBerry-provided file. There are resources present and declared intents, but no code. Of course in the real GSF there is a bunch of code -- the code that performs all the framework services.

    Ps: No, the obvious -- simply changing the name of the application to evade the collision -- does not work.
    So possible solution: change the namespace of a working gsf and modify play store so it will check the new namespace for the gsf
    12-26-13 12:59 PM
  14. MyFirstOwnUsername's Avatar
    Nothing lol, I'm good with snap, it's forever going to be better than gplay

    Posted via CB10
    As soon as we can buy apps and use bought apps with snap, this is right.
    12-26-13 01:01 PM
  15. tickerguy's Avatar
    So possible solution: change the namespace of a working gsf and modify play store so it will check the new namespace for the gsf
    No. Read the last line of my post.
    12-26-13 01:17 PM
  16. EOSummer's Avatar
    Don't mean to stir the pot again, and I know it's been discussed here before, but the fluidity of the Android apps running on the 10.2.1 branch scares me a little bit. Almost feels like I have gone back to my GS3 as the apps feel so native. I don't see any performance gaps at all when it comes to games, which allures me into android app store as they have the same apps for cheaper or even for free. It would be interesting to see how the release of 10.2.1 will affect the revenue stream of BlackBerry developers.

    Posted via CB10
    12-26-13 01:20 PM
  17. tickerguy's Avatar
    Yep.

    Benchmark-wise the current leak benchmarks close to the SGS II, but in terms of graphics it's much better than that, and of course for games that's what matters. 3d runs around 15fps, 2d around 60. Not bad for a little handheld.

    And remember on those CPU and I/O benchmarks the Android runtime cannot block other things that are running in BB10 at the same time; what amount of overhead that presents (and thus dampens the scores) I don't know, but I bet it's significant, especially for dynamic memory allocation.

    BlackBerry has come a long way in making the Android experience better than native. And that's on the Z-10 -- on the 30, which is materially faster out-of-the-box it should be better -- handily -- than all but the best-and-newest Android handsets.
    Last edited by tickerguy; 12-26-13 at 01:47 PM.
    12-26-13 01:36 PM
  18. lawguyman's Avatar
    Yep.

    Benchmark-wise the current leak benchmarks close to the SGS II, but in terms of graphics it's much better than that, and of course for games that's what matters. 3d runs around 15fps, 2d around 60. Not bad for a little handheld.

    And remember on those CPU and I/O benchmarks the Android runtime cannot block other things that are running in BB10 at the same time; what amount of overhead that presents (and thus dampens the scores) I don't know, but I bet it's significant, especially for dynamic memory allocation.

    BlackBerry has come a long way in making the Android experience better than native. And that's on the Z-10 -- on the 30, which is materially faster out-of-the-box it should be better -- handily -- than all but the best-and-newest Android handsets.
    I'm not sure what you can possibly mean by saying that the experience is "better than native." My wife has a Nexus 4, which is far from a top of the line Android phone. Every app that I tried loads around six seconds slower on the Z30 than it does on the Nexus 4.

    Don't get me wrong, the apps work okay and run fine but it is wrong to spread that kind of disinformation.

    Posted via CB10
    12-26-13 02:42 PM
  19. tickerguy's Avatar
    I'm not sure what you can possibly mean by saying that the experience is "better than native." My wife has a Nexus 4, which is far from a top of the line Android phone. Every app that I tried loads around six seconds slower on the Z30 than it does on the Nexus 4.

    Don't get me wrong, the apps work okay and run fine but it is wrong to spread that kind of disinformation.

    Posted via CB10
    Six seconds eh?

    That's funny, Fox News loads in approximately (plus or minus 1 or thereabouts) six seconds from the time I select it on a "cold" load. If I has a current cache it's a bit faster.

    So let me see if I get this right -- your wife's Nexus is a time machine?

    PS: I have a SGS II and III here, plus a Samsung Tab 2 7.0 along with a bunch of "lesser" Android devices. The objective benchmarks put the performance of the Z10 slightly-below (in aggregate) the SGS II, with the notable penalty being in memory allocation and, to a lesser extent, CPU and I/O. All three are penalized by not being exclusive-lockable by the benchmarking apps on BB10 where they can be (and are) on Android phones. For graphics this is not the case since BB10 does not provide graphics resource to non-focused apps, so they get the whole thing -- and there the numbers are clean.

    For what it's worth prior to the 12xx 10.2.1 leak it was best-described as "chunky." Not any more.
    Last edited by tickerguy; 12-26-13 at 03:35 PM.
    12-26-13 03:18 PM
  20. tickerguy's Avatar
    BTW I just ran the Vellamo benchmarks (Qualcomm's stuff) and the Z10 rates above the Galaxy S3 and HTC One X on "metal" (processor) performance. It is below the Nexus (just below) and of course materially below the S4 and Note 3 (the latter being the current "best of breed.") It is less-impressive in the HTML5 (browser) benchmarks but it's running the Android browser in the VM rather than running the NATIVE BB10 browser for those tests and thus is being penalized by two layers of indirection.

    Note that again, there's no preemption prevention in these benchmarks and in fact I got a BBM message inbound while they were running, which was handled and the TOAST came up for it.

    I don't have a Z30 but given the 30s numerically-superior performance I would not be surprised to see it approach the S4's performance levels -- and again, these are for ANDROID apps, not native ones.
    mnc76 likes this.
    12-26-13 03:45 PM
  21. lawguyman's Avatar
    Six seconds eh?

    That's funny, Fox News loads in approximately (plus or minus 1 or thereabouts) six seconds from the time I select it on a "cold" load. If I has a current cache it's a bit faster.

    So let me see if I get this right -- your wife's Nexus is a time machine?

    PS: I have a SGS II and III here, plus a Samsung Tab 2 7.0 along with a bunch of "lesser" Android devices. The objective benchmarks put the performance of the Z10 slightly-below (in aggregate) the SGS II, with the notable penalty being in memory allocation and, to a lesser extent, CPU and I/O. All three are penalized by not being exclusive-lockable by the benchmarking apps on BB10 where they can be (and are) on Android phones. For graphics this is not the case since BB10 does not provide graphics resource to non-focused apps, so they get the whole thing -- and there the numbers are clean.

    For what it's worth prior to the 12xx 10.2.1 leak it was best-described as "chunky." Not any more.
    Synthetic benchmarks are not going to tell you much. Look at real world performance. What apps load faster on your z10 than on your Android devices?

    I loaded Fox News on my Z30 and on the Nexus 4 and the Nexus loads (fully not just the splash screen) around five seconds sooner than the Z30.

    I have yet to find an App in which load times were comparable.



    Posted via CB10
    M_Portiss likes this.
    12-26-13 04:40 PM
  22. tickerguy's Avatar
    Synthetic benchmarks are not going to tell you much. Look at real world performance. What apps load faster on your z10 than on your Android devices?

    I loaded Fox News on my Z30 and on the Nexus 4 and the Nexus loads (fully not just the splash screen) around five seconds sooner than the Z30.

    I have yet to find an App in which load times were comparable.

    Posted via CB10
    What firmware is on your 30?

    My 10 is within a couple of seconds on a cold start against my Galaxy tablet for Fox News -- and the tablet is much faster than the phones I have here in the real world even though it's synthetic numbers for CPU performance are materially worse than the Zed. To put a comparative on it the "metal" benchmark for it comes in around 320 and the Zed 563! On HTML 5 comparison they're very close on synthetics, which to me a big surprise (1192 .vs. 1110, for all intents and purposes the same.)

    Antutu shows much better graphics performance on the Zed than the tablet. It's not even close. And while you can say "that's synthetic" no it's not -- 3d rendering is 3d rendering, and it's why the new versions of the runtime are doing a VERY credible job on games.

    The place where the Android emulator is losing at present is in exactly one place -- I/O. That's it. And it's not losing small there either. It's a factor of five against comparable-class devices for raw I/O and ~40% or so against databases (which are used a LOT in various Android apps.)

    This is the remaining "touch point" for the Android emulator. BlackBerry has been, with each new firmware release, closing this gap. A few back the graphics performance was materially worse as was multitasking and similar. Now it is comparable or wins outright against equivalent CPU-class devices and the GPU performance is outstanding, particularly in its class. Memory I/O performance is pretty good too.

    I expect the next turn will address storage and dbms I/O performance, and when it does you're going to see even more improvement. But -- BlackBerry was exactly right focusing where they did for this turn as they got a lot of bang for their effort. Focusing on the CPU, GPU and Dalvik performance means that the "judder" problem that plagued a number of apps is now gone and the actual in-app performance is comparable or better than similar-class devices on the Android side.

    You do realize that if you hit the "home" button on an Android device that does NOT close the app, right? To get an actual "cold load" comparison you either have to use enough other apps that it gets closed in the background (which Android will eventually do on its own), kill it with a task manager or start from a boot -- preferably the latter. The SGS-II, being far shorter on physical memory, will not keep things running for nearly as long as the 3 (or 4 for that matter.) This is one of the major places that the 3 "feels" faster because when you hit "HOME" it's not actually closing anything, it's just changing the focus, much like tossing something in the dock does so on BB10.

    If something is already running it has (obviously) no load time and is equivalent to selecting a tiled app.

    This, by the way, is one of my ***** points with Android in general. I have a trading app that I like to leave open. I can't on an Android phone and expect it to remain open; if I don't have the focus (I go do something else) it's subject to be closed out from under me, forcing me to put my password in again. That's a pain in the tail. With the Zed I can flick it to a tile and it remains open until I choose to close it. Android provides me no mechanism to do that -- at all. This makes it feel faster in some cases but in others it's a major problem because you can't choose to leave an app open "persistent" as you can on BB10. In real use that particular application is much easier and faster for me to use on the Zed because it's fairly large and every time I hit "Home" on an Android device and go read an email or browse a web page I am very likely to come back and find that was closed by the OS in the background and I have to sign back in -- and that means either trusting the app to store my password (and that something won't steal it) or keying it back in (a serious pain in the tush.) With the Z10 I can literally leave that same app open all day or evening with the phone in my pocket, doing dozens of other things with it, and when I call it from the tile it's instantly there. I have in fact left that trading app open across multiple days' time and doing so saves me a ton of time and hassle -- that's impossible with an Android device and is one of the reasons having used it now for about nine months I wouldn't even consider giving up the Zed and going back to the Android architecture.

    My choice instead of the phone's choice.

    Comparing an actual program startup against bringing an app to the front that's already running is a comparison of apples and pineapples while claiming they're both "apples." If I count the "startup" time bringing the tiled app forward it, of course, counts as "zero" since it's already running.
    Last edited by tickerguy; 12-26-13 at 05:30 PM.
    ital1, Omnitech and mnc76 like this.
    12-26-13 05:11 PM
  23. meltbox360's Avatar
    You know the database performance sacking makes sense. Android apps don't seem to lag anymore on my Z10. Instead they seem to hesitate between different pages or upon starting some action. Hrmmm they could be closer to having something very nice than I thought.

    Posted via CB10
    12-26-13 05:57 PM
  24. lawguyman's Avatar
    What firmware is on your 30?

    My 10 is within a couple of seconds on a cold start against my Galaxy tablet for Fox News -- and the tablet is much faster than the phones I have here in the real world even though it's synthetic numbers for CPU performance are materially worse than the Zed. To put a comparative on it the "metal" benchmark for it comes in around 320 and the Zed 563! On HTML 5 comparison they're very close on synthetics, which to me a big surprise (1192 .vs. 1110, for all intents and purposes the same.)

    Antutu shows much better graphics performance on the Zed than the tablet. It's not even close. And while you can say "that's synthetic" no it's not -- 3d rendering is 3d rendering, and it's why the new versions of the runtime are doing a VERY credible job on games.

    The place where the Android emulator is losing at present is in exactly one place -- I/O. That's it. And it's not losing small there either. It's a factor of five against comparable-class devices for raw I/O and ~40% or so against databases (which are used a LOT in various Android apps.)

    This is the remaining "touch point" for the Android emulator. BlackBerry has been, with each new firmware release, closing this gap. A few back the graphics performance was materially worse as was multitasking and similar. Now it is comparable or wins outright against equivalent CPU-class devices and the GPU performance is outstanding, particularly in its class. Memory I/O performance is pretty good too.

    I expect the next turn will address storage and dbms I/O performance, and when it does you're going to see even more improvement. But -- BlackBerry was exactly right focusing where they did for this turn as they got a lot of bang for their effort. Focusing on the CPU, GPU and Dalvik performance means that the "judder" problem that plagued a number of apps is now gone and the actual in-app performance is comparable or better than similar-class devices on the Android side.

    You do realize that if you hit the "home" button on an Android device that does NOT close the app, right? To get an actual "cold load" comparison you either have to use enough other apps that it gets closed in the background (which Android will eventually do on its own), kill it with a task manager or start from a boot -- preferably the latter. The SGS-II, being far shorter on physical memory, will not keep things running for nearly as long as the 3 (or 4 for that matter.) This is one of the major places that the 3 "feels" faster because when you hit "HOME" it's not actually closing anything, it's just changing the focus, much like tossing something in the dock does so on BB10.

    If something is already running it has (obviously) no load time and is equivalent to selecting a tiled app.

    This, by the way, is one of my ***** points with Android in general. I have a trading app that I like to leave open. I can't on an Android phone and expect it to remain open; if I don't have the focus (I go do something else) it's subject to be closed out from under me, forcing me to put my password in again. That's a pain in the tail. With the Zed I can flick it to a tile and it remains open until I choose to close it. Android provides me no mechanism to do that -- at all. This makes it feel faster in some cases but in others it's a major problem because you can't choose to leave an app open "persistent" as you can on BB10. In real use that particular application is much easier and faster for me to use on the Zed because it's fairly large and every time I hit "Home" on an Android device and go read an email or browse a web page I am very likely to come back and find that was closed by the OS in the background and I have to sign back in -- and that means either trusting the app to store my password (and that something won't steal it) or keying it back in (a serious pain in the tush.) With the Z10 I can literally leave that same app open all day or evening with the phone in my pocket, doing dozens of other things with it, and when I call it from the tile it's instantly there. I have in fact left that trading app open across multiple days' time and doing so saves me a ton of time and hassle -- that's impossible with an Android device and is one of the reasons having used it now for about nine months I wouldn't even consider giving up the Zed and going back to the Android architecture.

    My choice instead of the phone's choice.

    Comparing an actual program startup against bringing an app to the front that's already running is a comparison of apples and pineapples while claiming they're both "apples." If I count the "startup" time bringing the tiled app forward it, of course, counts as "zero" since it's already running.
    Of course I am comparing the Z30 to the Nexus 4 with cold starts. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

    You seem to agree with me that native Android loads everything faster than your Z10 (or my Z30). This is real world usability stuff and not a synthetic benchmark. Most people don't ever run benchmarks so they don't care which device scores higher or lower.

    Another example in which BB10 comes up short in an important App is Google Earth. On BB10, Google Earth does not show 3D animations. From what I have read, 3D animations are not available on single core devices. I wonder if the Android runtime sees the second core. If so, why no 3D? FWIW, the 1295 runtime is better than earlier ones on Google Earth. On earlier versions, multi touch screen input did not work so you could not rotate the maps.

    One thing I want to make clear is that I think the Android runtime is a really good job on BlackBerry's part. It is just not at all fair to say that it is "better than native." Load times are one important area in which BB10 is dramatically "worse than native" when it comes to Android apps.
    12-26-13 06:26 PM
  25. tickerguy's Avatar
    Of course I am comparing the Z30 to the Nexus 4 with cold starts. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

    You seem to agree with me that native Android loads everything faster than your Z10 (or my Z30). This is real world usability stuff and not a synthetic benchmark. Most people don't ever run benchmarks so they don't care which device scores higher or lower.
    No I'm not. My tablet is MUCH faster than my SGS-2. The Zed beats the SGS-2 in the real world. It loses to the 3.

    The thing is I know why the tablet wins on load times; it's all I/O performance. 5:1 advantages on disk I/O can't be overcome with processor on load times, but 2:1 advantage on graphics performance make for a smoother and better experience once the app loads, and that's exactly what I see in the real world.

    And again, what firmware is on that 30? It's important. The improvements between previous releases and 1259 were huge. 1925 is even faster. Both went directly to user experience.
    Another example in which BB10 comes up short in an important App is Google Earth. On BB10, Google Earth does not show 3D animations. From what I have read, 3D animations are not available on single core devices. I wonder if the Android runtime sees the second core. If so, why no 3D? FWIW, the 1295 runtime is better than earlier ones on Google Earth. On earlier versions, multi touch screen input did not work so you could not rotate the maps.
    I don't know of any of those off the top of my head, so I can't look at 1925. Earth does run quite well though. I don't use it often however. I do use Skymap pretty regularly and the Z10 is more-stable on its presentation (lack of "jitter") than a number of other Android devices, which surprised me quite a bit.
    One thing I want to make clear is that I think the Android runtime is a really good job on BlackBerry's part. It is just not at all fair to say that it is "better than native." Load times are one important area in which BB10 is dramatically "worse than native" when it comes to Android apps.
    It sure is in terms of actual operational performance and for cold-loads it's faster than some and slower than others. It'll never beat a still-running app on Android that has the focus restored against an actual load but it has no penalty in performance for a "framed" Android app .vs. a focus restore -- then again the differences there are measured in milliseconds and not user-perceptible.

    When BlackBerry gets the IO performance up to where native devices are -- or even close to them -- then that last "touch point" will likely disappear entirely -- just like the previous performance issues (computational, 2d display and 3d display) have likewise disappeared and now provide what is easily comparable and in many cases is superior on a user-experience basis to a native Android device.
    mnc76 likes this.
    12-26-13 06:51 PM
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