09-28-14 11:44 PM
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tools
  1. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    How exactly is including code from the AOSP in BB10 a "brute force hack"? Please explain, and please be precise.

    Also, please explain how Google will "break" this so-called "hack" without also breaking the millions of other Android handsets (including millions of handsets from OHA members) that also use code from the AOSP. Again, be precise.

    Posted via CB10
    Read the comments in the article from The Register (I can paste the pertinent points to save you time).

    As for breaking things, read the article from Wired (links in other posts).
    12-15-13 07:50 PM
  2. mnc76's Avatar
    What Google did with Java is a little bit different. Google essentially took Java APIs and changed them slightly through "reverse engineering."
    Just an example:

    java.lang.String in Android
    http://developer.android.com/referen...ng/String.html

    java.lang.String in Java SE 7
    http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs...ng/String.html

    I didn't notice any differences.

    It will be interesting to see how the case ends.

    Posted via CB10
    12-15-13 07:53 PM
  3. BCITMike's Avatar
    Considering the Android runtime (not the full Android OS) is only available in BB10 cos it's a brute force hack and BlackBerry are not members of the OHA, then Google Play wont be coming to BlackBerry.

    EVER.

    Oh, just for the record, Google will break BlackBerry's little hack in an upcoming version of KitKat.
    Proof? You don't know what is in development. Or do you?

    Posted via CB10
    12-15-13 07:54 PM
  4. mnc76's Avatar
    Read the comments in the article from The Register (I can paste the pertinent points to save you time).

    As for breaking things, read the article from Wired (links in other posts).
    The Register article explained how BB10 implements native code function calls. It simply uses function call signatures to map Android app function calls to the equivalent QNX functions. There is no way Google can break this without breaking other Android handsets (including OHA vendors's handsets). You weren't precise. Also, this "hack" is a common technique (see the Wine windows emulator" for example).

    I read the article from Wired. It shows that Google can make it difficult for BlackBerry to keep up with closed source Android, however, it never suggests that Google could break anything in the current BB10 Android implementation.

    Also, without any knowledge of how BB10 will implement MapView v2, saying that Google could "break" this is pure speculation.

    Posted via CB10
    ray689, pili4, Superfly_FR and 2 others like this.
    12-15-13 08:07 PM
  5. lawguyman's Avatar
    Considering the Android runtime (not the full Android OS) is only available in BB10 cos it's a brute force hack and BlackBerry are not members of the OHA, then Google Play wont be coming to BlackBerry.

    EVER.

    Oh, just for the record, Google will break BlackBerry's little hack in an upcoming version of KitKat.
    Do you understand Google's business model? Google gives Android away for free but it does not care about Android. Android is just a tool to get Google's apps on as many phones as possible. Why? Because Google makes money off its app ecosystem. The only time that Google was heavy handed about an Android fork was when Acer was going to sell a phone with a forked Android that did not run Google's suite of services. OHA members can't do that.

    If bb went to Google and said they want to be compatible with the whole suite of Google Apps, All of which generate cash for Google, why would Google not like that deal? Google would probably even help out. It is like a drug dealer who gives out free samples, they will get you for life.

    Google could care less about BB10 or QNX or even App World as along as every bb comes installed with Gmail, Google Maps, etc.
    12-15-13 08:27 PM
  6. BCITMike's Avatar
    My take away is that Google apps are closed, Android isn't. BlackBerry has app equivalent for most Google apps. If developers could take their Android app and compile for BB10 by replacing Google api WITHOUT DEVELOPMENT HASSLE, they don't have same problem as Samsung and amazon.

    Posted via CB10
    12-15-13 08:32 PM
  7. lawguyman's Avatar
    Just an example:

    java.lang.String in Android
    String | Android Developers

    java.lang.String in Java SE 7
    String (Java Platform SE 7 )

    I didn't notice any differences.

    It will be interesting to see how the case ends.

    Posted via CB10
    I'm pretty sure that the case is over or at least mostly over and Google essentially prevailed.

    Oracle pointed to instances where code was taken verbatim and things like you point out. I believe the case really turned on the issue of whether Java was open and whether Google needed a license.
    12-15-13 08:33 PM
  8. Omnitech's Avatar
    Do you understand Google's business model? Google gives Android away for free but it does not care about Android. Android is just a tool to get Google's apps on as many phones as possible. Why? Because Google makes money off its app ecosystem. The only time that Google was heavy handed about an Android fork was when Acer was going to sell a phone with a forked Android that did not run Google's suite of services. OHA members can't do that.

    Sort-of. Nowadays they are apparently trying to lock down Android by removing various OSS parts, letting them die on the vine, and pushing closed-source versions instead:

    Google's iron grip on Android: controlling open source by any means necessary (Wired UK)
    12-15-13 08:34 PM
  9. lawguyman's Avatar
    My take away is that Google apps are closed, Android isn't. BlackBerry has app equivalent for most Google apps. If developers could take their Android app and compile for BB10 by replacing Google api WITHOUT DEVELOPMENT HASSLE, they don't have same problem as Samsung and amazon.

    Posted via CB10
    I think BB is done trying to get developers to recompile. BB just wants to be compatible.
    12-15-13 08:35 PM
  10. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    The Register article explained how BB10 implements native code function calls. It simply uses function call signatures to map Android app function calls to the equivalent QNX functions. There is no way Google can break this without breaking other Android handsets (including OHA vendors's handsets). You weren't precise. Also, this "hack" is a common technique (see the Wine windows emulator" for example).

    I read the article from Wired. It shows that Google can make it difficult for BlackBerry to keep up with closed source Android, however, it never suggests that Google could break anything in the current BB10 Android implementation.

    Also, without any knowledge of how BB10 will implement MapView v2, saying that Google could "break" this is pure speculation.

    Posted via CB10
    I know what the The Register article says (and I've read the corrections in the comments).

    I was precise, I precisely directed you to 2 urls.

    Pertinent comments from The Register article:
    "It's a brute force hack and not clever. BSD has been doing this for years. Linux/MIPS was also able to do this with some SGI IRIX binaries, although it could only emulate a subset of IRIX 5.x syscalls."
    "A clever solution would have isolated all app components in their own pseudo VM and shimmed emulation under it, allowing some amount of security to be enforced."
    "The problem with hacks like this is that they are built on platform idiosyncrasies and have no resilience to future change. So at best they have a maintenance headache and at worst the house of cards comes tumbling down. Why invest in the BB ecosystem on the hope it'll run android apps for the foreseeable future."

    (the last comment is one I wholeheartedly agree with).
    12-15-13 08:36 PM
  11. BCITMike's Avatar
    My take away is that Google apps are closed, Android isn't. BlackBerry has app equivalent for most Google apps. If developers could take their Android app and compile for BB10 by replacing Google api WITHOUT DEVELOPMENT HASSLE, they don't have same problem as Samsung and amazon.

    Posted via CB10
    12-15-13 08:40 PM
  12. mnc76's Avatar
    QNX and Android are not both Unix based!!

    Android is an operating system []based on the Linux kernel[/b], and designed primarily for touchscreen mobile devices.
    QNX is a commercial Unix-like real-time operating system, aimed primarily at the embedded systems market.

    GNU/Linux is not officially certified as POSIX compatible but does comply in part.
    The bottom line is that the creators of both OS's based much of their OS development design choices on the known structure and behaviour of Unix OS's. Both these OS's share enormous similarity with Unix at the API level and -- transitively -- with each other.

    Android is based on (in the sense of direct use of code) the Linux kernel. I mentioned (in the very post you responded to) that Android is not fully POSIX compliant.

    Posted via CB10
    12-15-13 08:40 PM
  13. lawguyman's Avatar
    Sort-of. Nowadays they are apparently trying to lock down Android by removing various OSS parts, letting them die on the vine, and pushing closed-source versions instead:

    Google's iron grip on Android: controlling open source by any means necessary (Wired UK)
    This is the drug dealers business model. OHA members took free Android and free and popular Google services. Now, many would probably like to do what Amazon did and fork Android but now they have to replace all the Google services and Google development tools will break apps when not on 'real' Android. Instead, it is easier to just keep using what Google provides. Look at Apple and what happened with Maps and in that case Apple has all the money in the world. Getting off the Google bandwagon is hard.
    12-15-13 08:41 PM
  14. BCITMike's Avatar
    I know what the The Register article says (and I've read the corrections in the comments).

    I was precise, I precisely directed you to 2 urls.
    Comments are not loading, please paste. Thanks

    Posted via CB10
    12-15-13 08:43 PM
  15. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    Comments are not loading, please paste. Thanks

    Posted via CB10
    Scroll back to my post you quoted, I've pasted the three salient points.
    12-15-13 08:46 PM
  16. mnc76's Avatar
    [QUOTE=CJH_;9712684]I know what the The Register article says (and I've read the corrections in the comments).

    I was precise, I precisely directed you to 2 urls.

    Pertinent comments from The Register article:
    "It's a brute force hack and not clever. BSD has been doing this for years. Linux/MIPS was also able to do this with some SGI IRIX binaries, although it could only emulate a subset of IRIX 5.x syscalls."
    "A clever solution would have isolated all app components in their own pseudo VM and shimmed emulation under it, allowing some amount of security to be enforced."
    "The problem with hacks like this is that they are built on platform idiosyncrasies and have no resilience to future change. So at best they have a maintenance headache and at worst the house of cards comes tumbling down. Why invest in the BB ecosystem on the hope it'll run android apps for the foreseeable future."

    (the last comment is one I wholeheartedly agree with).
    This guy appears to be talking more in general terms about the nature, philosophy, and pitfalls of hacks and maintainability in general. He is not appear to be talking about THIS specific hack. It is true that BlackBerry will have to update/maintain this system as new native functions are added, but this is expected. It is not ideal, but it is not something that will "topple like a house of cards" lol

    The resilience to future change comes from the fact that anything that breaks this system would also break OHA member devices.

    There is nothing magical about the method BB10 uses to map to native functions. Native function calls always invoke SWIs at which point BB10 can examine the function and map it to the correct native function entry point.
    FairlightRacing likes this.
    12-15-13 09:05 PM
  17. mnc76's Avatar
    Double post
    12-15-13 09:09 PM
  18. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    [QUOTE=mnc76;9712857]
    I know what the The Register article says (and I've read the corrections in the comments).

    I was precise, I precisely directed you to 2 urls.

    Pertinent comments from The Register article:


    This guy appears to be talking more in general terms about the nature, philosophy, and pitfalls of hacks and maintainability in general. He is not appear to be talking about THIS specific hack. It is true that BlackBerry will have to update/maintain this system as new native functions are added, but this is expected. It is not ideal, but it is not something that will "topple like a house of cards" lol

    The resilience to future change comes from the fact that anything that breaks this system would also break OHA member devices.

    There is nothing magical about the method BB10 uses to map to native functions. Native function calls always invoke SWIs at which point BB10 can examine the function and map it to the correct native function entry point.
    He's not talking about this hack except where he specifically says "it's a brute force hack". Silly me, I must be reading different comments.

    (Btw, all the comments are related to the article.)
    12-15-13 10:47 PM
  19. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Can't find an answer to this: is/was B&N a member of OHA?

    If not, and it was able to strike a deal with Google, that seems to indicate that Google can make deals outside OHA.
    12-16-13 12:17 AM
  20. mnc76's Avatar
    [QUOTE=CJH_;9713414]

    He's not talking about this hack except where he specifically says "it's a brute force hack". Silly me, I must be reading different comments.

    (Btw, all the comments are related to the article.)
    Explain to me how this method can "topple like a house of cards"? Just saying it can (or quoting someone on the Internet allegedly saying it can with no technical justification) is proof of nothing. How could Google alter Android so that BB10 could no longer intercept native function calls, yet still somehow preserve backwards compatibility with the current catalogue of Android apps?

    I imagine they inspect the stack for the function return address when handling an SWI (or possibly a register (depending on how function return addresses are stored)) to determine if the call originated from an address in a native Linux binary "blob", and if so, read from the registers Linux uses to determine the function it wishes to execute (versus reading the standard registers QNX uses to indicate the function it wishes to execute).

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by mnc76; 12-16-13 at 03:35 AM.
    FairlightRacing likes this.
    12-16-13 12:21 AM
  21. m1kr0's Avatar
    Considering the Android runtime (not the full Android OS) is only available in BB10 cos it's a brute force hack and BlackBerry are not members of the OHA, then Google Play wont be coming to BlackBerry.

    EVER.

    Oh, just for the record, Google will break BlackBerry's little hack in an upcoming version of KitKat.
    but but but I thought it was the open source Dalvik that's running and changing Kit Kat won't have any influence unless Google changes runtime to ART, shooting half a billion users in the foot......

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    justsomebbuser likes this.
    12-16-13 12:53 AM
  22. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Sounds to me that BlackBerry don't want Google finding out they're going to use another hack to get MapView v2 and Google Play Services in BB10.
    That isn't going to happen. For BlackBerry to "hack" BB10's way into Google's services without approval is pretty much akin to the way Palm hacked the Pre into iTunes. It wasn't legit, and Apple put a stop to it quickly.

    If BB10 gets MapView and GPlay Services it's because they have Google's support to do so.
    Omnitech likes this.
    12-16-13 02:09 AM
  23. inCQR's Avatar
    I wish. He's actually assigned to hunt leakers

    Posted via CB10
    Where? In your dreams?

    Posted via CB10
    12-16-13 02:18 AM
  24. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Oh, just for the record, Google will break BlackBerry's little hack in an upcoming version of KitKat.
    Not sure what you mean exactly by that. But AFAIK, nor Dalvik than ART are under Google's IP, are they ?
    Not sure for ART, but Dalvik is Apache 2.0 ...
    So, basically, when kitkat is up & ready, it'll be the same process we saw to integrate JB in BB10 ... no ?
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 12-16-13 at 02:59 AM. Reason: Dalvik typo
    12-16-13 02:49 AM
  25. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    Not sure what you mean exactly by that. But AFAIK, nor Dalvik than ART are under Google's IP, are they ?
    Not sure for ART, but Dalvik is Apache 2.0 ...
    So, basically, when kitkat is up & ready, it'll be the same process we saw to integrate JB in BB10 ... no ?
    No...
    Read this first (post 31):
    http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...ml#post8391986

    Then read the article I took this quote from:
    "Google's developers have been working for over 2 years on ART, a replacement for Dalvik"

    http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/11...uts-in-kitkat/

    Google are making architectural changes to Android.
    12-16-13 04:08 AM
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