09-23-13 09:58 PM
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  1. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    Leaks are a "bad" thing in the same way that Snowden's Top Secret files leak is a bad thing: a developer signed a non-disclosure agreement and violated it. Whether the intent was altruistic or not, the fact is that a legal agreement for confidentiality was broken, and potentially, information related to features or other things of competitive advantage to BlackBerry could have been lost or exposed. If this were Apple, that developer would have been found and there would have been some pretty severe consequences for that person..

    That said... Leaks are also a "good" thing in that they allow BlackBerry to do a couple of things: get some additional unofficial testing and feedback, and to, again, unofficially, circumvent "carrier testing" requirements and get bug fixes out into the hands of users.. BlackBerry has always had, in my perception, a problem with incomplete or insufficient testing: they'd release a new OS, and features that were working in the previous release are now broken.. And we're not talking obscure functions that nobody uses, but often core product features.. Obviously, their internal testing and regression procedures were not sufficient to catch these problems, and their set of "beta test" developers were obviously focused on the new APIs or functions that they were interested in for their application and did not bother to re-test core functionality.. By turning a "blind eye" more or less to leaks, it allows them (assuming that they pay at least some attention to the various public forums where leaks are discussed), to get some additional, unofficial testing and feedback and to address such problems, if not in the next "official release" (which are probably older than the leaks and already in the hands of carriers), then in an upcoming release.. They have gotten better in the last couple of years, but there are still too many bugs IMO.. Secondly, and I have it direct from the lips of a VP within BlackBerry, and I won't mention his or her name or which part of the organization they work for, but a very senior executive level person, so they were espousing an "unofficial, semi-official" corporate position with regards to leaks: that they tolerate the leaks (they eventually get files removed from hosting services, but they take their time), at least partly to get around the long "carrier testing" periods and get some critical bug fixes out to at least part of the user population. They have been working on processes to try to reduce the carrier testing required and are looking at ways to decouple security and bug fixes from things that may affect the carrier network, and I do see some improvement, but the carrier approval process is not global (so some customers are stuck with ancient OSes with all manner of bugs) and is creating a huge amount of frustration within the user community, so I applaud BB for not clamping down on a channel that in all fairness they have a right (and indeed, perhaps a corporate duty) to clamp down on..

    So, I say, let the leaks continue!
    Well said.

    Posted from the tap-dancing mouse
    06-25-13 08:51 AM
  2. Mecca EL's Avatar
    I, once again, am compelled to default to what is a known factor, when it comes to ANY OS - official, leak, or hybrid - USER ERROR.

    At the core of this community, we have technology. From this root we have a branch of tech-Knowers, and a branch of tech-Users. When an OS is released, in whatever state of development, the tech-Knowers are excited to push, pull, prod, and poke around, never satisfied with leaving well enough alone. As a consumer, a tech-Knower will have their individual device serve them coffee. Errors are memorize, and replaced with working parts reminiscent of Frankenstein. A tech-Knower, tinkering with their companies device, in a BES environment... is bad for business! hahahaha

    A tech-User... these branch off into their respective subgroup: the "entitled" and the "I'm not f^?<ing with that unless it says OFFICIAL!!". The entitled user is not interested in feedback, testing, bricking, or knowing...they just deserve a new OS, or else!!! Forums are muddled with rants, instead of constructive information that other tech-Users would love to read, to alleviate the fear of installing a leak. Things like "no love for stl100-1" stick out in my head. Keep in mind, there are many new comers to BlackBerry - as hard as that may be to accept - and because of over expectations, and useless habits formed from other platforms and forums, they don't actually understand the OS, and it's level of flexibility. Knowing this platform, reading the threads carefully, understanding how device tools work, would turn things around.

    Are carriers full of it, yes! If they pull a much awaited update, dispute your contract with their CS dept, and move on. It's your right to do that, if you're not satisfied with the services.

    Is BlackBerry full of it, yes!!! If you don't like how they do things, it's your right to move on.

    There is no perfect software. Whatever tag you stick on it, it is and will always remain a W.I.P. - work in progress. Updates, upgrades, up-whatever proves this as fact.

    But the bottom line is.... You, the user. You decided to install or not to install...THAT should be the question - in my Shakespearean voice.




    Posted via CB10
    06-25-13 08:53 AM
  3. Wigley458's Avatar
    I, once again, am compelled to default to what is a known factor, when it comes to ANY OS - official, leak, or hybrid - USER ERROR.

    At the core of this community, we have technology. From this root we have a branch of tech-Knowers, and a branch of tech-Users. When an OS is released, in whatever state of development, the tech-Knowers are excited to push, pull, prod, and poke around, never satisfied with leaving well enough alone. As a consumer, a tech-Knower will have their individual device serve them coffee. Errors are memorize, and replaced with working parts reminiscent of Frankenstein. A tech-Knower, tinkering with their companies device, in a BES environment... is bad for business! hahahaha

    A tech-User... these branch off into their respective subgroup: the "entitled" and the "I'm not f^?<ing with that unless it says OFFICIAL!!". The entitled user is not interested in feedback, testing, bricking, or knowing...they just deserve a new OS, or else!!! Forums are muddled with rants, instead of constructive information that other tech-Users would love to read, to alleviate the fear of installing a leak. Things like "no love for stl100-1" stick out in my head. Keep in mind, there are many new comers to BlackBerry - as hard as that may be to accept - and because of over expectations, and useless habits formed from other platforms and forums, they don't actually understand the OS, and it's level of flexibility. Knowing this platform, reading the threads carefully, understanding how device tools work, would turn things around.

    Are carriers full of it, yes! If they pull a much awaited update, dispute your contract with their CS dept, and move on. It's your right to do that, if you're not satisfied with the services.

    Is BlackBerry full of it, yes!!! If you don't like how they do things, it's your right to move on.

    There is no perfect software. Whatever tag you stick on it, it is and will always remain a W.I.P. - work in progress. Updates, upgrades, up-whatever proves this as fact.

    But the bottom line is.... You, the user. You decided to install or not to install...THAT should be the question - in my Shakespearean voice.




    Posted via CB10
    Lol. Nice one

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.0.93 & Posted from my awesome Z10 via cb10. My Channel pin http://channelpin.com/C000B3B57
    Mecca EL likes this.
    06-25-13 10:01 AM
  4. ZDiez's Avatar
    I'm in Colombia, no update from the carrier Claro. I' ve had my Z10 for over two months. Yesterday I downloaded successfully the 10.1 update. Really appreciated the help Crackberry..and within minutes I had the long awaited Skype. Yes leaked OS updates are valuable. What do the carriers care for them the OS upgrades are a pain!!!!

    Posted via CB10
    Mecca EL likes this.
    06-25-13 10:10 AM
  5. letmein13's Avatar
    Leaks are good because it gives us an opportunity to try something new and report back the problems. Therefore, we improve BB OS overall .However,it's bad when we don't get a new leak every 2 weeks and It's worse when our download link is deleted so quick that I didn't have time to download it.
    Mecca EL likes this.
    06-25-13 10:15 AM
  6. travaz's Avatar
    I like leaks because it allows me to go around a non responsive carrier. AKA Verizon. I also think there are 2 "different " kinds of leaks. The leak that has never been released by a carrier and the "leak" that hasn't been released by "Your " carrier. I have used leaks from back in my Tour days. Used them on my 9930 and now my Z10. The leaks that I loaded were all version that had been released on other carriers. I think the chances of something going real wrong with the software are low. I also wait and see how the community here fares with the leak.
    That being said I would not load 10.2 on my device yet as it really is unreleased software. Yes I was always aware of the possibillity of breaking my device. I also took the time to learn how to revert to the original OS version. I think in my case it has allowed me to enjoy my BlackBerry's in spite of Verizon. I am running .2354 and it works great.
    06-25-13 10:16 AM
  7. Wigley458's Avatar
    I like leaks because it allows me to go around a non responsive carrier. AKA Verizon. I also think there are 2 "different " kinds of leaks. The leak that has never been released by a carrier and the "leak" that hasn't been released by "Your " carrier. I have used leaks from back in my Tour days. Used them on my 9930 and now my Z10. The leaks that I loaded were all version that had been released on other carriers. I think the chances of something going real wrong with the software are low. I also wait and see how the community here fares with the leak.
    That being said I would not load 10.2 on my device yet as it really is unreleased software. Yes I was always aware of the possibillity of breaking my device. I also took the time to learn how to revert to the original OS version. I think in my case it has allowed me to enjoy my BlackBerry's in spite of Verizon. I am running .2354 and it works great.
    Good point. I'm going to edit my op cause of this. Thanks

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.0.93 & Posted from my awesome Z10 via cb10. My Channel pin http://channelpin.com/C000B3B57
    bbfan1040 likes this.
    06-25-13 10:23 AM
  8. Norg's Avatar
    I think leaks are good but then again too fragmented. I truly think blackberry should really just offer the leaks through the beta zone so there can be a closer correlation of what is being fixed and what needs to be fixed. An the customer can truly get and understanding that what they are installing is not complete software. Maybe, just maybe people will stop being and arses and give real feedback and blackberry can use that carrier specific and device specifics to no what works and what doesn't.
    I agree with lots of what you're saying Adolfo, the three things that I would add...1) for BlackBerry to take on some form of steering or guiding role rather than give the impression that these leaks simply fall out of thin air. How can you control the impact on a brand's reputation if you just keep throwing out bones every once in a while.

    2) Also, I truly believe that all testers, present company included should have agreed to some basic terms/agreement. By doing so, an opportunity to ask/rate people's knowledge level (4 categories) before throwing them into the fire would have been obtained. Thus making it far easier for all members to assist one another and so on... Levels could have resembled: Moderator level, Advanced user, Typical user, Newbie. Right now it's all over the map !!

    3) Lastly, I truly wish that there was a procedure for fast tracking validated requests such as: "bugs", "missing features" and "nice to haves" directly to BlackBerry support. That way a simple database could have been created and in turn tracked/viewed by all members.

    I know I know it's always easy to complain and make things better after the fact, but with that said, I'm so happy to have the opportunity to have my new BlackBerry 10 device and especially to have a chance to contribute to its success. Only wish I could get some form of validation that someone at BlackBerry HQ is actually listening and to feel that reported items will either be replaced, corrected, modified or dropped.

    Is that too much to ask from a long time BlackBerry customer.
    Adolfo Redillo likes this.
    06-25-13 10:38 AM
  9. eninrebmun's Avatar
    blackberry 10.2 king cobra super duper hybrid v10.1.1.10.1.001.22223399947 alpha-beta-stl-10-000
    i need a link to this one! Will it run on 100-1???
    Mecca EL and Blacklatino like this.
    06-25-13 10:44 AM
  10. eninrebmun's Avatar
    ... it has allowed me to enjoy my BlackBerry's in spite of Verizon.
    For personal needs, this really sums it up for me. It was that way for a while on the old BBOS (after new major versions came up especially), but later it just became fun to hybridize/test etc. One day I'll mess with leaks/hybrids for giggles on the Z10. but at this point, I am relying on leaks just to get the function I require.

    Whether or not it is good for BlackBerry? I think good for them as well. I think anything they want to keep truly secret is probably pretty well locked down, and a lot of these releases are flying all over the place, and they don't seem to care much. Part of me things they are purposely supplying them. We know they want to control the software, like Apple. This is a back-door way of doing that to whose who have the interest or aptitude for such things. And with the discovery that STL100-2/3/4 can all use the same OSs and to some extent (with varying successes) radios, it is clear they aren't interested in locking people out. This is all speculation, just as I have speculated elsewhere on this subject.

    They could easily make life more difficult for us if they wanted to keep us from messing about.

    So my answer is good and good. ;-)
    Mecca EL likes this.
    06-25-13 12:42 PM
  11. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    I agree with lots of what you're saying Adolfo, the three things that I would add...1) for BlackBerry to take on some form of steering or guiding role rather than give the impression that these leaks simply fall out of thin air. How can you control the impact on a brand's reputation if you just keep throwing out bones every once in a while.

    2) Also, I truly believe that all testers, present company included should have agreed to some basic terms/agreement. By doing so, an opportunity to ask/rate people's knowledge level (4 categories) before throwing them into the fire would have been obtained. Thus making it far easier for all members to assist one another and so on... Levels could have resembled: Moderator level, Advanced user, Typical user, Newbie. Right now it's all over the map !!

    3) Lastly, I truly wish that there was a procedure for fast tracking validated requests such as: "bugs", "missing features" and "nice to haves" directly to BlackBerry support. That way a simple database could have been created and in turn tracked/viewed by all members.

    I know I know it's always easy to complain and make things better after the fact, but with that said, I'm so happy to have the opportunity to have my new BlackBerry 10 device and especially to have a chance to contribute to its success. Only wish I could get some form of validation that someone at BlackBerry HQ is actually listening and to feel that reported items will either be replaced, corrected, modified or dropped.

    Is that too much to ask from a long time BlackBerry customer.
    Great points, well made. Thank you for posting.

    Posted via The Force.
    06-25-13 12:48 PM
  12. bbquincar's Avatar
    As i said before once it doesn't hurt BlackBerry as a whole ill take them and run. But ppl need to understand that a leak is a beta and may or may not be stable.Developers have no responsibility to make their apps 10.2, 10.3 ect ready when its not even release yet to the general public.
    06-25-13 01:54 PM
  13. m4salman's Avatar
    Good: You know what you are doing and blame only yourself if things go wrong.

    Bad: You have no clue what you are doing, and cannot take the blame, and decide to blame BlackBerry for your poor decisions.


    Enough said.
    Mecca EL and eninrebmun like this.
    06-25-13 02:17 PM
  14. gjcavana's Avatar
    My two cents. The software or leaks in question are not software packages that a developer somewhere is losing revenue over when we install them. We are talking about an operating system for a device that we have paid for. No one loses money, it's not like pirating software in the sense that revenue is lost by an innocent hard working developer. In this case we are looking for an operating system that will fix the bugs for a device we have paid for. Software that comes from the same company that manufactured our already paid for device. Software that they do not charge for when released. I found a leak that fixed the issues that I have had since I first turned on my device and I am now happy. Shouldn't the carrier and manufacturer also be happy that their customer is now happy instead of going to the competition? If/when Verizon ever releases a 10.1 version that works as good as the 2062 leak that I installed i will switch to it, but there is no reason I should have to continue to use a device that verizon doesn't fix. I like my BB and I want to keep it, without the leak I was getting tired of the reboots and other bugs.
    eninrebmun likes this.
    06-25-13 02:30 PM
  15. aha's Avatar
    They are bad because they don't come frequent enough
    06-25-13 07:51 PM
  16. cdnrower's Avatar
    I'm a fan of the Leaks 100% so that means GOOD. I've learned so much from the OS Leak process and community and love and trust my z10 more due to it. I'm tired of waiting for the Carrier to release something and even being in Canada that's frustrating. I can't imagine how painful it is to our folks south of the border. Holy crap on a cracker. I miss the direct push from BBRY like on the Playbook though for sure. So, keep these leaks coming and I'll continue to learn and use at my own risk. Like someone else already said, I get excited when a leak is posted. It's like an addiction.... Thanks again for teaching me about autoloaders, sachibar, sachup and the other great tools that have been shared. It's built my confidence and my understanding of the product I own...no different than what I expect owning a laptop. THANKS!
    06-25-13 08:19 PM
  17. Skeevecr's Avatar
    Most leaks are bad for both the customer and especially the company, any build not intended for external release has a high chance that there are at least a few regressions or showstopper bugs that would not be present in a release candidate.

    The only exception to leaks being bad would be the OSes that have been released to other carriers and are merely being held up by slow carriers like those in the states.
    06-26-13 03:08 AM
  18. anonymous394857398457's Avatar
    Leaks are fine though I better wait for an official release. Leaks can be unstable and buggy. My two cents.

    Posted using Z10 via CB10
    06-26-13 03:40 AM
  19. letmein13's Avatar
    All options should be on the table for us. Last month is better than this month because we received many new leaks. Like a kid looking for a candy, I was looking forward to every Friday in May because I knew a new leak was out. Every Friday in June is like the rest of days. Nothing is special. Leaks are slowly coming out and it makes our waiting more excruciating.
    06-26-13 06:20 AM
  20. dkreeg's Avatar
    If you view an OS as an evolutionary cycle, not only are leaks good, they are essential. Only in the wild and in the hands of end users, will the OS learn to adapt and ultimately survive.

    Posted via CB10
    Mecca EL likes this.
    06-26-13 06:57 AM
  21. letmein13's Avatar
    Leaks are fine though I better wait for an official release. Leaks can be unstable and buggy. My two cents.

    Posted using Z10 via CB10
    I don't disagree with what you said. I have formatted my computers hundred times for the last 16 years. I didn't format and re-install an OS in a smart phone until I purchased z10. I was scared when I first did it on my brand new z10 last month. After doing it 2 times, I have good confident and find the process very easy. There is always a risk when you do it. When I accept a risk for everybody's betterment, I'll do it without hesitation.
    06-26-13 07:27 AM
  22. f_d's Avatar
    I disagree- you're working under the belief that you are *entitled* to free software upgrades.. In actual fact, you paid for a hardware device with a certain software load on it that you are licensed to use, there's nothing in any of the licensing agreements or contracts that you signed or clicked "accept" on that entitle you to updates and bug fixes. In fact in virtually *all* contracts for software-based products from all companies around the world, there is always a phrase or two in the license pertaining to "fitness for use", specifically absolving the publisher from all responsibility if the software doesn't function properly- ie, not only are you *not* entitled to updates and bug fixes, you are technically SOL if the version of software you get doesn't work at all..

    Now that said, in most cases, it is in the manufacturer's best interests to make sure the software works largely as intended and to offer bug fixes and updates; and most *do* offer updates, but not all offer them for free, because it *does* cost money to pay developers to develop code for features and to debug and patch, so at some point, they have to stop or reduce support to existing devices and focus on development for next generation devices for continued revenue. Additionally, if an update containing some groundbreaking new feature is leaked before official release, there could be loss of revenue due to competitors being able to examine the feature and duplicate it.. So there are some very real and potential costs to producing updates, and it is incorrect to assume that "no one loses money". I would agree however that in general, timely updates that include new features and bug fixes dramatically increase satisfaction with both manufacturer and carrier.

    Taking just a big of a sidetrack here, I want to get everyone thinking about revenue models for both device manufacturer and carrier.. In the BBOS model, by requiring BIS, BlackBerry could derive income from some of the monthly service charges for BIS access and with that revenue, pay its developers to release more frequent updates and bug fixes and to support older devices for longer, but in the BB10 world, unless you're using an EMM-regulated mode device with an enterprise service plan, BlackBerry no longer has BIS revenue, they can only rely on device sales and their share of app sales for their revenue; all the rest of your monthly fees now go solely to the carrier for access to their network and to repay them for the subsidy that they gave you on the device cost. Because the carriers derive revenue from network access, and they have to support many different brands and models of devices, they have a vested interest in ensuring that no device will cause problems on their network, which could cost a huge loss in revenue, so I fully support their right to conduct testing. That said, given that no device manufacturer uses their own custom baseband anymore, but instead rely on one of only a handful of vendors (eg Qualcomm), these days, testing is really a formality: if one brand of device works, you can reasonably expect that allowing other brands using the same baseband will not cause any additional problems on your network, so in general, "testing" these days is not that big a chore and, OS updates could come a lot more frequently.. But unfortunately, that's not how businesses work in the "real world".. To manage the release of new OSes requires resources (servers, bandwidth, human) and you need to do this for every brand/model of device that you sell, and that eats into the bottom line of the carrier, so their business model is to do the absolute minimum work needed because the majority of customers are pretty complacent and will suffer bugs (many simply don't know any better) and instead choose to address the individual cases with their "retentions" department.. ie, most users will put up with crappy service and bugs on their device and just buy a new device and sign a new contract if dissatisfied, but the few that call and complain, they'll get passed to the "retention" department which is empowered to offer incentives to the dissatisfied customer- they spend far less resources dealing with these "one off" complaints, even when they have to offer months free, new phones and things like that, than to increase the basic level of satisfaction across their entire customer base.. And that's why OS releases from the carrier are so slow.. Given that they cannot publicly bypass the carrier release process, I think BlackBerry is doing the best they can- remember, they had to downsize pretty significantly and their resources are limited and they have to focus on key features that they believe will help them sell phones and encourage developers to adopt their platform, but things that mostly work for the majority of users but have occasional buggy behaviour may necessarily receive reduced attention..

    My two cents. The software or leaks in question are not software packages that a developer somewhere is losing revenue over when we install them. We are talking about an operating system for a device that we have paid for. No one loses money, it's not like pirating software in the sense that revenue is lost by an innocent hard working developer. In this case we are looking for an operating system that will fix the bugs for a device we have paid for. Software that comes from the same company that manufactured our already paid for device. Software that they do not charge for when released. I found a leak that fixed the issues that I have had since I first turned on my device and I am now happy. Shouldn't the carrier and manufacturer also be happy that their customer is now happy instead of going to the competition? If/when Verizon ever releases a 10.1 version that works as good as the 2062 leak that I installed i will switch to it, but there is no reason I should have to continue to use a device that verizon doesn't fix. I like my BB and I want to keep it, without the leak I was getting tired of the reboots and other bugs.
    Mecca EL and Norg like this.
    06-26-13 10:18 AM
  23. Alberto8's Avatar
    Without the leaks, I would have returned my phone. I am on AT&T and my Z10 would reboot constantly, it was lagy and bug ridden. With the leaks, most of the problems are gone. Its clear BB has not fully baked os 10. They should not clamp down on the leaks since it helps them retain customes that otherwise would not put up with buggy, half baked software.
    06-26-13 10:19 AM
  24. gjcavana's Avatar
    I disagree- you're working under the belief that you are *entitled* to free software upgrades.
    I have never considered myself to be one of these people who believe they are "Entitled" to everything, but in this case yes I am entitled. I paid for a device and I am entitled for it to work as advertised. If it doesn't work as the seller advertised it is their responsibility to make it so.
    06-26-13 10:37 AM
  25. Norg's Avatar
    I disagree- you're working under the belief that you are *entitled* to free software upgrades...
    ....but things that mostly work for the majority of users but have occasional buggy behaviour may necessarily receive reduced attention..
    f_d, you raised some very interesting points, and many thanks for sharing your insight.
    Last edited by gliveron; 06-26-13 at 12:00 PM.
    Mecca EL likes this.
    06-26-13 11:48 AM
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